Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Ward of State Thwarted in Seeking an Abortion

Abortion Ward of the State

  • Please log in to reply
185 replies to this topic

#41 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:54 AM

G1223, on May 1 2005, 08:35 PM, said:

Now I agree about giving her the abortion but I also see where the anger at paying for this child's mistake comes from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this is about money, then shame on all who value money so highly that they would be angry about spending it on health care for a child too young and too poor to manage on her own!  Shame!  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#42 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:56 AM

^ that kind of hyprocrasy I can't stand... not that all pro-life people are like that, but that lady isn't truely pro-life if she says that.... I wonder what that woman would do if her daughter "got in trouble" and didn't want to have an abortion.... Considering she go against her own supposive beliefe to help her get an abortion. If she'd pressure her kid into having an abortion to keep up appearances (or supposively not ruin her kids/her own life) how does she figure she any better than her boyfriend that pressured her to have an abortion?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#43 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:56 AM

sierraleone, on May 2 2005, 05:38 AM, said:

eloisel, on May 1 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

Again, have to ask - why is she pregnant?
Was she raped?  Let's get the rapist off the street too.
Is she sexually active?  Teach her some birth control and self control.
Is there no concern about her exposure to AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases?  The fact that she is pregnant tells me she was having unprotected sex if she wasn't raped.  Are these not health issues also?  AIDS isn't going to go away with an abortion.  Protecting her and others from rape isn't going to be solved with aborting the non-criminal fetus.

So far as taxpayer dollars coming in no matter the decision, the difference is what I'm willing to pay for and what I'm not. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And there are some taxpayers that would not be willing to pay for those other things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And shame on them too!  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#44 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:58 AM

sierraleone, on May 2 2005, 05:56 AM, said:

^ that kind of hyprocrasy I can't stand... not that all pro-life people are like that, but that lady isn't truely pro-life if she says that.... I wonder what that woman would do if her daughter "got in trouble" and didn't want to have an abortion.... Considering she go against her own supposive beliefe to help her get an abortion. If she'd pressure her kid into having an abortion to keep up appearances (or supposively not ruin her kids/her own life) how does she figure she any better than her boyfriend that pressured her to have an abortion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well there you go.  Appearances.  Control.  That's what she was all about.  

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#45 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 09:00 AM

TechHarper, on May 1 2005, 09:12 PM, said:

Most pro-choice individuals are just that, pro-choice. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly.  A life without options is no life anyway.  :(

Nonny
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#46 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 09:03 AM

Nonny, on May 2 2005, 09:54 AM, said:

G1223, on May 1 2005, 08:35 PM, said:

Now I agree about giving her the abortion but I also see where the anger at paying for this child's mistake comes from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this is about money, then shame on all who value money so highly that they would be angry about spending it on health care for a child too young and too poor to manage on her own!  Shame!  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Gawd yeah... maybe if they spent more money on educating this chiild before hand. Considering how screwed up most these kids are, that are in foster care, they should all (w/ parental consent if neccessary for temporary placements/etc) be educated and counselled.

To be honest: The mistake is done. No going back now. As I stated above, somehow the tax payer is going to end up paying for this. If someone if that angry over the money, do the calculations on which would cost more  :wacko: Not that I think of G that way

Don't think of it as paying for the CHILD's mistake, but think of it as paying for the Child's PARENTS' mistake. Not to lessen the mistake the child made herself, BUT had they been better parents she woudln't be in foster care, and if she had still gotten pregnant she would have been their responsibility.

Edited by sierraleone, 02 May 2005 - 09:06 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#47 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:48 AM

G1223, on Apr 30 2005, 08:47 PM, said:

Abortion laws are a compromise becasue this issue is something not everyone agrees upon and the fact with all compromisesyou do not get all of what you want and neither side is going to come away happy but will come away something that can be accepted by all parties.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It shouldn't be about compromise....It shouldn't be about what I would want, or what you would want...and it most certainly shouldn't be about what some sleezy politican, or some "right to lifer" wants...It's what the mother wants.

People who try and force their views on others are lower then whale Sh*t IMO, and that's what the "right to lifer's" do...they try and force their views on others...Course the other side also tends to try and force their view on others also...which annoys me as well.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#48 Cheile

Cheile

    proud J/Cer ~ ten years and counting

  • Islander
  • 10,776 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:52 AM

my question would be....if they let this little twit get an abortion, what are they gonna do when she gets knocked up six months later?

as for ppl claiming pro-life ppl won't care once the baby is born if it GETS the chance to be born, there might be a childless couple who would want that baby.  maybe they should line up someone who will take the baby, then there's no excuse for the abortion.

of course considering how @#$@#$ed up that dept of Florida is, they couldn't possibly be that organized. :sarcasm:

Posted Image


"Andromeda may be over but it's not dead. Not as long as we have fanfic writers dedicated to keeping it alive.  Whether you accept everything as canon or stop at a certain point. Whether you accept and enjoy Nu Drom or only accept Classic Drom, it will never be over.  Not as long as we have each other [and Beka], who binds us all together." ~ Mary Rose

Twitter * Facebook * ExIsle at Facebook

icon by mercscilla @ LJ

#49 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,215 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:58 AM

Cheile, on May 2 2005, 12:52 PM, said:

my question would be....if they let this little twit get an abortion, what are they gonna do when she gets knocked up six months later?

as for ppl claiming pro-life ppl won't care once the baby is born if it GETS the chance to be born, there might be a childless couple who would want that baby.  maybe they should line up someone who will take the baby, then there's no excuse for the abortion.

of course considering how @#$@#$ed up that dept of Florida is, they couldn't possibly be that organized. :sarcasm:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Some might argue that certainly there is an excuse, *if* the mother doesn't want to carry to term, even w/ a couple willing to take the child for adoption. That kind of decision doesn't settle well w/ me and it isn't one I think I'd be willing to make, but is it my decision? And of course there is still the excuse, it is more dangerous for the mother, from a medical stand point, of carrying the child to term at 13, than aborting it.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#50 Cheile

Cheile

    proud J/Cer ~ ten years and counting

  • Islander
  • 10,776 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:02 PM

i'm pretty sure constant abortions (in addition to killing innocent children) are just as detrimental to the health of a girl that age.

kids like this don't stop at one pregnancy, whether or not any of their children get the chance to live.  they just keep screwing around and expect the state to pay for their problems.

Posted Image


"Andromeda may be over but it's not dead. Not as long as we have fanfic writers dedicated to keeping it alive.  Whether you accept everything as canon or stop at a certain point. Whether you accept and enjoy Nu Drom or only accept Classic Drom, it will never be over.  Not as long as we have each other [and Beka], who binds us all together." ~ Mary Rose

Twitter * Facebook * ExIsle at Facebook

icon by mercscilla @ LJ

#51 Eskaminzim

Eskaminzim

    Head eggs and butt toast

  • Islander
  • 559 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:15 PM

Just for curiosity's sake, why does she *need* an excuse?  Abortion is legal.  She isn't required to provide an excuse to get one (or not get one) any more than any one of us needs to provide an excuse in order to be allowed to eat a meal, buy a house, drive a car, play a game of basketball, or go shopping in peace without a nosy public demanding to know why we want and/or NEED to do any of these things.

Abortion may be controversial, but it is still very much legal here in the US.  And as far as I can tell, *she* wasn't the one who brought the public into this.

#52 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:45 PM

Eskaminzim, on May 2 2005, 12:15 PM, said:

Just for curiosity's sake, why does she *need* an excuse?  Abortion is legal.  She isn't required to provide an excuse to get one (or not get one) any more than any one of us needs to provide an excuse in order to be allowed to eat a meal, buy a house, drive a car, play a game of basketball, or go shopping in peace without a nosy public demanding to know why we want and/or NEED to do any of these things.

Abortion may be controversial, but it is still very much legal here in the US.  And as far as I can tell, *she* wasn't the one who brought the public into this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



What Eskaminzim said!

And as a matter of clarification, I am pro-choice, it's not my place nor my right to tell another woman what she must do or not do with her own body.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#53 Anastashia

Anastashia

    Tyrant Matriarch and Pegan Too!

  • Islander
  • 11,777 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:47 PM

Eskaminzim, on May 2 2005, 01:15 PM, said:

Just for curiosity's sake, why does she *need* an excuse?  Abortion is legal.  She isn't required to provide an excuse to get one (or not get one) any more than any one of us needs to provide an excuse in order to be allowed to eat a meal, buy a house, drive a car, play a game of basketball, or go shopping in peace without a nosy public demanding to know why we want and/or NEED to do any of these things.

Abortion may be controversial, but it is still very much legal here in the US.  And as far as I can tell, *she* wasn't the one who brought the public into this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


She doesn't need an excuse Eskaminzim, the question is does she need consent. Apparently FL law says DCF cannot consent to an abortion for her and she is in their custody. But FL law also apparently says that minors don't need parental consent. So there's a contradiction in FL law IIUC.

My problem with all this is we still have no one looking at the unborn child's right to life. To me that should still be the primary issue. In this case it's getting buried in a legal battle about the contradiction in FL law.

As for anyone who calls themselves pro-choice. She had a choice (unless she was raped and I don't include statutory rape) to have sex. That's when she gets the choice. Once she's made that choice she needs to deal with the consequences of that choice. If you get pregnant because of that choice then you should have the baby.

Edited by Anastashia, 02 May 2005 - 01:51 PM.

The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

Posted Image


#54 Eskaminzim

Eskaminzim

    Head eggs and butt toast

  • Islander
  • 559 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 02:35 PM

Anastashia:

You write (forgive me because I still haven't got the 'quote' thingy worked out yet):

>>My problem with all this is we still have no one looking at the unborn child's right to life. To me that should still be the primary issue. <<

Well, it would be, if abortion were illegal.  But, once again, it's not.  The fetus, at this stage in its development (if I'm reading the story correctly) HAS no "right to life".  Its existence can be *legally* terminated.  As far as the current law goes, it isn't a primary issue...it's a non issue.  Abortion is perfectly legal.

As for whether the young woman in question suffers beneath the burden of contradictory laws, consent vs. non consent, I think I might know the answer to this one, and I think it goes along the same lines as whether or not a female Medicaid patient can undergo voluntary sterilization without a witness co-signing the sterilization form.

Because it is in the best interests of the government, financially, for a particular pregnancy to be terminated (if the pregnancy is harbored by a ward of the state, meaning that government monies go toward the raising and care of the one pregnant, and the child in question), and for poor mothers to be sterilized (so that Medicaid doesn't have to shell out more money for delivery costs and healthcare for the child once it's born), the government, state and local, takes special care to keep from being compared to Nazi Germany.  If the patient undergoing a TOP or a sterilization didn't have a witness to her voluntary desire to undergo such procedures, she could, one day, turn around and sue the government, saying "They MADE me get my tubes tied (or have an abortion) because I'm poor!" and what a media and moral ruckus THAT would be!

So, to get out from under the onus of "state mandated" sterilization/abortions, folks have to be sure that these things are done voluntarily and with the full and knowing consent of the patient about to undergo the procedure.

Because this young woman is a ward of the state, then, everyone must be satisfied that is isn't the GOVERNMENT that's wanting her to get the abortion, but rather she, herself.

At least, that's what I think is going on here, as that's been my experience in the past.

#55 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:13 PM

Quote

Anastasia: As for anyone who calls themselves pro-choice. She had a choice (unless she was raped and I don't include statutory rape) to have sex. That's when she gets the choice. Once she's made that choice she needs to deal with the consequences of that choice. If you get pregnant because of that choice then you should have the baby.

Sounds simple. But abortion is, apparently, a legal choice for her. You may not like it that some women and girls have that option, but it nevertheless remains.

My preference is that women not become pregnant unless they want a child. But it's a far from perfect world. That's not excusing behavior (or accidents like failed birth control methods) but acknowledging a reality.

As far as my concern about the fetus, I become quite concerned about fetuses when they're viable--able to live outside the womb. Until then, I think the choice to carry the fetus to term or to abort it ought to be the woman's. Personally, I wouldn't make the choice to abort unless my health were threatened or unless there was something seriously wrong with the fetus. But that's me. With that awareness, I did all I could do to prevent becoming pregnant when I was active sexually with men.

But I'm not comfortable with the idea of making abortion illegal. I realize that the circumstances surrounding every pregancy are different. In some cases, if a teenage girl becomes pregnant, she's out of the house and on the streets, along with the child. If a young woman becomes pregnant and she's in an abusive relationship that she's attempting to leave, she may fear for her life and the life of any child she'd bring into the world. If a thirteen year old girl, like this one, has three times the likelihood of dying from childbirth than from an abortion, I would hope she has the option of a safe, legal abortion.

Have you ever read any of Margaret Sanger's writings on the conditions of women before Planned Parenthood, contraception, and legal abortion? I'd hate to see us turn the clock back to those days.

Like I said before, I'd like to see abortions decrease. It would be wonderful if everyone who is sexually active used reliable contraception if they don't want to become parents. But until that day happens, outlawing abortion isn't a solution.

So, sure I care about fetuses. I care about them also when they grow up to be 13 year-old "twerps." It's easy to love a fetus. They're inkblots. You can imagine them growing up to believe in what you believe, act like you'd act. It's a greater challenge to care about the ones who are born and behave in ways that you disapprove of.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#56 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:15 PM

Quote

E: Because this young woman is a ward of the state, then, everyone must be satisfied that is isn't the GOVERNMENT that's wanting her to get the abortion, but rather she, herself.

That was my reading of the law, too, Eska-blah-blah  ;) .

The girl has a legal right to decide for herself to have an abortion. DCF is just trying to cover their fannies.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#57 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:03 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on May 2 2005, 04:48 PM, said:

It shouldn't be about compromise....It shouldn't be about what I would want, or what you would want...and it most certainly shouldn't be about what some sleezy politican, or some "right to lifer" wants...It's what the mother wants.

People who try and force their views on others are lower then whale Sh*t IMO, and that's what the "right to lifer's" do...they try and force their views on others...Course the other side also tends to try and force their view on others also...which annoys me as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What limits are you wanting to set LotS? Nearly every law we have is a compromise in one way or the other. People both men and women do not want abortion just as there are men and women who want abortion as a choice.

The laws we have are the compromises each community has set.

But since all right to lifers and sleezeballs why not prevent them from voting? Why not find their homes and burn them down and kill all who try to escape the flames.

I mean they are only your neighbors and want the laws to also represent their veiws.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#58 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 05:23 PM

The problem, G1223, is that the "right-to-lifers" who want to roll back Roe v. Wade don't just want the law to "represent their views."  They want the law to force others to conform to their views.  That's the difference between the right-to-lifers and the pro-choicers.  Pro-choicers don't want to force anyone to have an abortion against her will.  Right-to-lifers, on the other hand,  are quite willing to force a woman to bear a child against her will to conform to their views.
Posted Image

#59 Anastashia

Anastashia

    Tyrant Matriarch and Pegan Too!

  • Islander
  • 11,777 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 05:35 PM

waterpanther, on May 2 2005, 06:23 PM, said:

The problem, G1223, is that the "right-to-lifers" who want to roll back Roe v. Wade don't just want the law to "represent their views."  They want the law to force others to conform to their views.  That's the difference between the right-to-lifers and the pro-choicers.  Pro-choicers don't want to force anyone to have an abortion against her will.  Right-to-lifers, on the other hand,  are quite willing to force a woman to bear a child against her will to conform to their views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No waterpanther pro-choicers went to keep legal the taking of an innocent life. Murder isn't legal in any other circumstance. When one weighs the difference between taking a life and bearing a child the level of morality just doesn't equate.
The Science Fiction Examiner

In the quiet of Midden a young child grows.
Does the salvation of his people grow with him?
"Everything we do now is for the child"

"I made a mistake,
just follow along,
isn't that what tyranny is all about?"
Sheila M---my Praise Band Director

For as long as I shall live
I will testify to love
I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough
Testify to Love

Posted Image


#60 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 02 May 2005 - 06:24 PM

So if abortion is murder, then you are against it in all circumstances?  If a woman has an ectopic pregnancy, which will certainly kill her, then she cannot have an abortion because that would involve "taking an innocent life?"  Bear in mind that in equating abortion with murder, you have just set an absolute standard--unless the mother is also "innocent" in your view, then her right to life does not meet the standard you set for the fetus' competing right.
Posted Image



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Abortion, Ward of the State

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users