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Cardinal Law says mass

Cardinal Law Religion Catholicism Pedophile Priests

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#21 Lin731

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 11:32 AM

I don't understand why it's considered by some to be "Catholic bashing" to point out what a horrid message it sends to have Law in such a prominent position. The man may not have been a molester himself but his action in knowingly moving pedophile priest to other parishes may have led to the abuse of countless other children. Is it any wonder the church is losing parishioners in the US? I don't think you need to be Catholic to consider Law's prominence as a slap in the face to all the victims of priests abuses.
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#22 NeuralClone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:02 PM

Lin731, on Apr 12 2005, 12:32 PM, said:

I don't understand why it's considered by some to be "Catholic bashing" to point out what a horrid message it sends to have Law in such a prominent position.
It's bashing because the opinion of a few people in the religion is applied to the ENTIRE religion. Would you like to be judged based solely on the actions of a few people in an organization you belong to? Or what if a few members of your religion started spouting stuff most of the people in your faith don't agree with? Would you like to be judged based on that? That's all I'm asking for. If people are pissed at this one guy, then fine. Be pissed at him.

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The man may not have been a molester himself but his action in knowingly moving pedophile priest to other parishes may have led to the abuse of countless other children.
I never said I agreed with the man (I don't).

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Is it any wonder the church is losing parishioners in the US?
The situation is a bit more complicated than that.

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I don't think you need to be Catholic to consider Law's prominence as a slap in the face to all the victims of priests abuses.
I never said that had to be the case.

Edited by NeuralClone, 12 April 2005 - 12:05 PM.

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#23 NeuralClone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:12 PM

Norville, on Apr 12 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

I'm aware of that, and didn't realize that this thread was about all Catholics in the world -- I thought it was about those who'd harbor molestors and not help their targets. But maybe a dislike of C. Law means a dislike of all Catholics. Shows how much I know.
Then be specific. By simply saying the "Catholic Church" it's very easy to interpret that as "all Catholics." It's hard to tell who is being referred to when something is said like that. It's like referring to President Bush as "the Republican Party."

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Perhaps your Catholic education differed from Nonny's, and was more (gasp) liberal. Perhaps you're also younger than she is, and things had changed in time for your education. Perhaps other people have had different experiences. Just a thought.
I never thought of that! Thank you very much! :wideeyed:

So basically what you're saying is that since Nonny might be older than me and because she may have had a different experience, she can judge ALL members of a religion?

Edited by NeuralClone, 12 April 2005 - 12:13 PM.

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#24 Lin731

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:38 PM

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Then be specific. By simply saying the "Catholic Church" it's very easy to interpret that as "all Catholics." It's hard to tell who is being referred to when something is said like that. It's like referring to President Bush as "the Republican Party."

I think when people say "The Catholic Church" they are referring to the leadership of the church, not it's parishioners.

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It's bashing because the opinion of a few people in the religion is applied to the ENTIRE religion. Would you like to be judged based solely on the actions of a few people in an organization you belong to? Or what if a few members of your religion started spouting stuff most of the people in your faith don't agree with? Would you like to be judged based on that? That's all I'm asking for. If people are pissed at this one guy, then fine. Be pissed at him.

We aren't talking about individual followers of the faith, we're talking about the fact that a man that knowingly sent pedophile priest to other parishes to cover up the man's behavior is STILL embraced by the churches hierachy. That is VERY different than judging a whole religious sect based on the behavior of an individual member. Here you have the governing body of the church embracing this guy, that's a VERY different thing than Joe Schmoe at my local church spouting rhetoric that I find wrong and embarassing and then having outsiders judging my church based on his behavior.
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#25 Vapor Trails

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:54 PM

Here's an old thread I started some time ago that raised some eyebrows.

:whistle:  :xena:
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#26 sierraleone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:54 PM

^ NeuralClone (because DM AND Lin 731 got in here before I could hit submit post ;) ) I interpreted Norvilles last quote you posted as saying not to just discredited other people's opinions just because they aren't similar to your opinions, they may have had difference experiences to form them that are equally valid. That was just my interpretation though :)

Edited by sierraleone, 12 April 2005 - 01:21 PM.

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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#27 Vapor Trails

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 12:57 PM

sierraleone, on Apr 12 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

^ Lin 731 (because DM got in here before I could hit submit post ;) )....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


;p~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"

:p~  :hehe:  :xena: :p~
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Politicians are like bananas; they hang together, they're all yellow, and there's not a straight one among them.

"We're relevant for $ and a vote once every two years. Beyond that, we're completely irrelevant, except of course to consume, and preach the gospel according to [insert political demigod here]."--Cait

#28 Lin731

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:17 PM

Interesting thread to be sure but I'm not understanding how it applies to my post? Did I give the impression I was judging the entire Catholic faith? If I did, it was not my intent but I WILL say this, I'd not give a dime to ANY church that allowed someone to remain in a position of power that did what Law had done and it might be enough for me to walk away from that religion. That is my personal POV though. Sometimes the only way to bring about changes that NEED to be made is through voting with your feet. I might love my faith but I don't think I could continue within it under the circumstances. If I were Catholic, I'd be DEEPLY offended by Law's continued presense and more so by the church hiearchy covering it up for 30 years.
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#29 sierraleone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 01:21 PM

^ ack! sorry! both DM and YOU Lin, got a post in before me, so I didn't see it, when I saw DM, I just went one post above his to see who wrote it, which was you, but I didn't look at the reply, just the name..... it was the above post - NeuralClone's reply - which I was responding to :blush: sorry, going to edit :blush:

Edited by sierraleone, 12 April 2005 - 01:24 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#30 Kosh

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:02 PM

G1223, on Apr 11 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

Law was not charged with a crime. Nor investigated for one. I do not like the man but some of this is just sour grapes. The courts have made their verdicts the payments have been made and Law was removed from his office here in the states. He was not put into a office where he could do anything to effect the lives of other people as he once did.

Dislike the man as much as you want,I know I do. But this has the feel of wanting to get a pound of flesh after the courts have made their ruling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>




Take him off the streets and promote him to working in the Vatican. He should have been charged with aiding and abeting Pedophiles.
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#31 Norville

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 02:47 PM

sierraleone said:

I interpreted Norvilles last quote you posted as saying not to just discredited other people's opinions just because they aren't similar to your opinions, they may have had difference experiences to form them that are equally valid. That was just my interpretation though

Thanks for *someone* being able to understand what I'm saying. It seems, far too often, as if what I try to say is intentionally mangled in its interpretation -- perhaps by the agenda of the person (mis)interpreting it. I'm left feeling, pretty much all the time, that I'm speaking a different version of English, because so many people haven't a clue what I mean when I say things, yet I think I'm stating things clearly.

me said:

NeuralClone said:

You're saying we are programmed to believe everything nuns and priests say? I'm sorry but that is a load of crap. We no longer live in the Middle Ages. We can think for ourselves, thank you very much.
Perhaps your Catholic education differed from Nonny's, and was more (gasp) liberal. Perhaps you're also younger than she is, and things had changed in time for your education. Perhaps other people have had different experiences. Just a thought.

See, I thought what I said made sense. I tossed some thoughts into the air. I said that perhaps your experience of Catholic education differed from Nonny's -- she had a very rough, bad time of it, from her accounts. You didn't. That doesn't mean her experience is invalid. Badness happens, even if it didn't happen to you, in other words. Just because your experience is great doesn't invalidate the negative experiences that others have had.

Was that really so difficult to understand? If so, then I give up.
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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#32 Lin731

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 03:12 PM

Norville,
You speak English perfectly. I understood the point you were trying to make. Not everyone will have the same experiences within the same faith or in different time frames.
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#33 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 03:29 PM

NeuralClone, on Apr 12 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

Norville, on Apr 12 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

I'm aware of that, and didn't realize that this thread was about all Catholics in the world -- I thought it was about those who'd harbor molestors and not help their targets. But maybe a dislike of C. Law means a dislike of all Catholics. Shows how much I know.
Then be specific. By simply saying the "Catholic Church" it's very easy to interpret that as "all Catholics." It's hard to tell who is being referred to when something is said like that. It's like referring to President Bush as "the Republican Party."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Make of this whatever you will, but I didn't learn critical thinking until I escaped the hellhole of Catholic school and began to get an actual education.  It's very easy to interpret things any way you want to without the benefit of critical thinking.  

When you say the Catholic Church, do you mean all Catholics?  I sure don't.  I mean the patriarchal, inflexible, authoritarian, misogynistic, money-sucking institution and those who run it.  I do not blame the folks in the pews.  I blame the pope, the cardinals and the bishops.  The folks in the pews don't set policy, and, bless their hearts, they don't much follow it either.  

NeuralClone, on Apr 12 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

Quote

Perhaps your Catholic education differed from Nonny's, and was more (gasp) liberal. Perhaps you're also younger than she is, and things had changed in time for your education. Perhaps other people have had different experiences. Just a thought.
I never thought of that! Thank you very much! :wideeyed:

So basically what you're saying is that since Nonny might be older than me and because she may have had a different experience, she can judge ALL members of a religion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So basically what you're saying is that because you're still a Catholic, I have no right to express my opinions?  And that because you're still a Catholic, I have no right to pick and choose which Catholics I like, which Catholics I dislike, which I approve of and which I don't?  Because you're still a Catholic, I have to group every Catholic together and make one judgement about all y'all?  Here's a clue: I do not!  I can like the Catholics I like, approve of the ones I approve of, and the hell with the rest.  

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#34 Nonny

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 03:41 PM

Norville, on Apr 12 2005, 11:47 AM, said:

See, I thought what I said made sense. I tossed some thoughts into the air. I said that perhaps your experience of Catholic education differed from Nonny's -- she had a very rough, bad time of it, from her accounts. You didn't. That doesn't mean her experience is invalid. Badness happens, even if it didn't happen to you, in other words. Just because your experience is great doesn't invalidate the negative experiences that others have had.

Was that really so difficult to understand? If so, then I give up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

{{{{{{{Norville}}}}}}}

Not difficult to understand at all.

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#35 Cheile

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 04:02 PM

Kosh, on Apr 12 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

Take him off the streets and promote him to working in the Vatican. He should have been charged with aiding and abeting Pedophiles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


well said, Kosh.  they charge the drivers of getaway cars in other crimes.  so it's fair that they should charge someone who covered up sexual child abuse.

they likely never will but they should.

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#36 NeuralClone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 05:37 PM

Norville, on Apr 12 2005, 03:47 PM, said:

See, I thought what I said made sense. I tossed some thoughts into the air. I said that perhaps your experience of Catholic education differed from Nonny's -- she had a very rough, bad time of it, from her accounts. You didn't. That doesn't mean her experience is invalid. Badness happens, even if it didn't happen to you, in other words. Just because your experience is great doesn't invalidate the negative experiences that others have had.

Was that really so difficult to understand? If so, then I give up.
No, that isn't too hard to understand. I also never said that I haven't had bad experiences with the Church (I have had some).

Where did I say her experience was invalid? If I implied that then that was by mistake because that wasn't what I was getting at.

I merely pointing out that not everyone blindly follows what the leaders of the Church say. I'm sorry if this seems like a strange concept but it's true.
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#37 NeuralClone

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 05:52 PM

Nonny, on Apr 12 2005, 04:29 PM, said:

Make of this whatever you will, but I didn't learn critical thinking until I escaped the hellhole of Catholic school and began to get an actual education.  It's very easy to interpret things any way you want to without the benefit of critical thinking.
I'm really sorry you had that sort of experience because that isn't anything like the experience I've had.

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So basically what you're saying is that because you're still a Catholic, I have no right to express my opinions?  And that because you're still a Catholic, I have no right to pick and choose which Catholics I like, which Catholics I dislike, which I approve of and which I don't?  Because you're still a Catholic, I have to group every Catholic together and make one judgement about all y'all?  Here's a clue: I do not!  I can like the Catholics I like, approve of the ones I approve of, and the hell with the rest. 
*sighs*

No. That is NOT what I'm saying at all. You can say whatever the hell you want about anyone you want and I won't stop you. I had a problem with the following statement:

Quote

Catholic parents, many of whom were Catholic school children in their day, are programmed to believe anything a priest or nun tells them, so Catholic school children face double jeopardy when they have any kind of grievance against one.
That might be true in your case but not in the general sense. If you just meant in your experience then fine. I'm sorry and I take back what I said. I do have a problem if you were implying that all Catholic parents are like that because that simply isn't true. That's where I'm coming from.

Again, you have right to your opinion. I never said that you didn't have the right to your opinion. I don't know where you and Norville are getting that from.

And for the record, I strongly disagree with the stance this Cardinal is taking and I'm disturbed that he wants to have this man have a part in choosing the new pope.
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#38 G1223

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Posted 12 April 2005 - 07:24 PM

Kosh, on Apr 12 2005, 07:02 PM, said:

Take him off the streets and promote him to working in the Vatican. He should have been charged with aiding and abeting Pedophiles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



And the courts could do that. But they did not. The Pope took Law in becasue he felt his friend was getting a bad rap for this. People do this all the time for their friends. For all we know Law may have been asked to give a mass in the pope's last wishes.
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#39 Nonny

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:59 AM

G1223, on Apr 12 2005, 04:24 PM, said:

For all we know Law may have been asked to give a mass in the pope's last wishes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the privilege came with the job.  

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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#40 Nonny

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 11:08 AM

NeuralClone, on Apr 12 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

So basically what you're saying is that since Nonny might be older than me and because she may have had a different experience, she can judge ALL members of a religion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No matter what else you say to me, about me, about the Catholic church, I'll keep going back to this, your previous statement, and I'll keep pointing out that you are responsible for wrongfully accusing me of lumping all Catholics together as one.  Considering how often I rave about the book, Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, by the Catholic theologian Uta Ranke-Heinemann, it seems more than a little odd that anyone could accuse me of lumping all Catholics together with the men who run the church.  :rolleyes:

Nonny

Edited by Nonny, 13 April 2005 - 11:09 AM.

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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