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#21 Anastashia

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:06 PM

sierraleone, on May 7 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

Zwolf666, on May 7 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

Quote

You know Zwolf I gotta take offense at your last statment there. Just because people agree with their church's stand on things doesn't mean they have any less value as people.

******* I'm very sorry if you must take offense, but that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  If people are so small-minded that they have to remove from their midst anyone who doesn't completely conform or deviate from their norm, then, to me, they are worthless.  I wouldn't have ‘em with me on a bet, because such people are a liability, not an asset.  I am not completely egalitarian.  People are not "worth" something - in my eyes -  just because they're a warm body who showed up.  A person's worth is in what they bring to the table - be that intelligence, skill, or, lacking that, simply good will.  These people seem to have none of the above. We're talking about a church - it deals with religion or morality. People who agree with that church's expulsion of people based on political beliefs are overstepping their bounds and aggressively wrapping themselves in idiocy.  So, sorry, but I consider such people of very little worth.   Political ideology is no indicator of a person's morality, their religion, or any other such thing.  Not only can you belong to a political party and disagree with many of its tenets, but you should, because total conformity would get in the way of independent thought. So, sorry we disagree, but that's how I see it.  


Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Emphasis mine.... Thats how I feel.... and funny, if you switch "political" and "religion" I feel the same way :hehe:
There are many people who are part of a religion and are not represenative of their religions tenets much, or at all.... some of them are great people, some of them horrible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Except sierraleone what Zwolf said was that anyone who remained in that congregation "ain't gonna be no prize". I can't help but take offense at that generalization. It's exactly the same thing he seems to be accusing them of.

Edited by Anastashia, 07 May 2005 - 12:08 PM.

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#22 Spectacles

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:08 PM

Double post. Sorry.

Edited by Spectacles, 07 May 2005 - 12:11 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:09 PM

It looks as though this church's tax-exempt status could be legally challenged:

http://www.irs.gov/c...=120703,00.html

Quote

Political Campaign Activity

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501©(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.  Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity.  Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise tax. 
Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances.  For example, certain voter education activities (including the presentation of public forums and the publication of voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity.

In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not constitute prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.  On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that: (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or © have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

Individual Activity by Organization Leaders

The political campaign activity prohibition is not intended to restrict free expression on political matters by leaders of organizations speaking for themselves, as individuals.  Nor are leaders prohibited from speaking about important issues of public policy.  However, for their organizations to remain tax-exempt under section 501©(3), leaders cannot make partisan comments in official organization publications or at official functions.

To avoid potential attribution of their comments outside of organization functions and publications, organization leaders who speak or write in their individual capacity are encouraged to clearly indicate that their comments are personal and not intended to represent the views of the organization.

This preacher went too far, and, apparently many in his congregation think so, too, since quite a few left the church over this. And I bet not all were Democrats.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#24 waterpanther

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:13 PM

I have to say I don't think anyone who can't tell the difference between church membership and political affiliation is much of a prize, either.  That way theocracy lies, and I'll none of it.
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#25 sierraleone

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:15 PM

Anastashia, on May 7 2005, 01:06 PM, said:

sierraleone, on May 7 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

Zwolf666, on May 7 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

Quote

You know Zwolf I gotta take offense at your last statment there. Just because people agree with their church's stand on things doesn't mean they have any less value as people.

******* I'm very sorry if you must take offense, but that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  If people are so small-minded that they have to remove from their midst anyone who doesn't completely conform or deviate from their norm, then, to me, they are worthless.  I wouldn't have ‘em with me on a bet, because such people are a liability, not an asset.  I am not completely egalitarian.  People are not "worth" something - in my eyes -  just because they're a warm body who showed up.  A person's worth is in what they bring to the table - be that intelligence, skill, or, lacking that, simply good will.  These people seem to have none of the above. We're talking about a church - it deals with religion or morality. People who agree with that church's expulsion of people based on political beliefs are overstepping their bounds and aggressively wrapping themselves in idiocy.  So, sorry, but I consider such people of very little worth.   Political ideology is no indicator of a person's morality, their religion, or any other such thing.  Not only can you belong to a political party and disagree with many of its tenets, but you should, because total conformity would get in the way of independent thought. So, sorry we disagree, but that's how I see it.  


Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Emphasis mine.... Thats how I feel.... and funny, if you switch "political" and "religion" I feel the same way :hehe:
There are many people who are part of a religion and are not represenative of their religions tenets much, or at all.... some of them are great people, some of them horrible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Except sierraleone what Zwolf said was that anyone who remained in that congregation "ain't gonna be no prize". I can't help but take offense at that generalization. It's exactly the same thing he seems to be accusing them of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


True, I was saying I agreed w/ the bolded part. Though, I remember reading that the congregation *cheered* when this happened. They may otherwise be great people, but they had a lack of judgement, IMHO, if they cheered when the Pastor made his ultimatum during his sermon(?).
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#26 Zwolf

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:19 PM

Quote

Serrialeone sez: Emphasis mine.... Thats how I feel.... and funny, if you switch "political" and "religion" I feel the same way hehe.gif
There are many people who are part of a religion and are not represenative of their religions tenets much, or at all.... some of them are great people, some of them horrible.

******** I agree completely.  Some of the nicest, coolest people I know are religious, and some of the absolutely worst, most hateful people I know are religious.  And some of the coolest people I know have no religion at all... and although I've only met one person who wasn't religious (it's very, very hard to find them around here) and was a lousy human being, he was a very lousy human being, so atheism isn't an indicator of morality, either.  


Quote

Anastasia sez: Except sierraleone what Zwolf said was that anyone who remained in that congregation "ain't any prize". I can't help but take offense at that generalization. It's exactly the same thing he seems to be accusing them of.

******** Well, there may be a few people left in there who don't support what the minister did but lack the temerity to walk out... and those have my sympathy, and I hope they can do something to turn things around.  The people who applauded the minister, though, are, ummm, somewhere around the level of "crap" in my personal heirarchy of things-to-respect.  Like I said, sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.  If I had a church, it wouldn't be that one.   We have a local Baptist church that's since splintered off into a dozen or so other Baptist factions, but at one point they had a black couple come into the church one morning.   After services, the minister quietly took them aside and asked them not to come back... because they were black.  A friend of mine who went to that church heard about it and he raised some hell about it.  Eventually he quit, partially because of that and partially because of other things they did that he considered closed-minded (trying to stop the local theater from showing Last Temptation of Christ, and trying to stop a "one of the characters admits he's gay" storyline from the For Better Or Worse comic strip from appearing in the local paper (it finally did because the Baptists got busted for stealing all the newspapers around town to censor it!).  So, I hope if anybody's left in this guy's church after his "purge," I hope they give him hell.

Cheers,

Zwolf

Edited by Zwolf666, 07 May 2005 - 12:20 PM.

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#27 Spectacles

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:22 PM

Again, not all of the church's members are pleased. If some cheered while others were being invited to hit the door, that seems to me particularly despicable and un-Christian.

From one of the links someone provided up there:

Quote

Chan Chandler, pastor of East Waynesville, had been exhorting his congregation since October to support his political views or leave the church, said Selma Morris, a 30-year member of the church.

“He preached a sermon on abortion and homosexuality, then said if anyone there was planning on voting for John Kerry, they should leave,” she said. “That’s the first time I’ve ever heard something like that. Ministers are supposed to bring people in.”

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#28 sierraleone

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:23 PM

^ ZWolf I gave those who cheered some leeway.... some of them it might have just been a lack of judgement (or none at all ;) ) and were just doing what everyone else was doing.... which isn't neccessarily an indicator of a good person either even if they disagree w/ the actions ;) but it might have been, whats it called? "Group thing" for some of them, just doing it because everyone else ways. Sort of how everyones laughing, a person doesn't know why, but they start laughing to not stick out like a sore thumb... of course they might have been afraid if they didn't clap, they'd be excommunicated  :nervousninja:

Edited by sierraleone, 07 May 2005 - 12:24 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#29 Spectacles

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:29 PM

If this is true, the guy's a nut, pure and simple:

http://www.14wfie.co...26&nav=3w6oZYfo

Quote

One former church member says Chandler told some of the members that if they didn't support George Bush, they needed to resign their positions and get out of the church, or go to the altar, repent and agree to vote for Bush.

A former church treasurer says she's at church to worship God and not the preacher.

If I attended a church where a Kerry-supporting minister did that, I'd be out that door so fast the hymnals would flutter in my breeze.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#30 sierraleone

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:31 PM

^ If I attended a church where *any* politician-supporting minister did that, I'd be out of there.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#31 sierraleone

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:35 PM

Hey Zwolf, how do you feel about those asleep during the sermon? ;)

(no offence meant to Church-attending people, but if you haven't ever heard of jokes about people falling asleep during sermons, I don't know where you have been your whole life ;) )
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:09 AM

Looks like this church just might be paying taxes before too long.

Quote

The North Carolina Democratic Party has issued a statement about the Church's actions. Chair Jerry Meek says, "One of the Bible's most repeated commands is to love your neighbor. If these reports are true, the minister is not only acting extremely inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but he is also potentially breaking the laws and treatening the Church's 501 non-profit status."

Here's the link: http://wlos.com/news/news.shtml#story1
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#33 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 02:50 AM

Personally I'd like to see their 501 status yanked retroactively to the founding of the church and the total tax burden placed on the pastor - let him PAY for his arrogance and, IMHO, evil. :devil:
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#34 G1223

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:16 AM

And eat the meat off their bones,Suck the marrow out of their bones. Do not forget to deficate on the bones. Make sure you get all the vengence for their action and harm they did you.

The reality is this might get his 501 status investigated but I doubt it . I think it best for the two groups to move along with their lives.
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#35 waterpanther

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:32 AM

Certainly a Republican-run IRS will be reluctant to investigate it, seeing that the GOP is the direct beneficiary of the pastor's policies.  From a political standpoint, that probably does the Dems more good than harm, though, especially with DeLay's corruption to the fore.  

From the point of view of simple justice--never mind their bones.  Just tax their property and income at its proper value, and require members to pay income tax on their tithes as from last year.  That's neither more nor less than is required from any other politcal PAC.
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#36 Nonny

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:43 AM

G1223, on May 8 2005, 08:16 AM, said:

And eat the meat off their bones,Suck the marrow out of their bones. Do not forget to deficate on the bones. Make sure you get all the vengence for their action and harm they did you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No no, yanking his 501 will do fine.   :eek2:  :eek2:  :eek2:

G1223, on May 8 2005, 08:16 AM, said:

The reality is this might get his 501 status investigated but I doubt it . I think it best for the two groups to move along with their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um, do you feel this way about all lawbreakers?  :angel:  :devil:  

Nonny
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#37 G1223

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:50 AM

Has he been charged? Has he been convicted? So I will let the legal system charge him. I will let it bring him to trial. But I will wait till he's charged to call him a lawbreaker I will wait till he's convicted to call him a criminal.

Silly thing call due process.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#38 Nonny

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 12:03 PM

G1223, on May 8 2005, 08:50 AM, said:

Has he been charged? Has he been convicted? So I will let the legal system charge him. I will let it bring him to trial. But I will wait till he's charged to call him a lawbreaker I will wait till he's convicted to call him a criminal.

Silly thing call due process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silly thing called language.  'Lawbreaker' is a word that denotes "one that breaks the law" so all you have to know about someone to call him a lawbreaker is that he has broken a law.  'Criminal' denotes "one that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime."  NB: "committed or been legally convicted" in that definition.  That means that I can choose to call a lawbreaker a criminal, and you can choose not to.  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#39 waterpanther

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 12:06 PM

So what about all those unconvicted, uncharged non-lawbreakers down in Gitmo, G?  Will you give them the same leeway?
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#40 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 03:58 PM

G1223, on May 8 2005, 11:16 AM, said:

And eat the meat off their bones,Suck the marrow out of their bones. Do not forget to deficate on the bones. Make sure you get all the vengence for their action and harm they did you.

Nah, I'll be happy when they revoke the 501 and force the pastor to pay taxes...

Quote

The reality is this might get his 501 status investigated but I doubt it . I think it best for the two groups to move along with their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I wonder if you would feel the same way if the pastor was excommunicating, and discriminating, against republicans? Would you then say both groups should go their way...even if the pastor was saying if you don't vote for Kerry you're evil and need to repent or resign?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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