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Newsweek Lied, People Died

Media Newsweek Afghanistan Guantánamo Bay Koran

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#41 G1223

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 02:26 AM

Ogami, on May 20 2005, 07:09 AM, said:

The "Fake but true" defense, as last seen on behalf of Dan Rather, Mary Mapes, and CBS News.

But it beats actually working. And you get to move your politcal agenda along with printing lies. Why wouldn't the liberal media not like that? They are not subject to review except by themselves and since when does the fox ever turn himself in for being in the henhouse?
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#42 Spectacles

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 08:12 AM

Quote

Ogami: Newsweek's clear goal was to attack Bush and damage the U.S. military, now Newsweek's defenders have followed suit.

So has Brooks switched sides?  :eek4:

Quote

Conservative columnist David Brooks, as quoted above by Zack: "Many of my friends on the right have decided that the Newsweek episode exposes the rotten core of the liberal media. Dennis Prager, who is intelligent 99 percent of the time, writes, "Newsweek is directly responsible for the deaths of innocents and for damaging America." Countless conservatives say the folks at Newsweek were quick to believe the atrocity tales because they share the left-wing, post-Vietnam mentality. On his influential blog, Austin Bay writes that the coastal media "presume the worst about the U.S. military - always make that presumption."

Excuse me, guys, but this is craziness. I used to write for Newsweek. I know Mike Isikoff and the editors. And I know about liberals in the media. The people who run Newsweek are not a bunch of Noam Chomskys with laptops. Not even close. Whatever might have been the cause of their mistakes, liberalism had nothing to do with it."

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#43 G1223

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 11:33 AM

I truely do not know Spectacles. I do know that Newspeak made up a story. I know that the way the lie of the Koran flushing is being taken this way. "This story is not true but it is based on truth."

What we are seeing is the liberal media trying to fall all over itself to protect a story that is not true. When I went to school you were not suppose to use lies to support a news story. I guess that under the newer liberal method of teaching lying is acceptable as long as it's aimed at conservatives.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
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TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

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#44 Guldorak

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 11:55 AM

Ogami, on May 20 2005, 04:09 AM, said:

Guldorak wrote:

Bottom line is weather or not that particular incident occurred. There are numerous other sources that unfortunately confirm that the Koran was/is being treated in an abysmal manner in other to distressed Islamic prisonners.

The "Fake but true" defense, as last seen on behalf of Dan Rather, Mary Mapes, and CBS News.

When American journalists substitute facts for what they "know just must be true" about Bush and our military, they are no longer journalists. You can't create news just to fit preconceived notions, yet that is precisely what Newsweek's defenders have argued in the press.

I can just imagine the reaction had FoxNews been the one running fabricated news stories. But FoxNews has higher standards of fairness and accuracy than CBS News or Newsweek, don't they? That's got to suck for the "Faux News" bashers. (chuckle)

-Ogami

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I think I made it pretty clear that inaccurate reporting is not acceptable period. When errors are made they need to be corrected and amended which is what Newsweek did in this case.

The fact of the matter is that there have been numerous news story by other news outlets citing the desacration of the Koran. The Newsweek example might not of happen but it doesn't impact the truth of similar stories reported by other sources.
These are two distinct matters.

Stating that Fox has a better standard of fairness and accuracy than most other media outlets  just shows how your preconcieve idealogy blinds you to reality.  A review of the Media Matters web site yields tons of inaccuarcies on Fox which as far as I know has yet to be retracted or acknowledge for that matter.
I suspect that your new found interest for the truth in reporting is limited to a narrow scope.

Since you want facts you might want to check the latest "torture" news from the NY Times.

NY Times

#45 MuseZack

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 11:59 AM

G1223, on May 20 2005, 04:33 PM, said:

I truely do not know Spectacles. I do know that Newspeak made up a story. I know that the way the lie of the Koran flushing is being taken this way. "This story is not true but it is based on truth."

What we are seeing is the liberal media trying to fall all over itself to protect a story that is not true. When I went to school you were not suppose to use lies to support a news story. I guess that under the newer liberal method of teaching lying is acceptable as long as it's aimed at conservatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


G, have you been actually reading the thread?  Because it appears from what you're writing that you haven't.  So here's a helpful recap:

1:  The report has not been shown to be untrue.  One of the story's sources who said he saw the Koran desecration (which they had an eyewitness confirmation of) described in a specific military report later backed down and said he couldn't remember which report it appeared in.  That's all.  

2:  The central allegations contained in the report aren't new, but have been reported by multiple sources.

3: The writer who reported it is a longtime friend of the conservative media establishment, and various right wingers have vouched for him.  

4:  The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the commanding general went on record saying the riots weren't caused by the report.  Yet seemingly, some people here would rather believe the "liberal media" than the American military!

So just because you "know" something doesn't actually make it true.  

And lost in the hysterical chest-beating over one story in a weekly newsmagazine is the larger issue of why people in Afghanistan and Pakistan are so willing to believe the worst about what happens to muslims in American prisons.   It couldn't have anything to do with cases like this, could it?

"The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. . . .
At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. . . .

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time."

http://www.nytimes.c...artner=homepage

That's from a 2,000 page Army report on prisoner abuse, torture, and yes, murder, at Bagram air base in Afghanistan-- a place a lot closer on the map to Jalalabad and Peshawar than Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.  But by all means, feel free to keep believing that one story in Newsweek magazine is the real reason why large numbers of people are ready to believe the worst about American treatment  of muslims.
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#46 Ogami

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:05 PM

Spectacles wrote:

So has Brooks switched sides?

I'm just expecting journalism out of journalists, Spectacles.
Here's that Houghton Mifflin definition again:

Quote

jour·nal·ism    (jûrn-lzm) KEY 
NOUN:

2. The style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation.

Most of the journalists in the Mainstream Press are from or have been trained by the Vietnam generation of journalists. The notion of the U.S. military (and by extension the current administration) as the focus of evil in the modern world is deeply rooted with these people. Therefore, when they express a natural inclination to believe the worst about the American military, there's no need for fact checking.

For a brief time, the Mainstream Press had to actually report the facts on the war in Iraq. Witness the spitting hatred for those "embedded journalists" that still lingers to this day. But with Abu Ghraib, it was like the light of salvation descended on the National Press Corps. Now they could report the military the way they wanted, as the most evil instrument in the world today.

The American press got very good at hiding their true feelings about the American military, and our soldiers. But occasionally a story like this one from Newsweek will show them for what they truly are. Active proponents of America's enemies. Because if America and all her endeavors are intrinsically evil (basic premise of the Vietnam-generation of journalism), then any enemy of America must be lauded and celebrated as Victims of America.

So the prisoners in Gitmo are victims, Saddam Hussein is a victim, the Taliban is a victim, the Iraq insurgants (oops, heroic freedom fighters of ultimate nobility) are victims. Practically the only people who aren't considered victims are the dead of 9/11, because as certain academics reminded us, America must have deserved that and had it coming for our worldwide oppression.

That's the attitude the editorial staff at rags like Newsweek start each day with. And it illustrates why they have blinders on when publishing a story like this that any sane person would know would inflame and outrage the muslim world.

-Ogami

#47 G1223

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:07 PM

Ogami it's Newspeak not Newsweek. The second one makes it sound like they tell the truth.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#48 Ogami

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:11 PM

Guldorak wrote:

Stating that Fox has a better standard of fairness and accuracy than most other media outlets just shows how your preconcieve idealogy blinds you to reality

The reality is that the New York Times falsified news stories under Howell Raines and Jayson Blair. The reality is that Dan Rather ran with a story that had been faxed to CBS News from a Texas Kinko's, because they "just knew" it must be true. The reality is that Newsweek is actively pining for the defeat of America or at least damage to our reputation and prestige, and is willing to falsify the news to accomplish that ultra-partisan goal.

Yet no one can cite a single instance of FoxNews exhibiting a bias in their news reporting. (And no, telling us that commentators like Bill O'Reilly exhibit a bias won't cut it. O'Reilly at least is honest about the biases he brings to the table. Unlike many of his liberal counterparts in the rest of the press.)

-Ogami

Edited by Ogami, 20 May 2005 - 12:12 PM.


#49 Ogami

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:13 PM

MuseZack wrote:

So just because you "know" something doesn't actually make it true.

Unless you work at Newsweek or CBS News. (Or the New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, Time, FAIR.org, MOVEON.org, etc.)

-Ogami

#50 eloisel

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 01:10 AM

I'm curious.  How big must a toilet be to actually flush a Koran down the thing?

Also, if 1.2 billion Muslims were enraged to riot over the disrespecting of their holy book by non-believers in their religion, then why aren't 1.2 billion Muslims rioting over this incident?

Also reported on the news is that it is in the Terrorist's Handbook that prisoners should claim their Korans are being disrespected.  Have yet to find such a handbook to confirm.  Has anyone seen the Handbook?

#51 tennyson

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 01:26 AM

Well, the English commentary on the Quran isn't that large, it could fit into my jacket pocket and has before. (Any Quran written in anything but the original Arabic is regarded by most Muslims as simply a commentary on the Quran and not the actual work due to translation.) It's really not that large of a book unless you want to start getting fancy with it and making leatherbound and ecorated versions. Those can get pretty large.
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#52 Ogami

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 01:31 AM

Eloisel asked:

I'm curious. How big must a toilet be to actually flush a Koran down the thing?

Well I read an English translation, it was a small paperback and even that would have been impossible to flush.

Also, if 1.2 billion Muslims were enraged to riot over the disrespecting of their holy book by non-believers in their religion, then why aren't 1.2 billion Muslims rioting over this incident?

I would assume most of them have some sense. In the western world, religious iconography is desecrated all the time, but here it's called great art.

-Ogami

#53 Chipper

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 03:39 PM

My only feeling (and this is after reading today's Newsweek, which features many very angry letters) is that while the reporting was irresponsible, it is definitely not the article that is solely to blame for what is happening right now, and it never will be.  I'm sure that the Fallujah attacks and such were Newsweek's fault as well?  No, of course not.  But now that the Pentagon and many others are using Newsweek as a scapegoat for the many problems, of course reactions will be brutal (and some just seem over the top to me).  The worst part is that every person seems to feel that NW villified every soldier, and that one for all mentality just strikes me as wrong.

And at least NW had the right of mind to apologize and retract the article, and continue to follow up on it, which is more than I can say for an administration that couldn't admit it made mistakes during election time, and still can't, even though it knows that the reasons we went to Iraq were based on false accusations.

But that's just me.

Edited by Chipper, 23 May 2005 - 03:41 PM.

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#54 Kevin Street

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:16 PM

I wonder why those Muslim crowds never get angry when terrorist groups corrupt Islam into a message of hatred, instead of a message of peace. Isn't that desecration too?

#55 Chipper

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:22 PM

Good question, indeed.  I would really not want to believe for a second that Osama bin Laden's message is one that many Muslims embrace, but why are they so quiet about it?  Silence isn't golden here.
"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#56 G1223

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:42 PM

Partly they have state controlled media. Second they have their major network acting as a propaganda network. And they also have a biased western media working for a higher bodycount.

Why should we expect Newspeak to behave themselves. They are their parent catbox liner of a paper have shown that See BS is not the only liberal organization hiding itself as a news outlet.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#57 Kevin Street

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:47 PM

:o

Actually, I think it has more to do with human nature. Many Islamic people (like people everywhere) are more sensitive to external threats than internal contradiction. Blaming the enemy outside is much easier and more satisfying than blaming one's fellow ideological travellers.

#58 G1223

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 06:02 PM

And the spindoctoring by propaganda networks has nothing to do with it.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#59 Delvo

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 06:37 PM

Kevin Street, on May 23 2005, 05:16 PM, said:

I wonder why those Muslim crowds never get angry when terrorist groups corrupt Islam into a message of hatred, instead of a message of peace. Isn't that desecration too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chipper, on May 23 2005, 05:22 PM, said:

Good question, indeed.  I would really not want to believe for a second that Osama bin Laden's message is one that many Muslims embrace, but why are they so quiet about it?  Silence isn't golden here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet, no matter how simple and obvious it is, the clear and straightforward answer is the one thing everyone's afraid to say, or even to admit having ever thought of: that this really is the true nature of Islam.

#60 QueenTiye

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 07:23 PM

And, of course, thats utterly false.

Islam's true nature is NOT terroristic, though Islam is going through a "Dark Ages" right now. There have certainly been voices speaking up against Islamic extremism, both here AND there.  They don't get quite as much press, and currently they get killed for having opinions contrary to the will of those in power.

Currently, many Muslims feel that apostasy is the cause of Islam's troubles, and are afraid to speak out against the fundamentalist tide that has taken over many parts of the faith in many parts of the world.  Delvo, given your rather excellent analysis in another thread of the perception of some muslims that they are being oppressed, I'm surprised that you don't associate that sense of being oppressed by enemies bigger than they are actually able to fight with the current wave of insanity sweeping the Faith.  

And it is, of course, in the context of a people who feel oppressed, who feel like they are being punished by God when they are "good" while the "wicked" US (from their pov) triumphs, or the wicked "Israel" triumhs, that a story like this can become amplified beyond all recognition.  And indeed - it is a story like this that makes it seem as though indeed this is a Jihad that ALL MUSLIMS must support, instead of being something selectively waged against the wicked muslim factions.

QT

Editing to correct a very grevious error! :(

Edited by QueenTiye, 23 May 2005 - 10:18 PM.

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