99 replies to this topic

[waterpanther]

Good grief, no one's mentioned the only really important thing here.  Is George going to leave Laura and marry the horse?

[Bad Wolf]

Delvo I'm not writing martians into ANYTHING.

Observe the sequence of events:

First connie says this:

Consubstantial, on May 4 2005, 11:52 AM, said:

This thread violates board guidelines far more than the Zwolff thread which drew an earlier warning.  I officially request the forum mods and board admins review this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then Kevin said:

Quote

Don't worry, Consubstantial. We've definitely been watching, and so far everyone has been fairly civil.

To which Connie replied:

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With all due respect Kevin, that is a crock of B***S**T! The administration's decision to permit the continuance of this thread proves Drew and every other conservative (even Ogami) correct about administrative favoritism. To have warned zwolff over the Schiavo thread and to allow this bashing to continue is the height of hypocrisy. I am now embarrassed for all of you.

To which Kevin replied:

Quote

All right, this is going too far. Zack, you're crossing the line here and your behavior is unacceptable.

All through the thread you've been using very strong language to dismiss the arguments of your opponents, but calling Mr.Calgary's post "revisionist bull****" is too much. This kind of rhetoric reaches the level of a personal insult, and there will be an edit request. We're here to debate things, not to argue.

I don't know what gets said in the sl so how it is you expect me to know that is beyond me.  But based on what's been said in THIS thread it seems obvious that Kevin's last comment to Zack was directly in response to connie's comparisons of this thread to the zwolf thread.

So if that's what "Martians" look like to you, then that's your business.  To me it looks very straight forward.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 05 May 2005 - 09:38 PM.

[Shalamar]

Lil, I can say that the timing of certain posts may look like one thing when in fact they are not.  Kevin's post was NOT inspired by Connies, despite what the timing might imply/ look like.

and thank you ever so much Delvo for noting that we the staff sure do seem to be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

edited cause I can't spell

Edited by Shalamar, 05 May 2005 - 09:48 PM.

[Delvo]

Una Salus Lillius, on May 5 2005, 09:37 PM, said:

I don't know what gets said in the sl so how it is you expect me to know that is beyond me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Expect you to? This simply makes no sense. The real situation closer to the opposite; I mentioned it precisely because I knew you (almost certainly) couldn't see, because you had appeared to be acting as if you could by ascribing a wildly erroneous reason to a staff member's post.

Una Salus Lillius, on May 5 2005, 09:37 PM, said:

But based on what's been said in THIS thread it seems obvious that Kevin's last comment to Zack was directly in response to connie's comparisons of this thread to the zwolf thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a shortage of real connections between the one thing and the other to base such an idea on. To suggest such a cause and effect without any real direct indicators of it is to write Martians into the story. The timing is nothing, any more than the fact that I ate a Vietnamese pancake for lunch yesterday and then saw a dead animal by the road later on means that my eating a Vietnamese pancake caused the animal to die by the road.

And plenty of evidence of other factors involved were in plain site right here, that you apparently ignored (the multiple other posts that had been made between KS's post and the previous one, the names he actually named as having done something wrong, and the fact that they were the same names as the authors of those in-between posts).

[Bad Wolf]

So Kevin, what is the difference for purposes of the rules regarding "arguing too strongly" between calling someone's argument "revisionist bullsh*t" and accusing someone of "reading Martians into" something or making "wildly erroneous" statements.



Frankly I don't see a problem with any of those three.  Lively discussion is healthy (even if I happen to think Delvo is full of it in this instance...oops, I mean, "wildly erroneous").

Lil

[Cardie]

Zack, the tone and temperature of a thread often come from how it's started.  Consider this counter-example on the same subject.  The thread's title is something like "The double standard strikes again" or "Heinz Kerry's critics mum on First Lady's off-color joke."

Then you link to the same thread and express your same feeling that the previous critics of Heinz Kerry are hypocritical.  You've made your same point.  However, you've not called out to a specific member (in a way that sounds like a challenge) and you haven't generalized about all Republicans but have targeted specifically those who came down hard on Teresa and Whoopi but excuse Laura Bush.

That's not that much of a change, but it does take the personal tone out of the thread, at least at its start.

Cardie

[DWF]

Where'd the Martians come from? And nobody better say Mars.

[MuseZack]

Cardie, on May 6 2005, 03:32 AM, said:

Zack, the tone and temperature of a thread often come from how it's started.  Consider this counter-example on the same subject.  The thread's title is something like "The double standard strikes again" or "Heinz Kerry's critics mum on First Lady's off-color joke."

Then you link to the same thread and express your same feeling that the previous critics of Heinz Kerry are hypocritical.  You've made your same point.  However, you've not called out to a specific member (in a way that sounds like a challenge) and you haven't generalized about all Republicans but have targeted specifically those who came down hard on Teresa and Whoopi but excuse Laura Bush.

That's not that much of a change, but it does take the personal tone out of the thread, at least at its start.

Cardie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cardie, as always your sagacity puts the rest of us to shame.  You're absolutely right, and I regret that I let my residual irritation at a few of last year's election-related threads bleed over into the tone of my thread-starting post.  I'm still a little perplexed by some of the moderator actions and I stand by the substance of my initial comments, but I wish I'd done it the way you suggested instead, and I apologize to the board at large for not providing a better example in setting the tone here.  

Consider it a lesson learned.

[G1223]

Zack I accept the appolgy in the spirt it seem intended.

[Kevin Street]

Una Salus Lillius said:

I don't know what gets said in the sl so how it is you expect me to know that is beyond me.  But based on what's been said in THIS thread it seems obvious that Kevin's last comment to Zack was directly in response to connie's comparisons of this thread to the zwolf thread.

God knows I don't want to bump this thread again, but to answer your question: no, my post was written before I'd read Consubstantial's last post. I'd been composing it for awhile, and then posted without refreshing the thread first. After I saw her post, I edited mine to include a response to her at the bottom.

And no, we've been watching this thread and debating what to do long before Connie's first post as well, so the action taken here wasn't in response to anyone's specific complaint. Sometimes things that seem obvious aren't, really.

[Lin731]

I would soooooooooooooooooo NOT want to be a mod here. No matter what you do someone is gonna raise Hell about it.

[Zwolf]

I know the "milking a male horse" joke sounds pretty PG when you read it in a transcript, but it's a lot worse in the video, because Laura does this "jerking off" hand gesture while she's saying it, and it's pretty obscene!

(Okay, she doesn't really do that, but the thread has drifted so far that I figure I may as well be obnoxious and amuse somebody, if only myself. )

Anyway, I've examined the patterns on the board and I've discovered that there is a pretty big bias around here... but, it's not against conservatives, and it's not against liberals.  Nope.  The bias around here is against people with a "Z" in their initials.  

Yep.  Me 'n' Zack are an oppressed minority.   And I'm filled with remorse when I think if that one guy who was chased off from a terrible combination of ya'll's meanness and his own damnable free will... poor ZZTopFan, he was doomed from the start, he never even had a chance!  Come back, ZZTopFan, come baaaaaaccck!

Anyway, regarding the in-fighting over Laura's routine, that's one of the dangers of strongly allying one's political party with religion.  It's tough to get elected without doing that, but it's almost impossible to maintain harmony if you do, because one thing religions are really, really good at is creating schisms.  Any variation from complete uniformity will result in all kinds of sects and violence.  That's why the South is jam-packed with churches, and most of 'em are Baptist.  They keep breaking off and splintering so they can snipe at each other, 'cuz one says dancing is sinful and the other one doesn't, etc.   It's pretty funny from my bring-'em-all-down standpoint, but probably kinda sad from theirs.  There'll likely be big problems down the road from that.

Cheers,

Zwolf

[sierraleone]

I ddin't have problems w/ Laura's jokes.... as other people have argued it was good natured fun poked at her own team.

I don't know if Kerry's wife had done the same thing whether we'd be in an uproar... it would probably depend on how good she is as a joke teller, these things aren't black/white.

What I'm more concerned about if this is a publicity image ploy.... To soften Bush's image... How often have we seen Bush's lighter side (granted, I'd hope you Americans would see it more often than I do).
I mean he is human, but I don't like that this could be being done to make him more likable... who cares if he is likable or not, what kind of job is he doing? While we debate this, and laugh (or cry) over this, what are we not paying attention to that is much more important?

[sierraleone]

waterpanther, on May 5 2005, 10:04 PM, said:

Good grief, no one's mentioned the only really important thing here.  Is George going to leave Laura and marry the horse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL Waterpanther

(reading backwards through the thread playing catch-up, no one mind me )

[Nonprofit]

Quote

MuseZack Posted Yesterday, 11:31 PM

Cardie, as always your sagacity puts the rest of us to shame. You're absolutely right, and I regret that I let my residual irritation at a few of last year's election-related threads bleed over into the tone of my thread-starting post. I'm still a little perplexed by some of the moderator actions and I stand by the substance of my initial comments, but I wish I'd done it the way you suggested instead, and I apologize to the board at large for not providing a better example in setting the tone here.

Consider it a lesson learned.

I had decided not to post my opinion in this thread because the title was a bit "off" to me.    

Zack, I also accept and appreciate the appolgy.  Sometimes we learn  lessons the hard way.

Quote

Zwolf666 Posted Today, 08:40 AM
Anyway, I've examined the patterns on the board and I've discovered that there is a pretty big bias around here... but, it's not against conservatives, and it's not against liberals. Nope. The bias around here is against people with a "Z" in their initials.

Hmmm bias because you have a "Z" in your initials.  So,  that could be my problem with all the interesting conversations I've encountered,  considering my last name starts with a "Z".      Oh well...Just has made me more selective with my posts.

RuReddy

[Bad Wolf]

LOL Z...

And Kevin, thank you for the clarification.

My apologies for being a bit cantankerous last night.

Lil

[HubcapDave]

"zwolf" said:

I know the "milking a male horse" joke sounds pretty PG when you read it in a transcript, but it's a lot worse in the video, because Laura does this "jerking off" hand gesture while she's saying it, and it's pretty obscene!

(Okay, she doesn't really do that, but the thread has drifted so far that I figure I may as well be obnoxious and amuse somebody, if only myself.  )

Well, that's what the hand gesture you mention is for, amusing yourself!

Edited by HubcapDave, 06 May 2005 - 12:06 PM.

[offworlder]

the Admin has spoken, and you know what I said in that post no one read about mods and admins ......... but _before_ I got the chance to chime in??

I just want to add one thing:
I delayed participating because I was trying to figure out what this first post or thread was all about, and I probably still miss the point, but I'll guess and say that to me it's off the mark -

for one thing, the NYTimes is not 'the media' (don't we all know THAT by now?); and for another, to say that 'the media' is hypocrytical this week, or 'the media' says one thing then another ... there are five thousand newspapers in our country (or whatever that number is) and almost that many tv news/opinion 'fair and trying to be balanced' stations and 'hosts' ... and heck even the UK has hundreds now .... and some say some things and others say other things .... so I think it's a moot point to try to say that 'the media' says .... anything ....

and even if some media report what is said in the press association shindigs, which is their want, I mean: c'mon! .... Laura can still say what SHE has Without studying any compare/contrast like the media seem to think is Their mission; what does SHE care what Mrs Kerry said when She, Laura, is doing her bit with her own husband in the association dinner??

My say: over (and mine was from a not-Bushie milkcrate) .... Kevin say: cool, chill, play nice nice .... Peace, ten-four (does any living soul even remember that anymore?!) .... and out

[Nonny]

Zwolf666, on May 6 2005, 05:40 AM, said:

Anyway, regarding the in-fighting over Laura's routine, that's one of the dangers of strongly allying one's political party with religion.  It's tough to get elected without doing that, but it's almost impossible to maintain harmony if you do, because one thing religions are really, really good at is creating schisms.  Any variation from complete uniformity will result in all kinds of sects and violence.  That's why the South is jam-packed with churches, and most of 'em are Baptist.  They keep breaking off and splintering so they can snipe at each other, 'cuz one says dancing is sinful and the other one doesn't, etc.   It's pretty funny from my bring-'em-all-down standpoint, but probably kinda sad from theirs.  There'll likely be big problems down the road from that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point.

HubcapDave, on May 6 2005, 09:05 AM, said:

"zwolf" said:

I know the "milking a male horse" joke sounds pretty PG when you read it in a transcript, but it's a lot worse in the video, because Laura does this "jerking off" hand gesture while she's saying it, and it's pretty obscene!

(Okay, she doesn't really do that, but the thread has drifted so far that I figure I may as well be obnoxious and amuse somebody, if only myself.  )

Well, that's what the hand gesture you mention is for, amusing yourself!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    

Nonny

[Nonny]

Wo!  I wonder if anybody else is getting from all this that now we know which parent Jenna gets it from.    

Nonny