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Sex With Minors: Teachers & Students

Crime Sex with minors teachers students

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#41 Smiley

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:54 PM

Rhea, on Apr 22 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

he boys just have sex with each other.  :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's what I had suggested. In my post I did not meant to focus on the teacher-students aspect, but the idea that the boys would seek "experimental" relationships with each other since there is a lack of outlet for their developing emotions/feelings. I do not know how it would happen today, but I believe that was almost a norm in the days of high brow prep schools. Maybe we should segregate everyone because something may happen. Like I said it was five teachers out of how many? It doesn't show a broken system to me, just some idiots making bad choices.
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#42 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 01:03 PM

Vicious Maggot, on Apr 22 2005, 01:54 PM, said:

Rhea, on Apr 22 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

he boys just have sex with each other.  :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's what I had suggested. In my post I did not meant to focus on the teacher-students aspect, but the idea that the boys would seek "experimental" relationships with each other since there is a lack of outlet for their developing emotions/feelings. I do not know how it would happen today, but I believe that was almost a norm in the days of high brow prep schools. Maybe we should segregate everyone because something may happen. Like I said it was five teachers out of how many? It doesn't show a broken system to me, just some idiots making bad choices.

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5 caught.  Remember, I grew up in this school system.  There are more.

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#43 Rhea

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:09 PM

^I still don't think that segregating male and female students is an answer to lack of adult responsibility. This assumes that a female teacher would never seduce a female student and the same for males. It's still a question of adults controlling themselves around minors, no matter the sex.

I went through the public school system (actually, I'm somewhat of an expert, because my dad was career Navy and I went through fifteen schools during twelve years of secondary education!). There was never a scandal, and everyone conducted themselves appropriately.

I still think that mixing in the question of the appropriateness of same-sex education with the question of teachers having sex with children is a case of apples and oranges - two important questions, but one not necessarily a solution to the other.

Edited by Rhea, 22 April 2005 - 04:16 PM.

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#44 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:13 PM

oy yoi yoi!  It does not assume any such thing.  I just made the point that statistically the problems are substantially reduced JUST because the number of homosexually inclined people is statistically less in the first place, making the number of homosexually inclined pedophiles even less than that.

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#45 Rhea

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:19 PM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 22 2005, 01:13 PM, said:

oy yoi yoi!  It does not assume any such thing.  I just made the point that statistically the problems are substantially reduced JUST because the number of homosexually inclined people is statistically less in the first place, making the number of homosexually inclined pedophiles even less than that.

There are no risk-free solutions.  But there ARE risk-reduction solutions.

HM07

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I still don't understand HOW the number of homosexually inclined people is less. Do you put up a gay detector when you hire these people to teach children of their sex? I'm not harassing you, I just don't understand at all how in the world having children in same-sex classes would reduce either the chance of a teacher becoming sexually involved with a student OR the number of homosexuals teaching in same-sex schools.  :suspect:
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#46 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:26 PM

I'm just talking about statistics.  Assuming the oft-quoted number is correct, homosexuals make up about 10% of the population.  All things beign equal, the number of homosexual teachers shouldn't be substantially more than that.

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#47 Rhea

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 05:41 PM

Ah. Got it now.

That assumes an awful lot, though. How do we know that homosexual men might not enjoy teaching in an all-boy's school so greatly that there wouldn't be a larger statistical sample of homosexual teachers in all-boy's schools? (Not in Texas, of course :p~)
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#48 Vapor Trails

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 05:59 PM

Interesting responses. Thanks, everyone.

:cool:
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#49 sierraleone

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 06:39 PM

If you segregate children like that it would leave up the responsibility for socializing children w/ kids of the opposite gender....

It makes me think of two opposing trends in society.... one trend, some thinking that we're increasing becoming a nanny state, and leaving too much up to schools/governemtn to raise our children (or telling us how to raise our children), and the other trend, people increasing incredelous at the number of bad parents and/or the depth of their bad parentness.

Heck, some parents would *purposely* keep their kids away from the opposite sex.
Segregation on one hand takes the decision out of the parents hand (for schooling anyways) making their children spend at least 6 hrs in single gendered enviroment, on the other hand it could be seen as giving the parents more freedom. They can always choose how much intergendered activities happen outside of school, but for parents who don't want their kids/teenagers interacting w/ the other gender that much, can enforce it all the time.

The thing I'm worried about is still needing the kids to do intergendered activities to learn how to deal w/ the opposite gender (whether their parents like it or not, sorry, but I consider it an absolute neccessity, unless you're living in a society where you're going to be married off at 16, and be hidden at home all the time :p and even then.... ).

W/ all the Homework that kids have to do after school now-a-days, HM, when are they going to have time? And you're assuming that the parents will have resources to give their children intergendered activities for their child. This assumes they either: have siblings, live in a neigbourhood w/ other children (that the kid likes ;) of both genders), or have transportation to get to one and/or money to pay for activities to meet other kids.

Edit: And even if they have all of these, meeting a few girls or boys every week cannot do the same for ones education of the opposite sex as meeting a diverse group of girls or boys, instead of just a small number, or the ones approved by mom or dad (and well approving of their mates are great thoughts - you don't have control over their mates in school, you'll start to have only control over the ones in the opposite gender)

And what about rural areas that just don't have enough students to do this?

Also: I was very much a loner in school.... I think in an all girl school it would have been worse.... how so? I pretty much rarely rarely got bothered or teased or harrassed, because there were too many cliques, (it was worse in elementary school when there were less kids) so I was able to avoid notice ;) I think there would be less in groups and such in a girls school, because you wouldn't have the girl groups and the boy groups.... and have people to be able to hide inbetween or in the fringes (I didn't hid because I was forced... I didn't fit in, and didn't like 75 % of the people in highschool ;) )

Also, one of my two best friends in highschool was a guy.... I would have never have met him it we didn't go to an intergendered highschool.  :love:

Also: Kids in elementary school are *more likely* to hang out w/ the same gender, and therefor effectively segregate themselves if and when possible.
It seems you suggested doing this during critical ages, so likely you are suggestion segregation in highschool more than elementary school, because this is when its most likely to occur, hormones, increasingly looking like adults.... Perhaps, because of these ;) kids start to interact more w/ the opposite sex... because of this, during the age they naturally start reaching out the other sex (platonically and romantically), if you do this during highschool, intergendered primary schools aren't really going to help.... especially considering how much more kids grow in their teens years.

Shouldn't we also consider, the fact that we are effectively making the other gender "forbidden" we might be making the other gender (their age or not) more enticing, and perhaps incidentally cause more teenage pregnancy/STDs.

Sorry for my babbling, meandering course of conversation. I just think there are too many positivies to get rid of the other gender in school. Teacher and students. Its not just teacher-student romatic relationships you'll be preventing, it will affect many other things, and I just don't think enough of those things will be positive.

Edit: Also consider, if you do the segregation in different schools (because if you just do it differnet classrooms in the same school, opposite sex teacher-student meetings/interactions can still happen), the arrangements parents are going to have to make to send their kids to school if they have kids of both genders are complicated. What if the schools start at the same time?

Edited by sierraleone, 22 April 2005 - 06:47 PM.

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#50 QueenTiye

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 06:42 PM

Rhea, on Apr 22 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

Ah. Got it now.

That assumes an awful lot, though. How do we know that homosexual men might not enjoy teaching in an all-boy's school so greatly that there wouldn't be a larger statistical sample of homosexual teachers in all-boy's schools? (Not in Texas, of course :p~)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'd have to ask why that preference...

One thing that could lead to such a preference is avoidance of pressure from being around adult females.  The other would be a tendency toward pedophilia.  We've already presupposed that pedophilia doesn't occur more often in homosexuals than heterosexuals...

But the other pressure, avoidance of female attention, enjoying male company (and the reverse for lesbian women) only becomes a significant factor IF the jobs are not competitive.  If the jobs are competitive, heterosexual people will want the jobs just as much as anyone else.  And of course (in my pipe dream world) the gender integrated schools would simply cease to exist, so people who want to be teachers wouldn't have a choice... but leaving that alone, competitive pricing would equal out the ratios, but non-competitive pricing leaves other reasons as emerging as primary for why people want to be teachers in single-sex environments.  So... the problem with integrating such a solution persists in being our undervaluing of teachers in the first place.  AND, proper valuation of the job would all by itself lessen some of the likelihood of this kind of garbage happening in schools.

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#51 Spectacles

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 06:43 PM

Interesting discussion. I think there are some good arguments for same-sex schools, but since we're not likely to implement the notion in all public schools, I think a more immediate solution to this is in what Rhea said here:

Quote

The issue is adults controlling themselves. Period. And there is no excuse for becoming involved with a student (no matter the sexual orientation of either party involved).

I've taught for about twenty-eight years now (yikes!), mostly college but I did a two-year stint in a high school, plus student teaching and subbing. And I went to a public high school.

One problem I've long complained about is the tendency of some high school teachers to be immature. Some (not all, certainly) seem to be emotionally stuck in high school themselves, seeking validation from their students, retaliating in petty and juvenile ways against those they perceive as threats, etc. This was never addressed in any teacher ed courses I had to suffer through for certification, and I wonder if it is at all.

It seems that this kind of over-identification with adolescents may be at the root of the problem. Certainly, that is harder for young teachers, which is why I think all schools ought to assign the young'uns to mentors who can help them deal with relationships with students--negative and positive--like adult professionals.
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#52 Smiley

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:41 PM

^^ agreed

sierraleone, on Apr 22 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

Shouldn't we also consider, the fact that we are effectively making the other gender "forbidden" we might be making the other gender (their age or not) more enticing, and perhaps incidentally cause more teenage pregnancy/STDs.


My buddy said the same thing. Their were two Catholic schools by his school. One girls, one boys. The big thing seemed to be meeting at the park halfway between and desegregating.  ;)



edited for misquote

Edited by Vicious Maggot, 22 April 2005 - 10:45 PM.

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#53 TechHarper

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 02:29 AM

HM, I can see where you're coming from on the idea of separating the sexes, but I don't think you've accounted for all of the issues involved.

For one, you fail to note that high school students spend an inordinate amount of time involved in school and school-related activities.  Assuming a 6 to 7 hour school day and another 4 to 6 hours of homework (not an exaggeration), we're looking at more than a third of the entire day spent with other members of the same sex or alone working on homework.  Another third of the day will be spent sleeping.  The remaining third of free time and the weekends are the only time that teens would then be able to interact with members of the opposite sex.  Of that time, we can assume that only a portion of it would be spent with members of the opposite sex (if any).  From a purely mathematical point of view, that's not a lot of time for integrating the sexes...

Also, you don't address something that I feel is rather important.  Some people are incredibly shy and/or uncertain of themselves.  This is especially true during the teenage years.  Co-ed schools offer a natural place for people, even those who are shy, to interact with members of the opposite sex.  These individuals may not go out of their way to meet people outside of the school setting and thus normal socialization would not take place at a natural pace.  In your attempt to avoid some of the unfortunate consequences of ragining hormones, don't forget that natural interaction needs to take place lest there be long-term socialization problems.

I would further point out that you're idea risks creating male and female cultures.  What I mean by this is that, by separating the boys and girls, you leave no room for the sexes to learn from one another.  In most cultures men are expected to be more aggressive, separated from their emotions, and interested in only very specific things (for example:  sports, cars, etcetera) and women are expected to be more mild, ruled by their emotions, and interested in other specifically "feminine" things.  By mixing the sexes it is possible for members of each sex to avoid such stereotyping by learning from the norms and individuals of the other sex.  Speaking solely from personal experience, I was always considered too soft, too much of a "brain," and not interested enough in sports/cars/etcetera by those guys who fit the "masculine" stereotype to a T.  I, however, had long ago learned that pretending that I cared about such things just to fit in with the sterotype was meaningless; I attribute this in large part to my female friends (who I met in school, I might add) who had, in many ways, acted as a counter-balance to such teasing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your idea assumes that avoiding rare instances of adults committing crimes against teenagers is preferable to the natural, normal, healthy, and important side-effects of co-ed schools.  Your idea would not totally do away with the problem, but it would create a number of additional problems which would have far-reaching consequences.

Edited for wording.

Edited by TechHarper, 23 April 2005 - 03:48 AM.

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#54 CurlyKirsty

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 04:28 AM

In the all these cases the teacher should be prosecuted and the children involved should also be counselled and if need be given a warning about their behaviour and punishment if required.  I would be more lenient with the 25 year old teacher involved in the relationship with the 18 year old as in this country you are legally adult at 18, but maybe in that area the law says 21.  

The teachers are held to be accountable for their actions and to a certain extent so should the children involved, unless it can be proved that the situation was abusive.  It does not say whether or not all these teachers came from the same school or just the same area, but if there is chronic abuse of children in schools it is up to you as a parent/pupil/fellow teacher to bring concerns to the attention of the schoolboard.  

Over here in the UK the church schools are highly regarded and are more regulated in most cases by both the state and the church authorities, which results in higher standards in behaviour and dress.  My children attend a secondary school in which the teachers sometimes stand outside the gate and catch the children rolling up skirts and removing their ties which means that the girls are not considered "jailbait" and the boys are really smartly turned out.  :D  

Parents are also expected to and (in most cases) required to invest a lot more time and money towards the church schools that did not happen when we attended the normal schools, so we are more inclined to protect our "interest" as it were.   The expense of school uniform pales into comparison of all the raffle tickets and school functions as well as the annual charge set by the diocese. (sic)  I consider it well spent as it is cheaper than the "private" school fee`s and the result is my daughter going to university, and my special needs son being treated like a normal child and not bullied by his classmates.  (My daughter was bullied at a (non catholic) primary school by an muslim child! For having red hair of all things and there was not one thing the school would do about it as they did not want to be seen as racist  :angry: )  

Regarding the attitude to nuns expressed, I am most dissapointed that you would make such general assumptions, when I was at school most of the nuns were really sweet and kind, and are remembered with fondness.   They are however extremely rare now as fewer women join convents, so the school I went to is now predominately staffed by lay or regular teachers and not nuns.  Bear in mind that when you hear about an abusive nun/priest that there were 10 or so good, kind and pious people who you never hear about who do not deserve the slurs.
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#55 CurlyKirsty

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 04:48 AM

Digital man
I am wondering if the issue is not that girls in Catholic schools wear skirts that they roll up into mini-skirts or that the girls in the other schools can`t do this and wear jeans and sweatshirts in order to try and avoid the unwelcome attention from fellow (male) pupils that teachers in these schools cannot control.  You have one view and I have another.  Some young men see girls as objects to be used or groped, young women will guard against this by covering up, but in catholic school this is less likely to happen as children will be taught in a  moral and spiritual environment and the girls probably are a lot more niave about how they are percieved by you and others like you.  I however would like to stress that dressing in a "provocative" way does not mean the girl is a slut, or that she wants to be one.  It may be the way that you look at the girl that needs to be changed.  :suspect:
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#56 Anakam

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 09:23 AM

Spectacles, on Apr 23 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

One problem I've long complained about is the tendency of some high school teachers to be immature. Some (not all, certainly) seem to be emotionally stuck in high school themselves, seeking validation from their students, retaliating in petty and juvenile ways against those they perceive as threats, etc. This was never addressed in any teacher ed courses I had to suffer through for certification, and I wonder if it is at all.

I must have been pretty lucky with my younger teachers, then.  In terms of addressing it, I would say that's really only done in terms of a longer internship at some schools, which allow the prospective teacher more time to see what the older teacher does and also actually teach some.  However, I didn't go through the whole secondary ed program; what I did go through seemed to have more of an emphasis on understanding the stuff that adolescents are likely to be experiencing (peer pressure of varying kinds, hormones, etc), and preparing us for the pressure of lesson planning by giving us a preinternship course with some writing combined with a writing class (and that's the very sketchy outline of those two courses).

Quote

It seems that this kind of over-identification with adolescents may be at the root of the problem. Certainly, that is harder for young teachers, which is why I think all schools ought to assign the young'uns to mentors who can help them deal with relationships with students--negative and positive--like adult professionals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I absolutely agree, but unless an older teacher assigns themselves to someone unofficially during a mutual planning hour or lunch or something, I really don't see it happening very widely.

(As an aside, I was flipping through a book on career expectations including average starting salary with a bachelor's in various fields and how many people with a bachelor's stayed in the field they got the bachelor's in; for secondary education I believe about 38% became public school teachers at the secondary level and 39% went into private for profit.  Methinks that is not helping.... :eek4: )
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#57 Vapor Trails

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:15 AM

CurlyKirsty, on Apr 23 2005, 04:48 AM, said:

Digital man
I am wondering if the issue is not that girls in Catholic schools wear skirts that they roll up into mini-skirts or that the girls in the other schools can`t do this and wear jeans and sweatshirts in order to try and avoid the unwelcome attention from fellow (male) pupils that teachers in these schools cannot control.  You have one view and I have another.  Some young men see girls as objects to be used or groped, young women will guard against this by covering up, but in catholic school this is less likely to happen as children will be taught in a  moral and spiritual environment and the girls probably are a lot more niave about how they are percieved by you and others like you.  I however would like to stress that dressing in a "provocative" way does not mean the girl is a slut, or that she wants to be one.  It may be the way that you look at the girl that needs to be changed.  :suspect:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Erm, mind telling me where I implied that a girl at a Catholic school dressing in such a manner is a "slut"?  :suspect:

Again-I went to a parochial school for grades 1 through 8, so I know ALL about that environment. Yes-I know that many of these girls are rather naive about the perceptions of men-which is EXACTLY why my anger is aimed at those in charge and those who design such outfits.  :suspect:

In other words, I understand HM's concerns and agree with them. However, where we part company is how to deal with the problem.

:eh:

Edited by Digital Man, 23 April 2005 - 10:18 AM.

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#58 Vapor Trails

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:25 AM

nutmeg, on Apr 22 2005, 12:15 AM, said:

I have been a teacher for 20+ years. It's very simple. Adults don't have sex with children, period. No excuses. Teachers don't have sex with students, period.  No excuses.

nutmeg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



What she said.
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#59 Vapor Trails

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:28 AM

Handmaiden07, on Apr 22 2005, 09:08 AM, said:

I'm in favor of segregating children by gender for lots of reasons, but that's another debate. 
HM07

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Actually, HM-why don't you start a thread on this? You've piqued my curiosity.

:)
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#60 sierraleone

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 06:49 PM

^ yeah. I see lots of reasons *against* segregating, not for. Only one (other than the one brought up in this thread on teacher-student romantic relationship) and that is that some studies say that students learn better in single gender enviroment.

That may be true, there *may* be some generalities about how boys and girls learn (but those that do learn differently from their gender would be even more marginalized then now, because w/ more different learners in the classroom there is more of chance they'll try to teach to more than one group).
Also, supposively concentration is better.
But if they can't learn to concentrate w/ the opposite gender around in school, when are they going to in the real world ;) :D

Thats the only arguement I could see. (other than keeping student-student romatic relationships down - but I don't think it would do that, it would make the other gender more enticing, not less - you wouldn't learn what doofuses or silly-heads the opposite sex was until it was too late ;) :D refering to the "differences" between the genders that always have people scratching their heads)
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