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Iraq Updates

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:14 AM

Resumed from here: http://www.exisle.ne...t=ST&f=3&t=2580

Also: There are many stirring images from this war. However, if you post them in this thread, please either:

1) Upload them using the "Image Upload" Feauture
OR
2) Link to them.

Linking to external sites can slow down the thread, and nobody wants that. Also, please no embedded images over 20K or so.

Have at you!
Rov

Edited by Certifiably Cait, 27 August 2012 - 01:55 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:15 AM

The debate we had in the last thread:

How do you feel about US troops planting the US flag in Iraqi soil?

My thoughts:

Quote

I oppose. Strongly.

If there are American flags to be planted in Iraq, let them be planted by Iraqis, if they so choose. But we should be planting Iraqi flags-- to symbolize that we're giving them their country back-- not our own.

It's only fair. And I say that as someone who has consistently supported US actions.

I wouldn't go so far as to punish marines who *do* plant a flag... but it should be frowned upon and the US forces should have standing orders not to plant old glory.

My Two Cents.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#3 MuseZack

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:17 AM

An oddly fascinating look at the inside of Tariq Aziz's mansion and his taste in American pop culture.

http://www.washingto...-2003Apr10.html

The Najaf murders are deeply disturbing.  Reading between the lines, it looks like Iran's getting ready to make its move.  

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#4 Rov Judicata

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:32 AM

First.. that article is profoundly odd Zack. Weird.....

And yeah... let's see what Iran does. Given what just happened, how much do they dare do?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#5 Norville

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:35 AM

Oh, IV got locked before I could post again...

Okay, so I first said this (in IV)...

Quote

I think, from what I've heard, it's more to do with any civil order breaking down, because looting had been reported in other places, unless I'm mistaken.

Then I heard something that made me think that perhaps Drew was right, that it was only looting of government buildings, as an expression of disgust toward the regime. So I recanted what I said. I'm just going to go back to what my first instincts were -- that civil order has indeed broken down and people are being uncivilized, as usually happens. After all, they were looting at least one hospital, too -- I heard a report about the hospital workers going out and tracking their supplies down to get them back...

Now I'm hearing reports that it's a real mess, because all order has indeed broken down. Pretty much to be expected, and too bad if we were hoping it would be different.

Quote

There has been some more looting than that. Every group has it's criminal element, after all. Look what happens way too often when LA or NY lose power!

Yeah. Go and check to see what I said about this at first, before I decided to agree with Drew. I'll quote that again, though it's at the top of my post...

Quote

I think, from what I've heard, it's more to do with any civil order breaking down, because looting had been reported in other places, unless I'm mistaken.

Quote

I guess I don't understand your use of the word 'jingoistic' here.

Pardon me, my sense of humor is sarcastic. While I love the flag, there's more to being patriotic than waving it all over in place of actually thinking. (There's also such a thing as flag etiquette, which I apparently understand better than a lot of "good patriots" who keep their flag out in every sort of weather, let it drag on the ground, never take it down, and let it take a lot of unnecessary damage. I was tempted to give a neighbor a little book on how to care for one's flag, since this person leaves the flag out in wind and storms, and at night without lighting it. I was very sad when a business did that to their flag, left it out in all weather, and it was shredded by a storm...)

Quote

There have been pictures of both.

I did say that I hadn't *seen* shots of the Iraqi flag on the statue, because I hadn't bothered to go watch news the other night, and I didn't see any shots of it in newspapers later. (I need to specify: the newspapers I tend to see here.)

Let's see. I guess it's difficult to understand what I meant when I said "There are no photos (that we've seen)" and "I'll explain that neither of us had been watching TV news. She can't get to the TV with a broken ankle, and I was too tired to watch anything last night." "That we've *seen*" doesn't mean they don't exist; it means that *we*... didn't... see... them. Do I need to make that simpler somehow?

Say, there isn't an "ignore" function on this BBS, is there? ;)

Quote

Obviously, you wouldn't want either flag on there when the statue came down and hit the ground.

Gee, ya think?

Quote

*shrug* I personally don't think it's appropriate to put up an American flag on Iraqi soil. It makes it look less like a liberating and more like a conquering.

Yep, that was the reason I wasn't going to mention, knowing how some would react. If we're giving Iraq back to the Iraqis, let them choose what flag to use; don't assume they want ours.

[edited 'cause my quoting went screwy]
[edited twice 'cause my improvements didn't improve it]

Edited by Norville, 11 April 2003 - 08:39 AM.

"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#6 MuseZack

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:43 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 11 2003, 05:21 AM, said:

First.. that article is profoundly odd Zack. Weird.....

And yeah... let's see what Iran does. Given what just happened, how much do they dare do?
On the one hand, Iran might be restrained by seeing American troops knocking off regimes (albeit ones they hated) on two of their borders.

On the other hand, they might figure from Rumsfeld and Bolton's comments that we're coming for them anyway, and so why not get the drop on us by stirring up trouble in the countries we already occupy?

With the Zagros mountains as a natural barrier, a much more advanced nuclear program, three times the population of Iraq and a government that hasn't been diplomatically isolated and weakened by 12 years of sanctions, they'd also be a lot tougher nut to crack.

They've also probably kept some of the TOW missiles Ollie North sold them, not to mention enough Silkworms and Exocets to make sailing a fleet up the Persian Gulf a dicey proposition.  And their friends Hezbollah have killed more Americans than both Gulf Wars put together.

So Iran's next move is anyone's guess.

Zack
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#7 tennyson

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 09:10 AM

They don't need the TOWs they have plenty of shiny new Chinese copies of MILAN to keep them going for quite some time. As it is the generation of TOWs that were sold to Iran before and after the revolution have been well surpassed by current developments in armor, although they could definitely hurt softer skinned vehicles.
The Silkworms, unless they've gotten a lot better in the last five years or so are only a threat in mass, much like the missiles they were patterned on. But a significantly tougher nut to crack, with significantly better weapons. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Edited by tennyson, 11 April 2003 - 09:16 AM.

"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#8 QueenTiye

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 06:20 PM

Just a quick question - has there been any word on the rest of the POWs now that the war is mostly over?

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#9 Cardie

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 06:32 PM

^^They went to where they thought they might be held and found shredded, bloody uniforms. Two had the names of two of the POWs. They are of course looking all over for them and hope that some Iraqis may know and provide intel. (I think the CIA is in there helping out.) It doesn't look good---Gen. Myers said he was very concerned--but they found Lynch's uniform that way, too, and she was found alive.

regarding the looting, Christiane Amanpour described cases of "looting fatigue." People had so much loaded on carts or trolleys that they were sitting on the curb side worn out. The sanctions have robbed Iraqis of basic necessities while Saddam and his people kept the profits that were supposed to go for humanitarian aid. I figure the people have decided that all of the country has just turned into their free shopping mall.

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#10 the 'Hawk

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 06:51 PM

Some enduring images of the war from the BBC.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#11 the 'Hawk

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 07:18 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 11 2003, 01:04 AM, said:

How do you feel about US troops planting the US flag in Iraqi soil?
It depends on where they put it.

International protocol about flags is very, very picky.

If the American flag is to be raised in Iraq, it should ALWAYS have an Iraqi flag flying at its level right next to it, if not higher. And it should always be accompanied by a British one. You know, for posterity.

They can fly little ones or 3x5 ones off the backs of their tanks as a symbol of presence.

But if they plant one in the grounds of Baghdad or anywhere else, it is a symbol of conquest and supremacy.

And that's just what al-Qaeda would love to see.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#12 Rov Judicata

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:31 PM

This is too weird.

When asked, Iraqi UN Ambassador says:

"I love New York!".

If you can't make a joke here about the steroetypical friendliness of New Yorkers, you're just not trying. ;).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#13 QueenTiye

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:33 PM

HEY!  Watch it with bashing New Yorkers!  I protest!  I find this offensive! ;)

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#14 the 'Hawk

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:39 PM

Rov, that constitutes a material breach, you're in possession of weapons of mass derision.... and now, the folks who live in New York might have to demand some EI regime change!!!

:o

Fun!

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#15 Rov Judicata

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 11:43 PM

LOL QT and Hawk!!!! :lol:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#16 Norville

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:31 AM

So, now a large archaeology museum and a Pepsi factory, both in Baghdad, have been looted. Yeah, this is wonderful chaos... (Having been a student of archaeology, I regret the damage to the museum considerably more. ;) )
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#17 MuseZack

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:39 AM

Norville, on Apr 11 2003, 09:20 PM, said:

So, now a large archaeology museum and a Pepsi factory, both in Baghdad, have been looted. Yeah, this is wonderful chaos... (Having been a student of archaeology, I regret the damage to the museum considerably more. ;) )
As well you should.  They don't call Iraq the cradle of civilization for nothing, and now it appears the priceless heritage of the entire human race is being ransacked.  And don't even get me started on the hospitals being looted...

I see Rumsfeld's comment is that "freedom's untidy."  Yeah, when I think of looting, arson, mayhem, and clerics getting hacked to death by mobs, "untidy" isn't exactly the word that comes to mind.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#18 Bad Wolf

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:46 AM

MuseZack, on Apr 11 2003, 10:28 PM, said:

I see Rumsfeld's comment is that "freedom's untidy."  Yeah, when I think of looting, arson, mayhem, and clerics getting hacked to death by mobs, "untidy" isn't exactly the word that comes to mind.
What do you expect from an administration that refers to civillian losses as collateral damage?

Isn't that the excuse the Oklahoma bomber used?  Collateral damage?
Posted Image

#19 jon3831

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:09 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 11 2003, 01:35 PM, said:

What do you expect from an administration that refers to civillian losses as collateral damage?

Isn't that the excuse the Oklahoma bomber used?  Collateral damage?
"Collateral damage" is a military term, Lil. It refers to non-military casualties, which, as we all know are an unfortunate consequence of *any* war.

And stepping outside of box here, Lil, I'm extremely disappointed by your repeated characterization of the Bush Administration as a group of murderers. Do you honestly believe that we have gone out of our way to kill civilians? If so, I ask you where the carpet bombings are. Why didn't we level Baghdad? Why didn't we level Basra? Why didn't we level Nasiriyah? We could've done that easily. We didn't. We have gone out of our way to minimize civilian casualties, to a degree unheardof in history.

But guess what? Just like another general in a decidedly greater slaughter said, "War is hell." Civilian casualties happen. That's the nature of the beast. But the point of the matter is, they've already happened. So, the issue here now isn't so much whether this war was justified, it's now a question of making that "collateral damage" worth it.

Ask yourself, Lil. How many would've died under Saddam's regime if we had let him go for another 10 years?
"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#20 eryn

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:15 AM

Norville, on Apr 11 2003, 03:20 PM, said:

So, now a large archaeology museum and a Pepsi factory, both in Baghdad, have been looted. Yeah, this is wonderful chaos... (Having been a student of archaeology, I regret the damage to the museum considerably more. ;) )
That reminds me of the situation when the Taliban completely destroyed those Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. *sigh* It just extremely dissappointing to me I guess. As Zack said, Iraq was the cradle of civilization and as such all of those artifacts and history is most likely going to be lost... at least a large chunk of it anyway.  

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