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Sex With Minors: Teachers & Students

Crime Sex with minors teachers students

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#21 Anastashia

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 06:59 PM

In the matter of the skirts there's very little chance that there are any rules requiring girls to wear them short, much more that there's a rule requireing them to at least be a certain length. If the girls' skirts are too short it's because they are pulling them up as high as they can get away with, not because anyone attached to the school told them to wear them that way.

Oh and I went to public school. I remember quite clearly, I think I was in fourth grade, being embarassed by a teacher when on a cold, snowy day I wore a nicely matched pair of pants with a top I normally wore a similar skirt with. In other word's girls didn't wear pants to school.

Edited by Anastashia, 21 April 2005 - 07:02 PM.

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#22 DWF

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 07:59 PM

Nonny, on Apr 21 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

Digital Man, on Apr 21 2005, 01:37 PM, said:

BTW-you being a parent HM, I'm curious to know what you think of my comments on the dresses girls wear for Catholic schools. I'd much prefer pants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pants?!  On Catholic school girls?!!  Surely you jest!!!  The nuns would have kittens!!!!  :eek2:  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p

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The girls in my Catholic grade school and high school were allowed to wear pants.
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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 08:14 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 21 2005, 12:25 PM, said:

CONTROVERSIAL POST:

We discussed some time back the idea of separating boys from girls in school... lots of reasons were given why this might be considered discriminatory.  But here's a good enough reason - to have male teachers for male students, and female teachers for female students.  There's time enough to integrate the sexes, and their entire lives are not segregated... but the vulnerability of teens, the fact that their hormones are now wide awake, and the fact that many teachers JUST left their teens themselves, makes for a potentially disasterous situation.

A 25 year old woman is usually much more mature than a 17-18 year old boy, but an 18 year old boy is often taller than many 25 year old women, has emerged from puberty with manly features, and is beginning to grow into manhood.  It doesn't strike me as so odd that a 25 year old woman would find herself attracted to a 17 or 18 year old boy.  Ten years from now, she'll be 35 and he'll be 27 or 28.  That's not an unreasonable match.  What makes it unreasonable at this stage are two things: 1.  He's JUST arrived into manhood, and she shouldn't be hawking like a vulture to pick at his innocence (never mind that lots of boys this age aren't "innocent" and are likely hitting on the teacher.  The point is that mentally they aren't where she is). 2. She's in authority over him.

Likewise, male teachers finding themselves attracted to 16 and 17 year old girls are in an awkward position.  Young girls that age are flirts.  They WANT to feel the extent of their powers of attraction, and their hormones are driving them in ways they don't even understand.  A guy who's only a few years older than these girls, who at this age are far more aggressive than people might think, is pretty vulnerable.

Again - I hold the teachers firmly responsible for their behaviors.  But there is a certain age when I think that schools, and society have to exercise a bit more responsibility - have to acknowledge the reality that this is a vulnerable and explosive combination, and that we live in a society that is oversexed in the first place, that cultural mores are in transition, making things that once seemed absolutely wrong suddenly maybe not "so bad," and need to make adjustments in the classroom that reflect these realities.

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Shall we also have only fathers raise sons and mothers daughters?  Obviously in society the two genders have to have contact with eachother.  Sheltering them from this with artificially imposed separation that has nothing to do with reality does them a disservice in the department of educating them for life in the real world.  The teachers need to be severely punished but you know what, a 16 or 18 year old is old enough to know better and should ALSO face consequeces.  

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#24 Nonny

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 08:47 PM

DWF, on Apr 21 2005, 04:59 PM, said:

Nonny, on Apr 21 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

Digital Man, on Apr 21 2005, 01:37 PM, said:

BTW-you being a parent HM, I'm curious to know what you think of my comments on the dresses girls wear for Catholic schools. I'd much prefer pants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pants?!  On Catholic school girls?!!  Surely you jest!!!  The nuns would have kittens!!!!  :eek2:  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p

Nonny

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The girls in my Catholic grade school and high school were allowed to wear pants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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#25 Avalon

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 10:06 PM

Nonny, on Apr 21 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

I get to see Eric Idle Sunday!  :happy:  :happy:  :happy:

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WHAT?!!!   :eek4:   You get to see Spamalot?  My daughter's been bugging me to take her for ages.  Or is EI appearing by himself in some other venue on Sunday?  [Invader Zim]TELLLL meeeee![/Invader Zim]  

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#26 QueenTiye

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 10:12 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 21 2005, 09:14 PM, said:

Shall we also have only fathers raise sons and mothers daughters?

Even if the case of parents were in anyway similar to the case of teachers, you answered the question already here:

Quote

Obviously in society the two genders have to have contact with eachother.

School isn't the only place for the genders to mix.
  

Quote

Sheltering them from this with artificially imposed separation that has nothing to do with reality does them a disservice in the department of educating them for life in the real world.

This isn't a global issue - its an issue of separating teachers from children at critical ages for both.

Quote

The teachers need to be severely punished but you know what, a 16 or 18 year old is old enough to know better and should ALSO face consequeces. 

Lil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Agreed.

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#27 nutmeg

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:15 AM

I have been a teacher for 20+ years. It's very simple. Adults don't have sex with children, period. No excuses. Teachers don't have sex with students, period.  No excuses.

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#28 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:57 AM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 21 2005, 08:12 PM, said:

Even if the case of parents were in anyway similar to the case of teachers, you answered the question already here:

I think they have lots of similarities but I'll just point out chief adult authority figure and leave it at that.  And I also think that teachers spend a lot of time with students, in many cases, more time than the parents.  

Quote

School isn't the only place for the genders to mix.

Yes but kids spend a lot of time in school and the purpose of school is to educate kids, not teach them to exist in states of segregation that do not reflect the real world.
  

Quote

This isn't a global issue - its an issue of separating teachers from children at critical ages for both.

On what basis?  The basis that a teacher of the opposite sex is automatically an unhealthy influence?  That would bring me back to my original question.  And I won't even go into issues regarding adults abusing kids of the same sex.

Segregation will not solve anything.  To me it's tantamount to sweeping the problem under the rug.

IMO of course.

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#29 UoR11

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 01:14 AM

One other huge probelm with segragating teachers by geneder is the massive imbalence between male and female teachers. If you limited it to high schools, you might be able to scare up enough male teachers, but it'll probably come to either lower standards for male teachers or larger classes for the boys, neither of which is good.
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#30 Smiley

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 08:09 AM

Separating sexes won't help. I know it has been glossed over, but you'll still get the occasional homosexual romance. In fact in the Victorian/Romantic days of England, wasn't sexual "experimentation" at all boys schools more common due to the same-sex relationships fostered in the classroom? It's all based on the teacher-students realationship. Teachers have to care about the student, and sometimes they (stupidly) go to far. Operative word is sometimes. What was this, five out of how many teachers? Yes, I know, even one of these types of relationships is bad (unless both are of age...even then it if-y), but it is hardly an epidemic. Most blame goes to the teacher, some should go to the students, and of course let us not forget the parents.

Oh and I was only joking about the skirts. Perhas they were innocent when they were designed but the fact that they represent that which is forbidden could be what put the sexuallity (fetish?) into them.
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#31 Anakam

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 08:26 AM

I'd be very interested to know how long these five teachers have been in the classroom.

I also have to wonder, because I've been a secondary education major, if these teachers are at least partly the product of a stressed higher education system trying to get out enough teachers to accommodate the current needs and the anticipated needs.  I realize that's absolutely no excuse, DM, so you don't need to tell me. ;)

Oh, and it's not just Catholic schools that require girls to wear skirts. ;)  My cousin had to wear skirts to school & college, I think.
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#32 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:08 AM

I'm in favor of segregating children by gender for lots of reasons, but that's another debate.  In this case, the issue is very simple (to me).  Male teachers and male students, female teachers and female students.  

Arguments that schools are for educating children in the "real world" are somewhat spurious in my opinion.  Schools are one aspect of socialization - but not the whole of it; nor should they be.  They do NOT exist to teach socialization - thats a byproduct of being in any social situation, and arguably one of the WORST aspects of school.  Socialization in school teaches all of the wrong ideas, including over-obedience to authority, top-down learning to the exclusion of almost all else, overvaluing of sedentary-based learning versus active based learning, etc.  In the case of boys, it teaches that social skills that come more naturally to girls are more valued, while it also fosters a competitiveness that comes more naturally to boys.  (These are broad strokes - I believe firmly that boys and girls have both sets of skills, but in general studies have supported the idea that these are general trends.)  If segregation by gender is yet one more socialization ill foisted upon the school system, it is at least one that has a definitive upside - the protection of children.

In general, parents being authority figures over their children is indeed a valid point - but parents also have a relationship to the child that provides a barrier of protection - most parents don't develop sexual desires toward their own children.  In the case of teachers, kids are essentially strangers to them - people they just met, and with whom they have no emotional relationship that would act as a barrier if their own moral sense doesn't kick in regarding minors.  

The truth is, with the low valuation of teachers, we are not able to really solve the problems effectively.  Low male-female ratio of teachers, teachers too young to teach high school nevertheless doing so, both are symptoms of an overtasked job market.  My idea of segregating genders would only compound that problem.  But to my mind, compounding the problem to force a solution is worth it.

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#33 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:20 AM

Vicious Maggot, on Apr 22 2005, 09:09 AM, said:

Separating sexes won't help. I know it has been glossed over, but you'll still get the occasional homosexual romance. In fact in the Victorian/Romantic days of England, wasn't sexual "experimentation" at all boys schools more common due to the same-sex relationships fostered in the classroom? It's all based on the teacher-students realationship. Teachers have to care about the student, and sometimes they (stupidly) go to far. Operative word is sometimes. What was this, five out of how many teachers? Yes, I know, even one of these types of relationships is bad (unless both are of age...even then it if-y), but it is hardly an epidemic. Most blame goes to the teacher, some should go to the students, and of course let us not forget the parents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If classroom gender separation occurred, the only way to prevent boys schools from being overdominated by predatory teachers would be to price salaries such as to make the job competitive to any male.  If that were done, then the number of males likely to be sexually interested in other males, would fall to the statistical average, making the average number of teachers likely to be predatory on young boys even lower.  If the statistical average is that 10% of males are homosexual (for argument's sake), we can assume that the majority of those would NOT be pedophiles, so the number of teachers likely to prey on the boys in their care would be very low.

In the case of female teachers, the field is already dominated by women, so separating the genders would allow the distribution to be more selective (less female teachers needed in most cases, save some specialized fields).  Priced competitively, the industry could also attract more professionals to the market, thereby allowing the industry to effectively cull out many of the teachers who have been hired at less than acceptable standards.

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#34 WildChildCait

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:25 AM

actually HM, most pedophiles are heterosexual, not homosexual
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#35 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 09:28 AM

Which reinforces my point... :)

That's the entire point of my argument in this thread - that male teachers should be teaching male students and female teachers should be teaching female students. However, since the concern about homosexual teachers approaching their students was expressed, I also addressed that concern.

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Edited by Handmaiden07, 22 April 2005 - 10:26 AM.

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#36 Rhea

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 11:53 AM

Chaddee, on Apr 22 2005, 06:25 AM, said:

actually HM, most pedophiles are heterosexual, not homosexual

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What Chaddee said.

And I agree with Lil. The assumption that separating sexes would solve anything is naive at best.  The issue is adults controlling themselves. Period. And there is no excuse for becoming involved with a student (no matter the sexual orientation of either party involved).

Edited by Rhea, 22 April 2005 - 12:08 PM.

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#37 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:30 PM

Rhea, on Apr 22 2005, 12:53 PM, said:

Chaddee, on Apr 22 2005, 06:25 AM, said:

actually HM, most pedophiles are heterosexual, not homosexual

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What Chaddee said.

And I agree with Lil. The assumption that separating sexes would solve anything is naive at best.  The issue is adults controlling themselves. Period. And there is no excuse for becoming involved with a student (no matter the sexual orientation of either party involved).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



???  Explain to me how that works?  First you agree with Chaddee who confirms  my central point that predatory behavior is likely to occur in heterosexual situations, and then you say separating the sexes wouldn't solve anything and is naive.  On what basis?  The immediate thing it would solve is obviously removing the most likely source of problems!

Adults SHOULD control themselves.  But I'm betting that adults who CAN control themselves, already do.

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#38 Rhea

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:39 PM

^I agree that most pedophiles are heterosexual.  However, I disagree that separating the sexes will in any way protect the kids. In point of fact, at least in my experience, most single-sex schools employ teachers of both sexes. I fail to see how that solves anything. And I'd be willing to be it would be considered sexual discrimination to set up a school restricted to all male or all female teachers. So while I agree on the one point, I strongly disagree on the others. Does that help?

And if my ex, who is a Scot, is anything to judge by, educating children in single-sex schools leaves them remarkably ignorant and unable to cope with the opposite sex. :p~ And in the UK, at least (again, from what I'm told), single sex schools do not rescue children from predatory teachers or other children, for that matter. The boys just have sex with each other.  :devil:

Edited by Rhea, 22 April 2005 - 12:42 PM.

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#39 Godeskian

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:48 PM

hmph, when you see the yearly crop of 13 year old mothers from their classmates, you're right that the UK teaches kids to 'cope' with the opposite sex :rolleyes:

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#40 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:48 PM

Rhea, on Apr 22 2005, 01:39 PM, said:

^I agree that most pedophiles are heterosexual.  However, I disagree that separating the sexes will in any way protect the kids. In point of fact, at least in my experience, most single-sex schools employ teachers of both sexes. I fail to see how that solves anything. And I'd be willing to be it would be considered sexual discrimination to set up a school restricted to all male or all female teachers. So while I agree on the one point, I strongly disagree on the others. Does that help?

Well, the issue of discrimination is another thing.  The fact that the schools would be segregated at all would be considered discriminatory.  I disagree fundamentally that it would necessarily be so, or that if it turned out to be so, that the solution would be reintegration instead of correcting the inequities. But my position in this entire thread was about segregating students by gender, in schools taught by same gender teachers.

Quote

And if my ex, who is a Scot, is anything to judge by, educating children in single-sex schools leaves them remarkably ignorant and unable to cope with the opposite sex. :p~ And in the UK, at least (again, from what I'm told), single sex schools do not rescue children from predatory teachers or other children, for that matter. The boys just have sex with each other.  :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, there are anecdotes in every case.  And kids having sex with one another is a whole different problem, unrelated to this thread.

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