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Andromeda: Coda Q&A thread

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#261 Virgil Vox

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:49 PM

Again, what Slipfighter said. It's not like all of these changes would happen at once, nor would every episode be dark and depressing. Andromeda had a strong, loyal fan base to begin with, and I bet it would have grown over the years. And if not, it at least would have stayed at the same level.

I do believe that if Robert and co. had been allowed to do their vision, or at least some semblance of it, Andromeda could have been a classic sci fi show and not the butt of jokes.

The more I read and think about it, the more I wish we could have seen all this come to fruition.

I so hope someone makes a book about it. I'd like to see that probability wave.
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#262 Christopher

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:51 PM

Themis, on May 27 2005, 10:55 AM, said:

I still remember the "rock 'n' roll space adventure" promos.  There was a purpose and a mission - restoring the commonwealth - but the promos made it sound like they'd have their share of fun while they went about it, just as TOS did on their mission.  And Trance was a purple pixie and not a mystic Lucifer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, as Robert said, this would've been spread out over dozens of episodes, not crammed into 20 pages, so there would've been plenty of room for them to have fun.  Try summarizing, say, DS9 in 20 pages and there'd be no mention of "Little Green Men" or "Our Man Bashir" or "In the Cards" or "Trials and Tribble-ations."  Focus only on the key points of the arc and you'd give the impression of a relentlessly dark show with no fun, but that wouldn't be a correct impression.

As for Trance, the point was that she was both those things.  Who says a being of ultimate power has to be all serious and solemn and grandiose all the time?  That kind of posturing is for people who need to build themselves up in the eyes of others.  Someone who already has cosmic power doesn't need to bother -- so why not be frivolous?  Or look at it this way: from Trance's viewpoint, humans and other species would be short-lived, lower life forms that she regards with affection -- much the way we perceive our pets.  And aren't people generally sweet and playful toward their pets, even if they're quite serious at other times?


SeamusSaidPoit, on May 27 2005, 01:37 PM, said:

I found it interesting that what this means is that Lucifers-as-avatars aren't tied to a single star as in the Engles version, and as would be normally understood by saying they're avatars. We, or maybe just me, usually took the avatar idea as meaning that "Avatars are borne from the Stars" when really it's the Stars that are borne from (or created by) the Avatars...

I don't think the word "avatar" was ever used in Robert's version, except to refer to AI avatars like Rommie.  Applying it to Trance would've been an Engelism.

Quote

Now I'm kind of picturing the true nature of the Lucifers and the Abyss as strings and super strings, some kind of super-dimensional fundamental forces or something. Particles really. It's actually an idea I had when I was reading their origins in "Heaven"/Pre-Big-Bang, but it's starting to come together in my head now...

I have some more thought that probably can't really be answered because it's all about perspective, relating to the nature of the sentience of these fundamental forces...but I'll let it stew in my head for awhile...

The slipstream always did remind me very much of a neural network.  I always wondered if starships were literally travelling through the mind of the universe.

karra, on May 27 2005, 01:39 PM, said:

Quote

And probably all black holes are Kerr black holes.

No, there are a few other kinds. Schwarzfield, which are mostly stationary and don't rotate. Supermassives, which have hot gas jetting. Primoridals, which aren't made up of stars at all but matter left over from Early Universe. And Micros, which are made up of Planck Mass and fermions.

You're talking about theoretical types of black holes, I'm talking about what would really exist.  Yes, theoretically a Schwarzschild black hole is nonrotating, but in real-world, practical terms, it's vanishingly unlikely that any star from which a black hole formed would have zero rotation.  So it's more proper to think of the Schwarzschild model as a simplified, incomplete theoretical construct, with the Kerr model being the more realistic version, taking things into account that Schwarzschild overlooked.

As for supermassives, if they rotate then they're also Kerr BH's.  And again, it's virtually impossible that they wouldn't rotate, because the stars that collapse together to form them would undoubtedly have been orbiting around their common center of mass.  Also, any BH with an accretion disk and a magnetic field can have gas jets, regardless of its size.

As for primordials and micro or quantum black holes, those are both theoretical and not proven to exist.  And again, I'd think it likely that most of them would have some angular momentum, and thus would be Kerr BHs as well.  After all, subatomic particles have intrinsic angular momentum -- we call it "spin" -- so I'd think a quantum BH would as well, unless it were made of an even number of particles whose spins cancelled out.

Quote

And by moving, I mean moves from point a on one side of the galaxy to point b in another galaxy altogether. Like, one day it's in Gemini but the next time you check it's right next door.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The black hole itself would not do that.  Rather, a hypothetical traveller passing through the ring singularity, if said traveller could survive the tidal stresses, could be transported to another point in spacetime -- although that point might not be within our universe proper, but might be a separate continuum altogether.

Anastashia, on May 27 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

Quote

I'm so sorry you were given that ultimatum about Purple Trance. That actually sort of hits a mad nerve on me.  How dare they.

I saw this as possibly a cost issue. Either institute cost savings by deleting the necessity for expensive technology to make the tail work in a realistic manner or drop a character as a cost savings measure. Faced with that choice I think Robert went in the right direction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm not sure that works, because Trance's tail was blown off several episodes before "Ouroboros," and they still required changing her color and personality.  So it wasn't about the tail.  My understanding is that Purple Trance didn't "test well" with their focus groups.


Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on May 27 2005, 05:30 PM, said:

Christopher, on May 27 2005, 06:19 AM, said:

But how did Trance/the Lucifers arrange all that?  And how is it that a black hole, a tool of the Abyss, ends up fulfilling the Lucifers' goal of getting Dylan into the future?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Heck if I know.  They're tricky, those Lightbringers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But did you intend all along that Dylan's trip into the future was not an accident, even if you hadn't worked out the details of how it was done?

Or is it possible that Dylan getting trapped around Hephaistos was just an accident, but once it happened, the Lucifers realized that Dylan would make the perfect spearhead for their plans, and Trance just had to arrange for Beka and the rest to be the ones to retrieve him?  I think that's consistent with what was said in "Coda."

(Hmm, I'm wondering if the idea of Trance maneuvering Beka, Rev, Harper and Tyr to Hephaistos is compatible with what KRAD wrote in Destruction of Illusions.  Trance's role in that novel was pretty minimal, as I recall.)


Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on May 27 2005, 05:59 PM, said:

A basic layout of the 5 years.

1 Dylan starts his mission.  Ends with disovery the worldship is coming
2. Dylan forms his 50 world Commonwealth.
3. Ends with Tyr leaving to form his Empire.
4. Ends with Rev Bem becoming the leader of the Wayist and with the Empire and the Commonwealth going to war.
5.  Harper merges with CoP.  Final battle.  Endgame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Okay, cool.  That's the sort of outline I was hoping to see.


Just had a thought... wouldn't it be neat if there were a way to arrange for Laura Bertram and Gordon Michael Woolvett to do an audio recording of Coda?  With proper permission and compensation as spelled out in the legal disclaimers, of course.
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#263 NexusNine

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:55 PM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on May 27 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

And they took over Trance's body so fast because she wasn't technically alive to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

  

I guess this brings me to another question about Trance, then.  

Q: Is Trance, in her humanoid forum, an extension of her core sun yet a unique individual, kind of like Rommie is to the Andromeda A.I. Core, or is Trance one and the same with her sun.  In other words, if, for some odd reason, Trance's humanoid body were to be destroyed, could her sun produce another avatar that "is" the same Trance onboard the Andromeda, or would this avatar be a unique personality, not quite the same?  

Hope that makes sense. :blush: :cool:
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#264 The Tyrant

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 06:55 PM

Christopher, on May 27 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

Just had a thought... wouldn't it be neat if there were a way to arrange for Laura Bertram and Gordon Michael Woolvett to do an audio recording of Coda?  With proper permission and compensation as spelled out in the legal disclaimers, of course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Heh...I had a similar thought. After I read Coda, I wondered what it would take to get it made, even as a fan film...

Pay Robert for the script (first, obviously... :) )
Get Laura and Gordon for a 1-2 day shoot.
Thanks to various auctions, we already have access to Harper's dataport & Trance's tail...costuming wouldn't be much of a problem, and we could work up some purple makeup... ;)
Throw together a mock-up of the Obs deck window and a false space backing behind it....a couple key and spot lights for mood (and so we could see 'em..)...
2 cameras....could be done with 1 if needed, though. Shouldn't be hard to find good quality units for relatively little money...
Tap some EIers that are good with CG modelling for the final pull out of the ship and the jump to slipstream.

Shoot and edit. Rinse and repeat. :lol:

#265 entroki

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:03 PM

The space view should be digitally edited in unless you want it to look like ST: TOS ;) And there would have to be a lot more lights than that, even for a dark scene...

Ok, I'm getting a bit carried away ;) Anyway, that would be so sweet. What are the chances, though? :(
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#266 The Tyrant

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:05 PM

Well, yeah...I was generalizing, mostly. It would take much more than that small list, but not outside the means of a small group of filmmakers that really wanted to do it.... ;)

#267 Anastashia

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:17 PM

Of course there's the small matter of rights to the property and characters.
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#268 karra

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:20 PM

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on some of your science points, Christopher.


Robert: I don't know if this was asked, but is Hohne, in fact, dead? Or off in some other part of time?

#269 Mikoto

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:30 PM

Wow. That is so much more than I could have imagined.

But every question that has come to mind has been asked and mostly answered by the ppl of ExIsle.


But one point gives me immense satisfaction.


"It was always about Trance."

I may come up with some questions later but for now I'll just add my "Thank you for sharing this with us" to everybody else's.
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#270 tennyson

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:36 PM

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on some of your science points, Christopher. [QUOTE]

Why? there's nothing wrong with them that I'm aware of.
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#271 karra

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:55 PM

Quote

Why? there's nothing wrong with them that I'm aware of.

There's not. I just hold to different scientific theories than he does. Nothing wrong with that.

Plus, there's another category for science, and if I really should've posted my blackhole thing there.

Edited by karra, 27 May 2005 - 07:57 PM.


#272 Youkai

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 08:08 PM

I second the request on how the second season would have ended.  In this reality, it ended with 50 members signed, sealed and ratified, but I really doubt it would have been rushed that much.  How did Trance fit in?  I heard rumors that it would have ended with her being ostracized?

Edited by Youkai, 27 May 2005 - 08:09 PM.


#273 karra

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 08:10 PM

I am wondering, was Dylan the only one doing recruiting into the new Commonwealth, or did the worlds signed up go to neighboring worlds and say "Hey, there's this guy..."

#274 SeamusSaidPoit

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 08:13 PM

karra, on May 27 2005, 07:20 PM, said:

Robert: I don't know if this was asked, but is Hohne, in fact, dead? Or off in some other part of time?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Spoilers for S5
Spoiler: click to show/hide
In a S5 episode whose name escapes me at the moment, Hohne poppped out of the tesseract he fell into in Ouroborous. At the end of that episode he seemingly sacrifices himself.

Whether he's still alive as of that S5 ep, Robert can't really answer as he wasn't involved and hasn't seen it...

Unless of course you meant if in Robert's original/Coda plan Hohne would've stayed alive...then ignore everything I've said :p
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#275 karra

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 08:16 PM

Quote

Unless of course you meant if in Robert's original/Coda plan Hohne would've stayed alive...then ignore everything I've said 

I meant in the original plan.  :D  But, thank you!

#276 MegL

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 08:40 PM

enTranced, on May 27 2005, 08:27 AM, said:

MegL, on May 27 2005, 03:53 AM, said:

BTW, I do want to say that show you present in "Coda" should have brought in the Farscape viewers but in reality that wouldn't have happened because even by the start of Season 2, most hard core Farscape fans loathed Andromeda for reasons I'm sure you read yourself over on usenet and that situation still irks me on a core level, I'd like you to know. IMO, your version of Andromeda was as good IMNSHO as Farscape ever was! I found the fannish dislike of the show uncalled for both then and now (I'm talking about Roberts time on the show) but fandom lived down to it's reputation IMO :glare: .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you elaborate on this a little?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really, since IMO that would constitute thread jacking. This is a thread for Robert to discuss things in, not for me to talk about my problems with Farscape fans attitudeds. As well, I don't want to talk about this in another thread. I've tried to move on with my life and going back and dwelling over past fanish problems any more than I did in the original post is asking for trouble, for me, on a personal level.

However, I will say this - first, check out the early postings at alt.fan.farscape and the postings at SciFi's board from the time period involved (2000 to mid 2001, would be in that range, if I'm doing my math correctly), if the SciFi archives still exists. You might try looking at thread about Andromeda thta have MediaSavant posting in them. She was (and still is in my book) a well respected poster from the time who was always, consitantly anti-Andromeda . Unlike some, she was clear on her reasons but she always disliked the show consitantly and because of that she tended to get responses from other posters who agreed with her views (so you can usually find cluster discussions on early Andromeda if you read her threads).[BTW, I was usually OK with MediaSavants dissing of Andromeda - it was some of (many of, actually) the other posters I was seriously annoyed at. I'm only bringing her up because she's slightly easier to find when doing a google groups search than some of the others who's nicknames changed over the years.]

Second, I was active in Farscape fandom from Day One until mid way through S3. Interestingly, I never saw you posting back then at what I considered the most popular sites for Scapers, until almost the end of that time frame (and even then, I don't remember you posting all that much). So while you consider yourself a hardcore Farscape fan, you obviously didn't hang out in those places back in the late 90's that many others people who considered themselves to be hardcores Farscape fans did.

Which brings me back to a earlier statement I made. These are my opinions. They are not any better or worse than anyone elses. This is how I saw it at the time and while you may not agree with my opinions, you aren't going to be able to argue me out of them (but if you insist, take it to PM) :dontgetit:.

#277 Mr.Calgary

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:20 PM

Robert Hewitt Wolfe, on May 27 2005, 02:59 PM, said:

The point executive for Andromeda changed three times in my three years and the mandate for the show changed at least as often. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Themis, on May 27 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

Can you name the three point executives?  And did the third one last through season 5, or were there other changes?  For that matter, can you define "point executive"?

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you also expand a bit on what the three mandates were?  :oh:
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(1)  Yes. Bad Trance! Wicked, Evil Trance!

(2)  Stayed purple.   (3)  Bad, bad Trance!

(4)  Love and Blowing Things Up continue forever. The universe wins

#278 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:49 PM

FendyAgain, on May 27 2005, 03:20 PM, said:

Who came up with the idea of a 'force lance'?  It always seemed too overtly phalic and destined to be the butt of jokes to have been as serious a part of the series it actually was.    (Not that it didn't actually work, this was just my initial impresion and something I've always wondered in the back of my mind).  Was it originally intended this way?  (Was it added to the show for just this possible effect?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I came up with it with my wife, of all people, during a long drive up to the Bay Area.  Cool in concept, I think, but the execution was a little more... suggestive than what we'd had in mind.

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#279 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:54 PM

Themis, on May 27 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

Can you name the three point executives?  And did the third one last through season 5, or were there other changes?  For that matter, can you define "point executive"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Karen Corbin (Development through ep 18 or so) with Seth Howard as her aide
Seth Howard (only an interim appointment after Karen's departure, 19-22)
Phillip Segal (23 until I got fired and a few years thereafter I think) with Seth as his aide again

Plus around episode 10 (AGNO was her first show) Karen Wookey from Fireworks showed up with executive power to revamp the look of the show and have further creative supervisory powrs.

Oh, and Dick Askin of Tribune and Adam Haight of Fireworks had authority over the point people.  And Dick answered to his bosses at Tribune in Chicago and Adam to Jay Firestein, his boss at Fireworks, who was then responsible to CanWest/Global in Toronto.

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#280 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 09:57 PM

Christopher, on May 27 2005, 03:51 PM, said:

I'm not sure that works, because Trance's tail was blown off several episodes before "Ouroboros," and they still required changing her color and personality.  So it wasn't about the tail.  My understanding is that Purple Trance didn't "test well" with their focus groups.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, that's more on target.  Philip Segal and the folks at Tribune wanted to "shake things up" by killing a character (preferably) or by majorly changing one (as a compromise).  The character they most wanted changed was Trance who they wanted to make more... errr... I won't use the word they used.  I'll say "sexually intriguing."

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There's a peacefulness and a rage inside us all."
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