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Iraq Updates

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#81 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 08:44 AM

Gotcha Saddam!!  We have the chem labs....  Now the scary thing is where the weapons are...  So much for Hans Blix and the UN.

U.S.: Mobile labs found in Iraq

Quote

U.S. troops have found 11 mobile laboratories buried south of Baghdad that are capable of biological and chemical uses, a U.S.  general said Monday.  There were no chemical or biological weapons with the containerized labs, which measure 20 feet square. But soldiers recovered "about 1,000 pounds" of documents from inside the labs, and the United States will examine those papers further, said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakley of the Army's 101st Airborne Division.

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#82 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 08:46 AM

^

I'm excited too CJ, but we're not there yet.

An apologist could easily say that the labs could be used for ANY chemical endeavour. We haven't found our smoking gun.

Yet.

Those documents will be tremendously helpful, I wager
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#83 Nikki Peppermint

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 08:56 AM

jon3831, on Apr 14 2003, 10:13 PM, said:

Paraphrased from Jon Stewart tonight:

Quote

Saddam's sphere of influence is limited to an apartment. The Iraqi Information Minister released a statement that Coalition forces shall meet their doom on the endtable, and the couch shall be their destruction by day, and their bed of death by night.
LOL!!!! Thanks Jon...:D

#84 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 09:00 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 15 2003, 05:35 AM, said:

I'm excited too CJ, but we're not there yet.

An apologist could easily say that the labs could be used for ANY chemical endeavour. We haven't found our smoking gun.

Yet.

Those documents will be tremendously helpful, I wager
Agreed on the apologist part.  Having them buried though is pretty good evidence to show the intent of Saddam’s regime.  Now if we get can get lucky and have those documents happen to say where the chemical weapons were stored or shipped.  I bet the Syrian border is being tightly monitored while we dig up sections of desert looking for any buried WMDs.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
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#85 jon3831

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 09:00 AM

Bingo.

Agreed with Rov that we're not there yet, but this is a *major* find. If it turns out that these labs weren't declared, that's a violation too.

I suspect it's a matter of time before we find the weapons themselves. After all, it's a big country, and there's a lot of ground left to cover.
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#86 eryn

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 09:06 AM

Just some info I thought I'd point out.

The Last Word

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Britain, U.S. can seize chance to reform UN
 
Global Television

Monday, April 14, 2003

So, the United Nations wants a big role in re-building post-war Iraq, does it?

Well, despite the valuable work done by some UN bodies, its overall record on peace-building needs serious scrutiny.

Remember Rwanda?

The UN wasn't willing to prevent genocide there.

Syria sits on the Security Council, despite the fact that its defence minister produces books and documentaries demonizing Jews.

Syria is also a member of the UN Human Rights Commission, which Libya chairs.

And if all that isn't ridiculous enough, guess who's chairing the UN disarmament conference next month?

Iran and Iraq. How can this be? The fact is, the United Nations operates on protocol more than on principle.

And when a world body treats jackboot regimes as morally equivalent to democracies, it can't be trusted to build peace.

But, like peace, let's give the UN a chance -- to reform. America and Britain should make the UN's involvement in post-war Iraq conditional on its ability to distinguish between democracy and dictatorship.

The UN can start regaining credibility by appointing new, appropriate, co-chairs for the disarmament conference.

Regime change in Iraq presents a perfect opportunity for change at the United Nations, in the name of justice.

I hope Washington and London use this moment to achieve a second triumph over tyranny.

I'm Irshad Manji and that's The Last Word.

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#87 Kevin Street

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 09:26 AM

Apologies if this is a repost.

Here's one's journalist's harrowing story of what he found after the fall of Mosul. It's pretty scary stuff. (And it's a Salom.com article, so you have to watch one of their little commercials to read the whole thing.)

I hope something good comes out of this invasion. But it's going to be an uphill battle, especially since the Iraqis are taking their own country apart at the seams.
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#88 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 10:09 PM

Quote

I hope something good comes out of this invasion. But it's going to be an uphill battle, especially since the Iraqis are taking their own country apart at the seams.

People aren't being fed into plastic machines, and 150 children have been freed. I'd say some good already has come out of this. And we'll see how long the instability in Baghdad really lasts.

Update:

Partial power has been restored in Baghdad. :cool:
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#89 Kevin Street

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 10:55 PM

Well, with repect to the very impressive achievements of your armed forces (capturing a country in 26 days is no small feat), I'd say the question of relative worth is still far from decided.

While it is great news that those children were freed (along with who knows how many other political prisoners), and it is great that Saddam and his thugs can no longer use and abuse the people of Iraq, it's still very much up in the air as to whether or not this invasion was worth the cost. For while some innocents have benefited already, hundreds of other innocents have been killed in the bombing and fighting, and many hundreds of thousands more have lost their possessions, jobs and homes. No one knows yet what the economy of Iraq will look like after this, much less the political system.

The chaos we're seeing in places like Mosul and Baghdad is the inevitable cost of war, a temporary anarchy that probably happens whenever a government is overthrown (exacerbated in this case by the poverty Saddam kept his citizens in), and while it is ugly, it's not a final indictment of the invasion.

The real worth of what has happened in Iraq will be determined over the next couple of years, as the US helps to set up an interim government. If the Iraqi people are better off than they were before (and less likely to give weapons to terrorists) then it was worth it. But if they are worse off than they were under Saddam, either in some kind of Afghanistan-style anarchic neglect, an Iran-style Shiite theocracy, or some other as yet unknown failure state, then it will not have been worth the cost at all.

There are reasons for hope. The US has a pretty good record of helping its defeated enemies make better lives, so this may simply be a modern repeat of past successes like Germany and Japan. But it's going to take continued effort and attention for many years to turn a country that has never known democracy into a model for change in the Middle East. There will be setbacks on the way, and many factional leaders in Iraq and other lands will try to hijack the process (like those Imams in "Saddam City" who are already imposing a religious dictatorship on Iraq's biggest slum). The United States government has given itself a great responsibility here, and it will have to put in years of focused effort before any clear results can be seen.
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#90 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 10:56 PM

Updates:
- Iraqis Hold Postwar Planning Meeting
-Sec. State Powell stated that the United States has concerns about Syria and Iran but that "there is no war plan" to attack any other countries. Coalition Forces have cut off a pipeline that has been delivering illegal Iraqi oil to Syria.  
- CENTCOM: At this point there are no more burning oil wells in Iraq.
- Something seems to be up with the potential chemical lab facilities.  Now they are saying they may have been tied to the construction of conventional weapons.
- The Red Cross is returning to Baghdad and has operations underway there once again.  
- Italian Foreign Minister Frattini announced that Italy is ready to send between 2,500 and 3,000 troops to Iraq for humanitarian reasons
- Rumsfeld: Coalition Forces now control Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit.

Quote

Kevin: I hope something good comes out of this invasion. But it's going to be an uphill battle, especially since the Iraqis are taking their own country apart at the seams.

I agree with Rov.  

Good has all ready come from the invasion.  The rest is just a question of time and effort to stabilize the situation out placing Iraq on an even keel.  As for the situation with the looting the troops are switching even now from a more combat orientated type operation to the role of peacekeeping.  Troops have secured key sites in Baghdad, started patrols, and begun the reestablishment of a indigenous police force.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
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#91 tennyson

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 08:33 AM

I thought the summation from this week's Time might provide some interesting perspective:(from page 48)

"In the meantime, he and others could savor what had just happened-after 20 days, a 350-mile charge to Baghdad, 32,000 combat missions, 20,000 bombs-and what had not occurred. The country's major city's fell without the weeks of grinding door-to-door fighting that many had feared. Fewer than 120 U.S. soldiers perished, a figure at the low end of the most hopeful forecasts. Iraq's bridges and dams and essential infrastructure survived. While no arsenal of chemical and biological weapons had yet been found, those arms had also not been used-on U.S. forces or on Tel Aviv. There was no crisis of Refugees on the borders, though the U.N.  had predicted 1.5 million. The oil fields were secure. The Turks and Kurds were not, for the time being, fighting a war within a war. It was a moment of relief to have at least come this far without those fears being realized, even knowing harder days would surely follow."
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#92 Kevin Street

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 10:12 AM

Yes, the American and British militaries did an amazing job. This will go down in history as one the most successful campaigns, ever.
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#93 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 06:15 AM

Hanson strikes again:
Our Western Mob: From the graveyard of Kabul to the quagmire of Iraq to the looting of Baghdad.

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The jubilation of liberating millions from fascism and removing the world’s most odious dictator apparently lasted about 12 hours. I was listening to a frustrated Mr. Rumsfeld last Friday in a news briefing as he tried to deal with a host of furious and crazy questions — a journalistic circus that was nevertheless predictable even before the war started.

I thought immediately of the macabre aftermath to the battle of Arginusae in 406 B.C. After destroying a great part of the Peloponnesian fleet in the most dramatic Athenian naval victory of the war, the popular assembly abruptly voted to execute six of their eight successful generals (the other two wisely never came back to Athens) on charges that they had failed to rescue seamen who were clinging to the wreckage.

The historian Xenophon records the feeding frenzy and shouting of the assembled throng. Forget that Sparta felt beaten and was ready for peace after such a catastrophic defeat; forget the brilliant seamanship and command of the Athenian triremes; forget that a ferocious storm had made retrieval of the dead and rescue of the missing sailors almost impossible; forget even that to try the generals collectively was contrary to Athenian law. Instead the people demanded perfection in addition to mere overwhelming success — and so in frustration devoured their own elected officials. The macabre incident was infamous in Greek history (the philosopher Socrates almost alone resisted the mob’s rule), a reminder how a society can go mad, turn on its benefactors, throw away a victory — and go on to lose the entire war.

Something like that craziness often takes hold of our own elites and media in the midst of perhaps the most brilliantly executed plan in modern American military history. Rather than inquiring how an entire country was overrun in a little over three weeks at a cost of not more than a few hundred casualties, reporters instead wail at the televised scenes of a day of looting and lawlessness.

Instead I had been expecting at least some interviews about bridges not blown due to the rapidity of the advance. Could someone tell us how special forces saved the oil fields? How Seals prevented the dreaded oil slicks? Whose courage and sacrifice saved the dams? And how so few missiles were launched? Exactly why and how did the Republican Guard cave?

In short, would any reporter demonstrate a smidgeon of curiosity — other than condemning a plan they scarcely understood — about the mechanics of the furious battle for Iraq? It would be as if America forgot about Patton’s race to the German border, and instead focused only on Frenchmen shaving the heads of Vichy collaborators, or decided that it had not been worth freeing the Italian peninsula because a mob had mutilated and hung Mussolini from his heels. Did any remember what had happened to a Russian armored column that tried to enter Grozny to control that city? Did any have a clue what Germany or Italy was like in June 1945?

What was striking about the Iraqi capitulations was the absence of general looting on the part of the victorious army. From the fall of Constantinople to the Iraqi takeover of Kuwait City, winners usually plunder and pillage. American and British soldiers instead did the opposite, trying to protect others’ property as they turned on water and power. That much of the looting was no more indiscriminate than what we saw in Los Angeles after the Rodney King Verdict, in the New York during blackouts, or in some major cities after Super Bowl victories, made no impression on the reporting. Remember this was a long-suffering impoverished people lashing out at Baathists — not affluent, smug American kids looting and breaking windows at the World Trade Organization in Seattle.

Quote

There is also a final reason that explains our demand for instantaneous perfection. It is often a trademark of successful Western societies that create such freedom and affluence to fool themselves that they are a hair’s breadth away from utopia. Journalists who pad around with palm pilots, pounds of high-tech gear, dapper clothes, and expensive educations have convinced themselves that if lesser people were as caring or as sensitive as themselves then we could all live in bliss. The subtext of the daily Western media barrage has been that if we were just smarter, more moral, or better informed, then we could liberate a country the size of California in days, not weeks, lose zero soldiers, not a 110, and be instantaneously greeted by happy Iraqis who would shake hands, return to work, and quietly forget thirty years of terror as they voted in a Gandhi.

Anything less and Mssrs. Rumsfeld, Meyers, Franks, “the plan,” — somebody or something at least! — must be held accountable for the absence of utopia.

But that is a word, they should remember, that means not a “good place” but “no place” at all.

Quote

Kevin Street:: I'd say the question of relative worth is still far from decided.
The relative nature of just what the situation is if anything far from undecided. This entire situation reminds me of when the media and many not in favor of the war were predicting a long drawn out war with heavy Iraqi resistance. A house by house battle for Baghdad where Coalition Forces would have to level the city to take it. This was all because of a few relatively minor hits on the supply lines by the Feyadeen and other minor setbacks. Instead we saw a few minor changes occur like the 82nd being brought up to deal with the Feyadeen in the rear. All of this quickly put the military side of the conflict right back on trap. Within days of those predictions on the part of the "experts" entire divisions of the Iraqi Army/Republican Guard vanished and the regime melted away. Even the Iraqi Information Minister might admit now that our supply lines were not cut and our troops weren't bogged down in house to house fighting.
Now we are expected to believe these experts when they scream that Iraq is on the verge of falling into total anarchy and collapse? These same experts who have yet to say "opps maybe we were slightly wrong about the end of the world coming".

Quote

Kevin Street: While it is great news that those children were freed (along with who knows how many other political prisoners), and it is great that Saddam and his thugs can no longer use and abuse the people of Iraq, it's still very much up in the air as to whether or not this invasion was worth the cost. For while some innocents have benefited already, hundreds of other innocents have been killed in the bombing and fighting, and many hundreds of thousands more have lost their possessions, jobs and homes. No one knows yet what the economy of Iraq will look like after this, much less the political system.

You say that some innocents have benefited all ready; whereas I would argue that the majority have benefited all ready. The people are enjoying a level of freedom that none of them have ever experience in their lifetime. Medical and humanitarian aid is starting to flow into the country. This aid will actually reach the people rather than being rerouted by Saddam in a manner that will aid his remaining in power. How many children and adults will now be saved from starvation because those supplies are now actually reaching them. While every single loss is tragic; they are far from being either the majority or the entire picture. I'd be the first to say it is the responsibility of the Coalition to see that those people who suffered because of our action are taken care of or haver the means to take care of themselves.

As for the economy of Iraq; I say things are looking up for it compared to the outlooks for it on the part of the "experts" prior to this conflict. We did not see the large-scale destruction of the oilfields that many predicted would occur; in fact CENTCOM is reporting that not a single oil fire is occurring in Iraq currently. The infrastructure is largely intact and not destroyed by a retreating regime like many indicated it would be.  The only bridge that was destroyed, that I know of, is one that collapsed under the weight of an Abrams.  The Iraqi Police Force is back on the job in Baghdad coordinating with US troops while the power grid is being restored.  Civil Servants are getting back to their duties and being paid in a much needed influx of US dollars.  
On top of that Bush is pressing for the dropping of sanctions.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 17 April 2003 - 06:15 AM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#94 MovieImp

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 04:20 PM

It's also interesting that this is not front page news any more on the Wall Street Journal.  I was so used to seeing the head news story on the front page and about 3 days ago you started to have to hunt for the news in that paper on the war in Iraq.  Short attention spans it seems.  I'm also seeing where it's no longer a ratings boon so it's on to something new.
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#95 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 01:48 AM

^ It's much the same thing here. People are sh*tting themselves over SARS and West Nile. They don't have time for Iraq anymore.

And dare I say, that's a good thing.

:cool:
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#96 jon3831

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 01:01 AM

Eight of Spades

ABC and MSNBC are reporting that Tariq Aziz surrendered.
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#97 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 01:51 AM

jon3831, on Apr 24 2003, 09:45 PM, said:

ABC and MSNBC are reporting that Tariq Aziz surrendered.
Now this has real potential for a intelligence coup when it comes to nabbing others and WMDs.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#98 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 01:55 AM

^ Actually, its being downplayed on that grounds because Aziz had in recent years begun to be eclipsed in influence as Saddam's sons gained it.

Nonetheless, as one of the most well known faces of the regime in the international media, it's a very visible sign that the regime is well and truly done for.

Ro

#99 G1223

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 02:21 AM

This could turn into a bad version of a Penn and teller joke "Is this your Card"
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#100 eryn

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 08:05 AM

Side note.... or rather, a side question. :p

Where would one get a deck of theses cards, my dad *really* wants a pack. :p ;)

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