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Iraq Updates

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#61 Kosh

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:21 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 12 2003, 11:01 AM, said:

Oh, and Jessica Lynch returned to the USA for the first time since her rescue today.

:cool:
She's only nine hours drive fromm home now. I hate to see what will ahppen when she gets back. We may get a new state holiday. And I would be very much in favor of a WV Veterans day. We have sent more people to war, per capita, then any other state.



Got the following from Iraq, yesterday.



Quote

Statement from French's Mustard

The makers of French's Mustard made the following
recent statement: "We at the French's Company wish
to put an end to statements that our product is
manufactured in France. There is no relationship, nor
has there ever been a relationship, between our
mustard and the country of France. Indeed, our
mustard in manufactured in Rochester, NY. The
only thing we have in common is that we are both
yellow."




:p  < Send them Jerry Lewis, it'll be like payback, and they'll think we still like them.
Can't Touch This!!

#62 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 08:22 PM

Quote

Lil: The problem I have with the cease fire argument (and again this is my opinion) is that I never acknowledged the validity of the conflict that led to the cease fire so even if it *was* violated it is still all a house of cards in my view.

The Gulf War II* was a conflict that was sanctioned by international authority with the intent to drive a dictator out of territory that he had invaded.  This was only carried out after pleas from the Saudi and Kuwaiti government reached the UN and the United States.  Then Iraq was given a long period consisting of months before the Coalition ground forces rolled in and physically removed his forces from Iraq. I’m guessing but your unjustness comes from the reason that you think the war was fought over oil.  So if I’m wrong sorry.

I would say the consideration of the strategic implications of Saddam controlling that much oil and what he could do with that much power was the main factor.  Saudi Arabia was clearly on his “next” list and that would have left him in a unique position for further expansion.  Saudi Arabia was in no position to stop the Iraqi Army without a large foreign expeditionary force and the other Gulf States wouldn’t have even been speed bumps.  For all the things you can say about Hitler he never had the advantage of sitting on the primary fuel source for the armies of the world.  With that oil and the military hardware Saddam could build you’re dealing with a large, hostile, aggressive, and military minded state sitting in the perfect location for further expansion and starving the rest of the world out of responding.

So my question is if not the US and UN stopping it then who?  Israel might have been able to stop him from at least taking here territory and wiping them out.  Though no other regional power would have that capability.  Saddam would have been in a situation of vast wealth while choking anyone off who dared to challenge him.  Now sure the Kuwaiti and Saudi government aren’t the nicest people but then neither was old Uncle Joe Stalin.  FDR and Churchill realized that sometimes you need to work with some not so nice governments to eliminate the greater threat.  

If anyone doesn’t think we should work with non democratic regimes then I’ll be happy to suggest once again that the UN should be punted into the Atlantic by the NYNG.  The UN has more than their fair share of despots as member states.

Quote

Lil: so now it is the "right" or the "duty" of the United States to engage in War against any regime that does not pass its smell test on human rights?

It is the duty to of the United States to see that our sovereignty is protected and intact by actually holding aggressive countries accountable to the means to restrain them.  That means the Gulf War II cease-fire agreement.  


Quote

Lil: The question I've had from day one of this whole thing is "why now". If, as you point out, these violations have been ongoing then why now?

1) We have a Administration that is actually willing to act rather than just use the military piecemeal for misguided halfhearted attempts at nation building and ill fated stupid Tomahawk missile diplomacy.  
2) A majority of the American People at last has the will and the understanding that action needs to be taken.
3) The forces are in place and ready to go unlike back closer to 9-11.  If anyone doesn’t buy this one check how long it takes to move a heavy division plus all the forces we have in theater to the Persian Gulf.  Secondly then check the rotation in the carrier force and you’ll see it was at a peak number here.  The majority of our strike power came off the carriers.


Quote

Lil: p.s. CJ Aegis, I apologize for letting my frustration and upset over other peoples' personalization of this thing to spill over onto you. You have conducted yourself in an exemplary manner and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

No problemo.  

Quote

Uncle Sid: While we certainly cannot stop every dictator or terrorist organization, we can show that the worst offenders will not be able to perpetrate extreme acts.

That action on the limited number that we can deal with sets a precedent that warns others to watch you do or you may be next.

* The Iran Iraq War was the first Gulf War.   Need a better naming system here....
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#63 the 'Hawk

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 08:35 PM

The easiest way to go Gulf War is by year.

Gulf War '80 was Iran-Iraq.
Gulf War '91 was Iraq-Kuwait.
Gulf War '03 is Saddam-the curb.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#64 Norville

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:43 PM

Quote

Lil: They started this war for unjust reasons and nothing that has happened since they did so has changed my view that they did that. And I don't know about your definition of murder but unjust killing certainly comes within my definition.

CJ: I think the point is that many of us don't think this is a unjust war.

Ah, but if we want to get terrorists, the people behind September 11, why don't we go after Saudi Arabia or Egypt (which is where the hijackers tended to be from)? Ah, because it would be politically impossible to attack S.A., of course... and Egypt's a freaking mess (though supposedly an ally). I'm reading a fascinating book about Egypt right now, _A Passion for Islam: Shaping the Modern MIddle East: The Egyptian Experience_ by Caryle Murphy. It's very good background for why Egypt is breeding terrorists despte its attempts to prevent terrorism.

Quote

Consider a situation that has a guy running around waving a gun on the street next to you. He has all ready shot members of his own family with the gun and knifed the next door neighbor. How many people are going to argue with whoever shoots him if they spend say a decade telling him to put down the gun?

Hmm. Read about Egypt, the Islamic Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, violent attacks on tourists, governmental use of torture (and how that radicalizes the fanatic elements even more), etc. ... and ask why we don't go after Egypt, if war on terrorism is what we're doing.

Quote

consider how those "wonderful" protestors behaved in San Francisco.

Most of them didn't even come from San Francisco, and I still think most of them were anarchists, not actually people working for peace. Point taken -- everyone has the freedom to behave like a moron...

Quote

People do regularly abuse their freedoms to the detriment of society. That is part of the risk of having a free society and I think myself it is outweighed by the advantages.

Agreed. However, "freedom is untidy"? Mass looting and carjacking and burning is "freedom"? Sorry, I remember tuning in to CNN just in time to see the start of those South Central Los Angeles riots years ago (post Rodney King verdict), and those people went berserk and destroyed their own neighborhoods. It seems much the same here. It started as an attack on the hated government institutions and became an assault on society, IMHO.

Quote

I wrote: Ah. One of those emotional manipulations along the lines of: if you don't support war, how many more skyscrapers have to fall, and how many more planes will be hijacked, and what will you say when North Korea nukes the West Coast? :glare:

DevF: That is not a fair charge.

Gee. I didn't think it was fair, either, when someone threw a tantrum on a mailing list against anyone who dared be against war, and said exactly those words to us. So if I'm using that unfairly, I think it's unfair to have that used against me in the first place. Considering I'm not even a New Yorker, I was hit very hard by 9/11/01, and to have it used against me -- if you don't support war, then how many skyscrapers need to fall, etc. -- was *exceedingly* unfair.

And if it's inappropriate for me to use that example, well, I never said I was perfect. I'm just a bit fed up, though.

Quote

the cost of inaction

Why is not going to war "inaction"? There are other ways to work on problems. Though, of course, Saddam Hussein wouldn't have been impressed by any of them. So, yeah, I acknowledge that war was the only way he'd be unseated. That doesn't mean I enjoy it.

Quote

The problem I have with the cease fire argument (and again this is my opinion) is that I never acknowledged the validity of the conflict that led to the cease fire

Well, same here... it's pretty funny to talk about "freeing" Kuwait if one knew anything about that society, or Saudi Arabia...

Quote

The question I've had from day one of this whole thing is "why now". If, as you point out, these violations have been ongoing then why now?

Yeah. Why wait 12 years, because the job wasn't finished in the first place?

Quote

Some people believe the fact that some good may come of it is enough to overcome the motive behind it.

Well, "the end justifies the means" and all that? Here's something that means more to me the more I think of it, something William Penn said: "A good end cannot sanctify evil means; nor must we ever do evil that good may come of it." Perhaps I need to add this to my .sig...

Quote

so now it is the "right" or the "duty" of the United States to engage in War against any regime that does not pass its smell test on human rights?

Saudi Arabia and Egypt really need to have their cesspits cleaned out sometime...

Quote

And while you're at it, make sure you ask the people who were cheering American soldiers and dancing in the streets if it's worth it to them. Or ask some kids who've been freed from prison.
It works both ways, doesn't it?

Fine. Some were cheering and dancing in the streets. I won't deny that.

Quote

The regime was raping and murdering people. Holding families hostage to make people obey their will. Torturing prisoners with electricity as a matter of procedure, and locking innocent children in jails. This is not a matter of some culturally relative difference of opinion. This is horrifically evil.

I'm not denying that, but why don't you read about what goes on in Egypt, for example? Egyptian government cracks down violently upon those it believes are Islamic revolutionaries. Unfortunately, their methods (including terrible torture) help to radicalize the very attitudes they're trying to prevent. Kind of like using war to fight terrorism can radicalize the attitudes we're trying to prevent...

Oh well, just my views. Of course they won't convince anyone, but I have a right to 'em.
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#65 GiGi

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 03:52 AM

Norville, on Apr 12 2003, 10:32 AM, said:

Well, "the end justifies the means" and all that? Here's something that means more to me the more I think of it, something William Penn said: "A good end cannot sanctify evil means; nor must we ever do evil that good may come of it." Perhaps I need to add this to my .sig...
Excellent points Norville, echos what I have been saying for a while.  We need to look at the Middle Eastern region and it's problems from a completely different viewpoint than our Western perspective.  We may never even understand it, but at the very least must acknowledge there are vast differences.  As different as Klingon and Federation literally.  If not more.  So things that make absolute sense to us will be turned on its head when applied to the Middle Eastern mind set.  Remember this is a society in which thieves used to (if not still) had their right hands cut off.  AND why that is important is that they all eat with their RIGHT hands from a communal pot.  The left hand is used for cleansing after using the bathroom (hint they don't use toliet paper) Thus a theif would never again be able to eat from the communal bowl.  Don't even ask about the punishment for adultry!   Watch Lawrence of Arabia for some clues to the brutality of the region.  So, yes Saddam was brutal especially through our eyes, but this is an area that is brutal.  That will probably not change.  They next ruler could easily be just as bad, if not worse, in spite of our best efforts.  This something that must be kept in mind in the big picture.

You quote from W. Penn sums it up for me.  And it actually reminds me of some of the concepts Roddenberry was expressing in TOS.  :)
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#66 Norville

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 03:57 AM

Quote

I wrote:
However, "freedom is untidy"? Mass looting and carjacking and burning is "freedom"? Sorry, I remember tuning in to CNN just in time to see the start of those South Central Los Angeles riots years ago (post Rodney King verdict), and those people went berserk and destroyed their own neighborhoods. It seems much the same here.

Considering they destroyed their national museum (enough to make a curator cry, according to a report I just heard), I ask that again. That's "untidy" freedom?

Of course, considering how most in the US couldn't care less about history, and therefore probably can't comprehend my emotion when I talk about this, I'm sure it's no big deal. History's dead; history means nothing...

Quote

Zack:
They don't call Iraq the cradle of civilization for nothing, and now it appears the priceless heritage of the entire human race is being ransacked.

Indeed. Apparently, the US was striving not to hit anything of great archaeological significance in the bombing -- the Iraqis chose to destroy it instead.

Quote

Mystic:
That reminds me of the situation when the Taliban completely destroyed those Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

Yes. And does anyone remember how many people the Khmer Rouge killed in Cambodia, and how hard they worked to destroy Cambodia's past?

Now, for a diversion from that, here's an interesting part from _Passion for Islam_, which I'm reading. In discussing the use of torture by the state, it points out how Nasser used torture extensively; Sadat tended not to (though he was widely despised anyway); Mubarak went right back into those tactics, and they continue to this day...

"The resort to torture, some Egyptians say, has been facilitated by two decades of rule under emergency laws. In exceptional times of national crisis, the Egyptian constitution allows the president to temporarily invoke a state of emergency. Sadat's 1981 assassination was such a crisis, and his successor, President Mubarak, dutifully declared an emergency. Contrary to what everyone expected, however, the emergency laws have been in place ever since. Temporary became permanent."

Now, of course, that couldn't happen here, could it? Despite the fact that some in the government want the whole emergency Homeland Security/Patriot Act/etc. to be permanent... Nah, couldn't happen. :sarcasm:
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#67 the 'Hawk

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 05:34 AM

They got the seven of diamonds.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/2942521.stm

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#68 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:07 AM

Updates:

- Elements of 1sr MEF are now advancing on Tikrit.  US marines have also taken the town of Kut in eastern Iraq.
- 4th ID seems to have a large percentage of their equipment unloaded.  CENTCOM is reporting that leading recon elements of 4 ID has advanced into Iraq from Kuwait.  
- CENTCOM: US. Marine was killed when two gunmen posing as landscape workers attacked a checkpoint at a medical facility.  The Marines returned fire and in the process killed one attacker whom had a Syrian ID card.  The other attacker escaped.
- US forces are attempting to restore order by getting the Iraqi Police Forces reestablished in Baghdad.  The US says its troops have already secured a hospital in the capital, Baghdad, and a water treatment plant threatened by looters.   The US State Department has announced it is sending 1,200 law enforcement officials to help Iraq set up a new police force. US marines and Iraqi police are setting up joint patrols set to begin in a few days to try and restore law and order in Baghdad.
-Kirkuk: An Iraqi air force colonel told U.S. military officials he knew of over a hundred missiles within about an 20 mile radius of the city.  At least 24 of the missiles are armed with chemical warheads.  Tests carried out on a captured warhead found near Kirkuk were inconclusive. One set showed trace amounts of a nerve agent.  This would be consistent with some leakage occurring from a chemical warhead.
- In a Baghdad school US Marines found about 50 "suicide vests".  These vests were loaded with explosives and ball bearings.
- An Iraqi who surrendered to U.S. Marines told them he had performed plastic surgery on Saddam and his relatives.  He stated that he knows where the family has fled but says he doesn’t know the whereabouts of the former Iraqi leader
- American forces in the northern city of Kirkuk began stepping up their patrols in the area.  Kurdish forces have started to withdraw from the city.


My knowledge of British papers is less than perfect so exactly how good is the Telegraph?  The source might be dubious but the content doesn’t surprise me in the least.  If this is true then I’ll be interested to see exactly what else is turned up as stuff really gets dug into.  
Revealed: Russia spied on Blair for Saddam

Quote

Top secret documents obtained by The Telegraph in Baghdad show that Russia provided Saddam Hussein's regime with wide-ranging assistance in the months leading up to the war, including intelligence on private conversations between Tony Blair and other Western leaders.

Moscow also provided Saddam with lists of assassins available for "hits" in the West and details of arms deals to neighbouring countries. The two countries also signed agreements to share intelligence, help each other to "obtain" visas for agents to go to other countries and to exchange information on the activities of Osama bin Laden, the al-Qa'eda leader.

An interesting poll on Canadian Public Opinion in regards to the war:
Canada and the Iraq War: Two Solitudes Emerge

Interesting note: NewsWeek Poll: Bush has a 71% approval rating right now.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#69 usmarox

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 03:31 PM

The Telegraph is a reputable paper...it's a little right-wing, but it's not sensationalist.  I read it =)
Miscellaneous ramblings and utter negativity - my LJ

You are not free, whose liberty is won by other, more righteous souls.  You are merely protected.  You suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return.  Now, the time has come for you to pay for that freedom, and you will pay in the currency of honest toil and human blood."

Inquisitor Czevak, Address to the Council of Ryanti.  

And no less true for being fictional.


Two ears, one mouth.  Use them in that ratio.

#70 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 06:42 PM

- Coalition Forces are now attacking Tikrit.  Cobra helicopters are engaging Iraqi forces outside of the city.  Some reports indicate that Marine light armor may be in the city or just outside of it engaging Iraqi forces.  This is the same force that recovered the 7 POWs.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 13 April 2003 - 06:42 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#71 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 13 April 2003 - 11:05 PM

An update on Tikrit:  It looks like 2,000 to 3,300 Iraqi soldiers have gathered there to make a last stand.  These troops are assumed to be the last organized remnants of the regular Army and Republican Guard.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#72 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 06:35 AM

It looks like we have the five of spades.  

U.S. Says Saddam's Half Brother Captured

Quote

The captured Iraqis include Watban Ibrahim Hasan, one of Saddam's three half brothers, who once served as Iraq's interior minister. Hasan was the five of spades in the deck of playing cards the U.S. military issued with pictures of wanted Iraqi officials.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#73 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 06:38 AM

We've made good progress on the deck... before you know it, we'll be down to 52. ;).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#74 MuseZack

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 07:36 PM

In a period that's seen the looting of hospitals, schools, and National Museum and Library, this was one of the most encouraging story I've seen in a while, for a variety of reasons:

Muslims save Baghdad's Jewish community centre from looters



April 14 2003

Iraqi Muslims came to the aid of Baghdad's tiny Jewish community yesterday, chasing out looters trying to sack its cultural centre in the heart of the capital.

"At 3am, I saw two men, one with a beard, on the roof of the Jewish community house and I cried out to my friend, 'Hossam, bring the Kalashnikovs!'" said Hassam Kassam, 21.

Heither Hassan nor Hossam, who is the guard at the centre, was armed at the time but the threat worked in scaring off the intruders.

Two hours later, the looters returned again and Hassan Kassem used the trick once more.

The centre is located in a freshly-painted white house on a lane off Rashid Street in Baghdad's old town.
    
Two days ago, amid rampant looting in the capital, neighbours removed the sign reading 'Special Committee for the Religious Affairs of Ezra Menahem Daniel' to make the premises less conspicuous.

On Saturday at about 10.30am, two men seized an opportunity created by the guard's mid-morning break to try to force open the door in a first attempt to burgle the centre.

"We came over right way and asked them what they wanted," said Abdallah Nurredin, 50.



They tried to explain that they wanted to talk to the guard, Nurredin said, "but when they saw the look we were giving them, they left without saying another word".



Yesterday, Hossam the guard left to look for a real gun in case the persistent thieves returned.



"The Jews have always lived here, in this house, and it is only normal that we should protect them," said Ibrahim Mohamad, 36, who works in a small undergarments factory near the centre of town.



Although the majority of Jews fled the country in the early 1950s, many of their Muslim tenants come each week to pay their rent to an old woman at the centre, Mohamad said.



In the Batauin district near the Saddun commercial artery, the entrance of a large synagogue is blocked by an immense iron portal.



The way onto the street is obstructed by trees and chairs. A self-defence militia formed on Saturday  to fight back against bandits.



"We are defending the synagogue like all houses on the street and we will not let anyone touch it," said Edward Benham, a 19-year-old computer science student.



The young Christian said that Jews normally came each Saturday but because of the lingering security problem, no one came last Saturday.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#75 Enmar

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 08:00 PM

Thanks, Zack, that is good news. For many years, the Jewish community prospered in Baghdad and lived in peace with the Muslim neighbors. The war of 1948 changed all that, they suddenly belonged to the other side, but some deep friendships were preserved.

The sad thing is that most of the treasures of the 2500 years old religious community were already stolen from the community by Sadam. These were looted from the museums in Baghdad with other important relics.
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#76 Rov Judicata

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 11:25 PM

Thanks for the story Zack..... that is rather heartening. :).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#77 Norville

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 06:34 AM

Good grief... I hadn't realized until today that they not only wrecked the National Museum, they burned the National Library! I can't tell you how that breaks my heart. Not only was I an archaeology student, but I was library staff for years. Helping to spread knowledge was my "calling". Yes, yes, I know how snotty and Eeevil Liberal that sounds -- too bloody bad. ;) (My politics... how about that I find education more useful than war?)

Yeah, torching one's culture is definitely "untidy". As we're a society that tends to think of "culture" as McDonalds, Hollywood movies and truly atrocious TV, Starbucks, blah blah blah, I'm sure it doesn't matter much. I'm sure we wouldn't even miss anything were revolutionaries to burn, say, the Constitution and all that old, dead history of ours. :sarcasm:
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#78 tennyson

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 07:17 AM

You know Norville, I'm a historian(formerly physcist) and a registered democrat and while I have disagreed with you in the past I have been very civil and I find both the generalization and attack in your post rather insulting.  I love libraries and spent most of my life in and out of them and just because I happen to have taken a different stance than you doesn't mean that my stance deserves to be demonized anymore than yours does. Apparently some people have hurt you but lashing out really doesn't help in the long run. Both self professed liberals and conservatives have agreed with and disagreed with you on points and it's not like I consider the loss of knowledge a good thing. But feel free to express your pain, just don't use it as a hammer against others.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#79 jon3831

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 08:24 AM

Paraphrased from Jon Stewart tonight:

Quote

Saddam's sphere of influence is limited to an apartment. The Iraqi Information Minister released a statement that Coalition forces shall meet their doom on the endtable, and the couch shall be their destruction by day, and their bed of death by night.

"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

WWCELeMD?

#80 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 08:27 AM

ROFL Jon!!!!! :lol:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.



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