Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

the long view


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 13 April 2003 - 10:59 PM

When i was in Greece, in porto Carras, just north of Thessaloniki a good few years back, i had the oppertunity to sit, with my feet up on the balcony of my hotel room, watching the sun set over the mountains.

I recently found my old pictures fromt hat vacation and was reminded. Those mountains have been around for some 60,000 years (give or take a century or two) and i found myself wondering, in the long run, does any of it matter.

Did the spartans wonder about how history would judge them, or the babylonians, or the ancient egyptians, and how would they have felt about how we do remember and judge them and their actions

In another 5000 years, when the names Bush, Blair and Saddam have all but been forgotten, when the USA and Iraq will be nothing more than insignifigant footnotes in a history book, and the gulf war, vietnam and the falklands will be considered minor skirmishes at best, will the world care.

The mountains will still be there, things will happen much as they do now, and everyone will be overcome with the importance of the moment, of the minutiea of their own lives, and of those around them.

and five thousand years after that, when nothing done today is even remembered by anyone, people will probably be much the same as they are now, or were 5,000 years ago.

and still the mountains will be here.

ultimately, as important as Iraq, Osama Bin Laden and all that may seem now, in the long run, does any of it matter?

I can only speak for myself, but in the long run, none of it matters.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#2 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 13 April 2003 - 11:19 PM

Here I disagree.  

History is well ultimately the stuffy of past events placed in the context of when they occurred.  Really though history can very accurately have the study of irony.  Looking at the situation now you may look at it and say 5,000 years from now this will mean nothing.  

The use of fire by Homo erectus probably didn’t seem like a big deal then except it made that meat taste a lot better.  Then how about you go back 10,000 years and you have the minor sneaking in of horticulture.  The agricultural revolution rather than being some great shebang seems to have just crept in and rooted itself in over time.  Now fast forward to the present and you indeed have two things that had implications far beyond what anyone could have guessed then.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#3 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 14 April 2003 - 03:01 AM

If you look long enough, of course nothing matters.

But what you look at, and what you live, are not the same thing, by FAR.

You live now. It matters now. Leave history's judgements for history and enjoy the present-- and tomorrow.

Don't worry about how history will judge you; judge history for yourself and go out to make it better.

The names may not matter, the battles may be forgotten, the glory and hope and love and death will only ever matter to those who were there.

But to admit defeat just because it's too big undermines those who are even smaller than you and haven't given up.

Those mountains you were looking at-- you know, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, all lived within a few hundred miles of those mountains. And yet the words they wrote have changed the course of history.

On the map of the world, Greece is a tiny little spot. Athens, even smaller. Yet those three men changed the schools of thought that were responsible for so much of the world.

Taking it even further, the words of a single man --Muhammad, for instance, but also Jesus of Nazareth or even the Buddha-- have all made major impacts on the world around them.

Whether or not it matters or not doesn't matter, if that makes any sense. All that remains to decide is what to do with the time we are given.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#4 Kahoutek

Kahoutek

    Space Otter

  • Islander
  • 139 posts

Posted 14 April 2003 - 07:36 AM

For those of us who live based on our faith, both the long and short view matter a great deal.

In my particular faith, the short view is quite important -- how I treat everybody shows how well I live my faith.   [I also include how I treat the planet, but I'll keep talking about people.]

Balanced against this is the long view ... if I only concern myself with the immediate situation and needs of people, I can hurt them in the long term.  As a teacher, this consideration is paramount.

Even without faith issues, the short term is important.  Otherwise, we can justify almost anything ... as long as it leads to some "higher purpose".  This, of course, assumes that the long term matters.

If a person believes that neither matters (short or long term), then I feel sorry for them; such a person would be prone to depression and discouragement, cynicism and bitterness.  A strong faith avoids this.

Kahoutek

#5 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 14 April 2003 - 10:15 AM

I admire the sentiment behind your post, Gode, but I can't really agree.

For each and every one of us, this life and this world is all we have, so it really does matter what happens to it. From the perspective of a mountain, all human life probably seems trivial, a dance of the mayflies like that Drom episode that shall not be named ( ;) ) - but for us, every sunrise is important, because we just don't have that many of them to enjoy. When our neighbors are hurting or hungry or crying, it hurts us too, because we don't have the imperviousness of rock. We're only human beings, and in the end our connections to each other are all we have, so it's important to live our lives the best way we can, and help others do the same.

We're cursed with human flesh, but that can be a blessing too. Imagine how lonely the mountains must be, standing immobile for millions of years, with no one to talk to and nothing to do except listen to the wind.

Community is our blessing, and our responsibility.
Per aspera ad astra

#6 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 12:24 PM

i never expect people to agree with me kevin  ;)

CJ,

But is anyone going to remember the context of the events today. No one that i know of claims to know the context of the first applications of fire or farming, all we can do is make so called educated guesses. Who's to say if we're right or wrong. So in the long run, the context was irrelivant, only that something of import happened.

hmm, Hawk, i hate it when people eloquently demolish my arguments. especially if they quote Tolkien at me while doing it,  :D
But to admit defeat just because it's too big undermines those who are even smaller than you and haven't given up.
who said anything about giving up, i'm just talking about living life with the full appreciation of how insignifigant a single person is. Even Socrates and Plato could have done nothing by themselves, it was the people who availed themselves of what they said that kept them alive in history.
and ultimately, given that history will judge who gets remembered, does anything you do matter, as you will never have any say in the long term results

i'm not sure that was structured properly, if your first though on this is huh? then i'll try and restructure it to make more sense

ah, but Kahoutek, in my view of faith, only the long term matters. The trivia of a single mortal life is inconsequential when compared to the grander sense of striving towards perfection. Any one life, when taken by itself is meaningless, it is the sum total of all of the lives, good, bad and ugly, that make up a person.

uhm, Kevin, i'm not sure what to say to this, but again, as a reincarnationis, i do believe that the core of the human spirit, is as ageless as that mountain, and it's only the mortal coil that concerns itself with the minutia of an individual lifetime.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#7 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 12:45 PM

Quote

hmm, Hawk, i hate it when people eloquently demolish my arguments. especially if they quote Tolkien at me while doing it

You're welcome. :cool:

Quote

But to admit defeat just because it's too big undermines those who are even smaller than you and haven't given up.
who said anything about giving up, i'm just talking about living life with the full appreciation of how insignifigant a single person is.

Then you've given up.

If you appreciate your insignificance, you surrender ambition and desire to the fact that none of it ultimately matters, and oh well. Nuts to that. Ambition, passion, desire-- who gives a flying f*ck if life means anything to someone else. Dictate your own significance. Claim victory in your heart and the universe will follow.

Or, as Winston Churchill once said, "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."

Quote

Even Socrates and Plato could have done nothing by themselves, it was the people who availed themselves of what they said that kept them alive in history.

So what? Captain Smith could have done nothing by himself, but the responsibility for the Titanic going down doesn't go to the guy at the helm at the time. It goes to him because he's the boss. Same works for praise as it does for blame. You can look at the Arabs who preserved their works, the crusaders who retrieved it, the monks who taught it, the guys who wrote responses to it, and so what?

Shakespeare didn't write his plays and go, "this is the sh*t, man, some day, kids in grade nine will have to, like, read this and dig it, else they fail. Kickass." He wrote it for entertainment. That it endures in the written form-- so what? Intention ends at action. Once the action is undertaken, how far it goes is beyond the control of those who sought to make it resonate --whether or not it resonates is not their place to decide.

Quote

and ultimately, given that history will judge who gets remembered, does anything you do matter, as you will never have any say in the long term results

sh*t, I hope nothing I do matters. I don't need to be judged by history. If I can't live my life right, by my lights, then who cares what history has to say on the matter? Who am I, that I should view myself so self-importantly as to allow history --all history-- to be my judge? I am my own judge, first and foremost. Anyone else's verdict is plainly immaterial. God and history can keep their judgements. I am my own worst enemy. And damn proud of it.

Quote

i'm not sure that was structured properly, if your first though on this is huh? then i'll try and restructure it to make more sense

I dig. No worries.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#8 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 12:57 PM

Quote

Then you've given up.

If you appreciate your insignificance, you surrender ambition and desire to the fact that none of it ultimately matters, and oh well. Nuts to that. Ambition, passion, desire-- who gives a flying f*ck if life means anything to someone else. Dictate your own significance. Claim victory in your heart and the universe will follow.

but therein lies my point. I am free because i realise that none of it matters. I can do anything i want, as long as i'm happy with it, because in the end, none of it matters.  

Does that make any sense to you?

Quote

If I can't live my life right, by my lights, then who cares what history has to say on the matter?

but that's my point, because i don't believe that anyone, let alone history, cares about anyone but a few individuals, i can live my life right, rather than worrying about everything i do.

you know, upon rereading this, i think i expressed myself badly, what i mean looks to be closer to what you wrote than what i wrote.

hmm

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#9 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 02:16 PM

You might not matter to people who live 5000 years from now, but, why would THEY matter to YOU?

#10 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 02:33 PM

I'm a reincarnationist, If i'm right, I'm going to be them.

Edited by Godeskian, 15 April 2003 - 02:33 PM.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#11 Shalamar

Shalamar

    Last Star to the Left and Straight on till Morning

  • Forever Missed
  • 17,644 posts

Posted 15 April 2003 - 03:03 PM

"No man is an island, no man stands alone, each mans joy is joy to me, each mans grief is my own"

>Tilek svi'khaf-spol t'vathu - tilek svi'sha'veh<.
The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own.

There are many who say were are all one, all interconnected through time and space, what each of us does reaches out and affects every one and every thing else, like rippes in a pond.  So each life, the actions, inactions, and death matters...

Just rambling again...


0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users