[writergroupie]

Themis, on Apr 22 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

Ooooh, Zack and I agree!!!  I liked Broken Hammer a lot. 

I've always figured a lot of things happened to great and even mediocre scripts because of production issues and budget issues.  Not to mention the 42 minutes of story on screen in an hour.  Such is episodic tv.

The sort of thing I'm hoping to hear more about from Jill's book - or more likely from the encyclopedia she's trimming down to a book...

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL I just finished my 'Broken Hammer' entry two days ago - though I may now have to update it a bit, given Zack's comments.

Jill *who, for the record, hated Broken Hammer for its changes in Trance and pointless violence and also thought it marked the beginning of the change to the show, but learned some interesting things about the whys and wherefores behind the episode which you can read about in the book*

[Christopher]

MuseZack, on Apr 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

On the page, the Kalderans were smart, effective adversaries.   It was on the stage that the anarcho-syndicalist feathered velociraptors became an idiotic critter wave of Ninja Turtles.   But you know what?  Andromeda always had problems with execution, from the day we all cringed when the dailies of the Than pilot in "Under The Night" came back.  We were making a hugely ambitious science fiction show with heavy mandatory action elements for a miniscule budget with a crew that had never done it before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah... there was a huge mismatch between the ambition of the creative staff and the abilities of the production team. Even when the ideas were good, their realization was cheesy and unconvincing. This was a concept that deserved, and probably needed, to be done by the likes of the Henson company and the other folks who made Farscape. The only way it could've really been done right was with that kind of budget, experience and imagination. Although the folks who make Stargate could've probably made a fair go of it too. Anyway, it definitely ended up in the hands of the wrong production company. Or, to be even-handed about it, it was the wrong kind of idea for that production company. It wasn't something that could be done effectively with limited budget and experience.

This post has been edited by Christopher: 22 April 2005 - 05:24 PM

[gaius claudius]

ChicaFrom3, on Apr 19 2005, 07:28 PM, said:

RichieAvatar, on Apr 19 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

...it's all canon because, through the Route of Ages, all universes exist. Somewhere, Robert's version did happen...we just didn't get to SEE it. But, thanks to our own RoA (RHW), we will know of it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really like this theory...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like this theory so much...I also use it to describe what happened to the 2nd year of Space:1999, year 3 of the Six Million Dollar Man (and all subsequent movies ) ...and Galactica 1980


gc

Back from the Hinterlands...

[DWF]

gaius claudius, on Apr 22 2005, 06:45 PM, said:

I like this theory so much...I also use it to describe what happened to the 2nd year of Space:1999, year 3 of the Six Million Dollar Man (and all subsequent movies ) ...and Galactica 1980    
gc 

What was wrong with third season of The Million Dollar Man? The bigfoot eps. are among my favorites and I liked the ones I can remember.

And as for Space: 1999.

http://64.33.77.146/...html?1108679059

This post has been edited by DWF: 22 April 2005 - 09:24 PM

[enTranced]

MuseZack, on Apr 22 2005, 09:44 PM, said:

eT, while I respect your opinion on these matters, most of what you're complaining about vis a vis "Broken Hammer" are execution rather than script issues.  There's the Trance's tail issue to be sure, but none of us regarded it as fatal because the secret plan was to have her grow it back in a future episode after we had fixed the practical problems and the heat had died down (Were we being unrealistic about our collective ability to talk TPTB out of decisions we didn't like?  In retrospect, yeah, but that was the thinking at the time).  But there's nothing inherently wrong with a siege in an enclosed space against enemies we barely see until the end scenario. 

Yes, there is nothing wrong with the scenario done right, but Broken Hammer was way, WAY far from right. Sure the show had production problems from day one, that's normal in any show but grunting bad guys who march two by two to their deaths is just BAD any way you look at it. Giving them something to SAY (more then death squeals!) can't cost that much!

Quote

And I'm pretty proud of the script that J.P. wrote and the rest of us did some tweaking on.  On the page, the Kalderans were smart, effective adversaries.  It was on the stage that the anarcho-syndicalist feathered velociraptors became an idiotic critter wave of Ninja Turtles.  But you know what?  Andromeda always had problems with execution, from the day we all cringed when the dailies of the Than pilot in "Under The Night" came back.  We were making a hugely ambitious science fiction show with heavy mandatory action elements for a miniscule budget with a crew that had never done it before.

Yup, covered that in my other post, even when you guys were rocking the show had problems but the quality always, ALWAYS outshone the budget problems until the second season.

You guys should be proud of that first year. I have no doubt that if Tribune had been more supportive you would have been challenging the big boys.

enTranced

This post has been edited by enTranced: 22 April 2005 - 09:22 PM

[enTranced]

Ilisidi, on Apr 22 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Just like the old days -- eT in the thick of it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's like i never left!

enTranced

[Gefiltefishmon]

Oh Frajous Day!

That something which began so wonderfully and then was turned so *EXPLETIVE DELETED* and now we shall see what was meant to be!!!!


Oh Frajous Day!!

[GiGi]

enTranced, on Apr 22 2005, 07:21 PM, said:

Yes, there is nothing wrong with the scenario done right, but Broken Hammer was way, WAY far from right. Sure the show had production problems from day one, that's normal in any show but grunting bad guys who march two by two to their deaths is just BAD any way you look at it. Giving them something to SAY (more then death squeals!) can't cost that much!

I agree. The pregnant lady subplot was so annoying. It had potential, but the way the whole episode came off was... well, to be honest, I could barely watch. I was a little nervious too since I was watch reruns of Earth Final Conflict and seeing the slow unwinding of that show. I was hoping my "bad feeling" would go away. It did not. It only got worse and this season I watched about ten minutes of one or two episodes before the headache returned and I turned the TV off. Watching my tropical fish swim is infinitely more entertaining than season five of Nu-Drom. (hey ET it REALLY is like old times!!!)

Quote

Yup, covered that in my other post, even when you guys were rocking the show had problems but the quality always, ALWAYS outshone the budget problems until the second season.

You guys should be proud of that first year. I have no doubt that if Tribune had been more supportive you would have been challenging the big boys.
enTranced

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree, in the first season (and the beginning of season two) the quality writing was what drew me in, cheesy effects don't bother me, after all I still love original Star Trek!!!

I would say that Broken Hammer was the warning shot. Ourobourous (sp?) was not the death shot, that was actually a good episode. THat awful episode with Molly was to me the death blow. There were good Zack/Ash episodes here and there, but for the overall series, it was all too obvious that it was all over.

This post has been edited by GiGi: 22 April 2005 - 11:14 PM

[G1223]

enTranced, on Apr 23 2005, 02:21 AM, said:

I have no doubt that if Tribune had been more supportive you would have been challenging the big boys.

enTranced

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tribune? Supportive? That is almost funny. Just like the words Tribune and Entertainment. They just do not seem to fit with my veiw of the world.

[White Tiger]

It's a crime it ran under such poor management for so long....like watching someone you love die of cancer...

[Godeskian]

White Tiger, on Apr 23 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

like watching someone you love die of cancer...

A bit harsh don't you think. There are still plenty of fans of Season 5 andromeda that read, post and lurk here.

[SnarkyPants]

Eee, thank-you-thank-you-thank you for not going into flames... I saw all the posts and got worried, got all, "What have I DONE by talking about Broken Hammer?!" So, thanks for being the cool folks that you are.

Ee, regrowing tail. That would've been cool. *g* Especially if everyone on the crew had been shocked and surprised and Trance had acted like it was no big deal. Harper could've made some sort of lewd comment.... That would've been great.

It's really interesting hearing about the tensions and challenges that happen in trying to get something on screen in a way that's true to how it is on page.

[Cardie]

I remember BH being the subject of one of my more withering reviews, and I still stick by that. The loss of the tail was really only a convenient symbol for what happened later, but I thought long stretches of the dialogue in the episode were simply dreadful, and great dialogue was usually something we could always expect on the show, even with production glitches and occasional plot holes.

When I go back and watch UTN, that Than costume really doesn't bother me. Dawn was such a great character and very well voiced. eT is right; it was because the Kalderans looked stupid and said nothing that they wre such a letdown, and they presaged hordes of silent critter waves to come.

Cardie

[CurlyKirsty]

It is interesting that despite all the problems with the budget restraints and Engles weird brain it still made it to the 100th episode and we are still fanatical to the point of discussing this version v that version etc. I am just grateful to have been here to witness this unusual fandom and experience a small part of it. Looking forward to the next reveal in this saga.....

[Christopher]

Cardie, on Apr 23 2005, 06:08 AM, said:

When I go back and watch UTN, that Than costume really doesn't bother me.  Dawn was such a great character and very well voiced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By an actress named Janyse Jaud, who's done numerous voice roles in animation. Elizabeth Thai was in the costume.

I had mixed feelings about the Than costume. The design itself was implausible; it's unlikely that aliens would duplicate the appearances of Earth animal types to that extent, and the compound eyes of insects just can't work on a human-sized scale, since the resolution was too low. (Although Robert offered a pretty good retcon when I pointed this out initially, saying that the Than had additional, chamber-type eyes for detail vision and used the compound eyes only for sensing large-scale motion and such. Dawn did in fact appear to have 2-4 smaller eyes. But the revised Than designs seen in later episodes didn't.)

But at the same time, it was just so refreshing to see an alien that wasn't just a human with latex bumps. And since it was an exoskeletal creature, the texture and discrete pieces of the costume weren't so implausible in appearance.

[Rayhana]

I'm anxious to see what the original vision was for these characters. Looking forward to it.

[MuseZack]

Cardie, on Apr 23 2005, 10:08 AM, said:

I remember BH being the subject of one of my more withering reviews, and I still stick by that.  The loss of the tail was really only a convenient symbol for what happened later, but I thought long stretches of the dialogue in the episode were simply dreadful, and great dialogue was usually something we could always expect on the show, even with production glitches and occasional plot holes.

When I go back and watch UTN, that Than costume really doesn't bother me.  Dawn was such a great character and very well voiced.  eT is right; it was because the Kalderans looked stupid and said nothing that they wre such a letdown, and they presaged hordes of silent critter waves to come.

Cardie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if the dialogue didn't work for you that's one thing (I thought it was fine, but wouldn't presume to talk you out of your opinion), but I don't see anything inherently wrong with non-speaking bad guys, especially in the context of a siege story. Go watch John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13-- the gang members assaulting the building are essentially silent, and it makes what happens all the more ominous and creepy. Now obviously with Broken Hammer we were aiming for a sci fi take on Rio Bravo and failed, but I'd still argue that the failures were more in the matters of execution than the validity of the basic creative choices behind the episode.

[DWF]

Quote

Now obviously with Broken Hammer we were aiming for a sci fi take on Rio Bravo and failed, but I'd still argue that the failures were more in the matters of execution than the validity of the basic creative choices behind the episode.

Generally speaking I agree with you, but I can see other people's POV on it here's some of Jammer's review of Broken Hammer.

http://www.st-hypert...okenhammer.html

Quote

I'm beginning to realize that when it comes to violence, Andromeda doesn't bring any kind of sophisticated edge to it (like, say, DS9's "Rocks and Shoals"), and instead simply glorifies it. It's shallow and glib, played for shoot-em-up "fun." I'm certainly not one of these anti-TV-violence crusaders who will gripe that there's too much violence corrupting our fragile youth. But I'm also not going to sit here and tell you that a big shootout with a bunch of incompetent Ninja Turtles is thoughtful or meaningful in any way. I guess this is the difference between smarter shows and Tribune "Action Hour" Entertainment.

What the creators of Andromeda have yet to realize is that intensity isn't determined simply by the quantity of violence. It's all about the context and feelings involved. What could've been a deeper ending with more plausible combat (remember DS9's "Siege of AR-558"?) is reduced to a laughable cartoon.

A shame, because the theme on leadership is a relevant one. If only the producers would show better leadership for this show by not using their action payoffs to pander to the lowest common denominator, we'd all be better off.

Personally though, I thought the Ortiz/Cory thing is what messed to story from a writing standpoint, I thought the final action scene was alittle confusing at times, but it remind me of Farscape's Different Destinations at least there the scene wasn't so dark that it was hard to see some of the scene, but I do agree much of the ep.'s problem was in execution.

[Christopher]

MuseZack, on Apr 23 2005, 10:42 AM, said:

Well, if the dialogue didn't work for you that's one thing (I thought it was fine, but wouldn't presume to talk you out of your opinion), but I don't see anything inherently wrong with non-speaking bad guys, especially in the context of a siege story.  Go watch John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13-- the gang members assaulting the building are essentially silent, and it makes what happens all the more ominous and creepy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I couldn't help being more reminded of WWII movies depicting the Japanese as faceless, dehumanized hordes to be exterminated. Also, it wouldn't have been so bad if we'd seen the Kalderans before, had a chance to understand who they were as a people. For their debut appearance to be as a faceless horde was a major letdown to those of us who are interested in world- and species-building in our SF.

[Cardie]

Just look by contrast at how well the "desperate siege" plot worked in IHCRAL. Most of the Magog were non-speaking faceless hordes who were mown down--and Jammer hated them, too--but we knew what made Magog tick from a whole season's worth of episodes, and we did have Bloodmist speaking enough for us to see the "mind" behind Magog behavior.

Cardie