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Republican/Democrat justification/degeneration

OT Partsianship

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#21 Ogami

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:05 PM

Spectacles wrote:

Maybe we just all need to set the most obvious partisans on ignore. If they find their bait doesn't work and no one plays "my team vs. your team" with them, then maybe they'll go away.

So everyone should set you for ignore?

-Ogami

#22 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:06 PM

Spectacles, on Jun 1 2005, 01:03 PM, said:

Quote

sierraleone: some people are going to partisan bicker no matter what you do, even if you're calm. On occasion people don't like to listen. I've enter a thread that had gotten partisan before, made a calm rational respond without mention party or conservative or liberal, and gotten angry responses as if I was (not that they accused me of it, but it seems some were so embroiledin their parisan debate that anyone who said different from them was automatically "them")

Yep. I know exactly what you mean. ;)

Maybe we just all need to set the most obvious partisans on ignore. If they find their bait doesn't work and no one plays "my team vs. your team" with them, then maybe they'll go away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Some of them do say something note worthy... of course each person would have decide is it worth while to them. I like the idea of people who want real discussion just saying "Off topic" or "back to the topic at hand" and/or if they want, painting some quotes red or blue (without actually responding to them though, other than "off topic"
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#23 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:07 PM

Partisanship is like racism: it's useful to the Powers That Be because it keeps everyone too busy bickering about their "differences" to ever understand that they're all trying to screw us.  And there are those - little brainwashed footsoldiers - who can't stand it if any atmosphere of compromise is ever reached between parties.  They don't want discussions - they want "us vs. them," because anything else scares them.   We had discussion here for a while, and that really stuck in the craw of certain elements, so they had to get out their sh*t-disturber stick and start trying to foment distrust and dissention again, so nobody's willing to compromise on anything and nobody even wants to discuss their differences anymore.  And people tend to get suckered in and play along; it's hard not to.

Until people are willing to remove the sh*t-disturbers, anything we do will just be like putting a band-aid on cancer.   If it was up to me, I'd have the stick-weilder permanently banned so fast they'd think I did it with mirrors.  And I know that then they'd be screaming about what an "intolerant meanie" I am, but you know where they'd be screaming it?   Somewhere else.   :devil:   I don't give a damn about being "fair" to someone who's been proven to only use it against you.

Meanwhile, I'll play along with whatever band-aid anybody wants to try, but I do think that's all it's going to amount to...

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#24 Spectacles

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:09 PM

Quote

Ogami: So everyone should set you for ignore?

If they think I'm excessively partisan, absolutely. :)

And it's only a suggestion.
The other suggestion is for the moderators to crack down on partisan baiting and fallacious arguments, but I don't know if they have enough time to do that.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#25 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:17 PM

sierraleone, on Jun 1 2005, 01:06 PM, said:

Some of them do say something note worthy... of course each person would have decide is it worth while to them. I like the idea of people who want real discussion just saying "Off topic" or "back to the topic at hand" and/or if they want, painting some quotes red or blue (without actually responding to them though, other than "off topic"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yep.  I like the way that worked, very much actually.  Because its entirely possible that the comments made might be appropriate somewhere else, but in some contexts they are just unnecessarily argumenatitive... not playing the game while at the same time showing WHAT the game is... might be helpful.  Especially if we think the best of people, and not the worst. :)

Zwolf666, on Jun 1 2005, 01:07 PM, said:

Partisanship is like racism: it's useful to the Powers That Be because it keeps everyone too busy bickering about their "differences" to ever understand that they're all trying to screw us.  And there are those - little brainwashed footsoldiers - who can't stand it if any atmosphere of compromise is ever reached between parties.  They don't want discussions - they want "us vs. them," because anything else scares them.   We had discussion here for a while, and that really stuck in the craw of certain elements, so they had to get out their sh*t-disturber stick and start trying to foment distrust and dissention again, so nobody's willing to compromise on anything and nobody even wants to discuss their differences anymore.  And people tend to get suckered in and play along; it's hard not to.

Well, I don't think its an "us-vs-them" thing... and I think that characterizing it that way skates dangerously close to baiting...:(

Quote

Until people are willing to remove the sh*t-disturbers, anything we do will just be like putting a band-aid on cancer.   If it was up to me, I'd have the stick-weilder permanently banned so fast they'd think I did it with mirrors.  And I know that then they'd be screaming about what an "intolerant meanie" I am, but you know where they'd be screaming it?   Somewhere else.   :devil:   I don't give a damn about being "fair" to someone who's been proven to only use it against you.

Meanwhile, I'll play along with whatever band-aid anybody wants to try, but I do think that's all it's going to amount to...

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If partisanship is like racism, does it do us any good to sweep it under a rug we plan not to look at, or is it better to confront it, and refuse to feed it?

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#26 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:32 PM

Quote

Well, I don't think its an "us-vs-them" thing... and I think that characterizing it that way skates dangerously close to baiting...

******* I'm not trying to bait, but it's pretty hard to discuss the issue without calling it what it is.  I've seen people here accused of being Saddam-sympathizers, and I've watched people characterize Democrats as people who abort all their children, and other tripe.  I don't see how such things can in any way be seen as conducive to any kind of middle-ground-finding, or creating an atmosphere for non-partisanship.  All such ridiculous statements are designed for is to piss people off.  I'm not trying to bait, but nor am I gracious enough to pretend it's something different.  I can tell the difference between when I'm simply being disagreed with and when someone's picking a fight.  99% of the people here are pretty good at just disagreeing.  

Quote

If partisanship is like racism, does it do us any good to sweep it under a rug we plan not to look at, or is it better to confront it, and refuse to feed it?

****** Certainly.  But sometimes that doesn't work.  Some people will simply never meet you halfway, no matter what you do.  I know - I've tried.   If you water a garden but never pull out the weeds, you may be working against yourself.  But, like I said, I'll go along with any plan that's cooked up, even if I don't have a lot of faith in it.  I'd be happy to see it work and be proven wrong. :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#27 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:46 PM

^ I definately wouldn't expect it to work at first, and I'd expect people to disagree over what really deserves a red/blue coloured quote. I don't know if it would work in the long run (I don't expect short term success ;) ) but I think we should try. I also expect retallation, red or blueing quotes when conversations are evolving, even if they aren't getting particularly partisan.... One could argue partisan bickering is just topic drift... but some people still want to talk about the original topic, so another thread should be started in that case.

I could be wrong, I'm just thinking about things :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#28 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:52 PM

Quote

I could be wrong, I'm just thinking about things

******* I don't think it's a bad idea at all.  I'm just not sure it'll work in this case...  But, like I said, I'll give anything a shot.  Doesn't have to be my-way-or-the-highway. :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#29 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:00 PM

^ well I don't mind everyone going their own way on this :)

some people can use the ignorn feature
some people can ignorn the threads when it stars becoming partisan-ship
some people can continue in the threads but stay on topic and ignorn the partisan-ship
some people can do that and blue/red quotes *while* trying to ignorn the partisan-ship
some people can continue with the partisan-ship
some people can avoid OT all together (though I nearly thought partian-ship was going to start in a GM thread!)
or even leave EI (temporarily or not)


Or some combination of the above. I can't tell people what to do :) Hopefully things will change
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#30 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:03 PM

Quote

Or some combination of the above. I can't tell people what to do  Hopefully things will change

****** I hope so, too.  In any case, I admire your desire to make things better. :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#31 Rhea

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:32 PM

QueenTiye, on Jun 1 2005, 08:57 AM, said:

Ogami, on Jun 1 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

Chaddee wrote:

However, I STILL find that almost every thread is degenerating into republican/democrat slagging, namecalling, degeneration and justifcation.

Fine by me. Here's what I'd like to see from the opposing side, to "reach across the aisle" and get a more moderate tone. Democrats in Washington, do this:

1) Embryonic Research: Stop holding press conferences with people in wheelchairs stating that all of these people would be cured if not for the heartless President Bush. That's nonsense that Bush wants anyone to be in a wheelchair, and it's pure demagogery to state otherwise.

2) War in Iraq: So the war in Iraq was based on Bush's lies. So put Saddam Hussein back in power. So Iraq isn't a model Democracy in two years, give it ten years like we gave Germany and Japan. So islamic terrorists are streaming to Iraq rather than blowing up Israeli women and children, give our troops the means to decisively crush the foreign fighters and would-be Saddams. Let's work together to get Iraq back in shape, and stop looking for partisan advantage over Iraq.

3) Democrats demagoged to death the issue of Homeland Security, telling everyone who would listen that Bush was going to kill them all because he hadn't done what they wanted to do. Of course, they left out that their only objection was to Unionize everyone hired for Homeland Security, thereby creating an automatic forced donation base to Democrat campaigns, and a guaranteed voting block. What did currying favor with their Union buddies have to do with the nation's security? Nothing.

Two elections were just lost by the Democrats who chose to demagogue these issues, instead of working together for the good of the country. Newsflash to the Democrats (and reporters) in Washington: Supporting and encouraging our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan does not mean you would be boosting Bush! Get out of that disturbing mentality, and we'll get the job done. It's that easy.  :cool:


-Ogami

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


off-topic.... :rolleyes:

QT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


VERY off-topic, Ogami.

You weren't being asked to talk about what the Democrats in Washinton do, you were asked how it was possible to be more civil with the people you ARE talking with here. Your constant confusing of your peers here with the ee-vul democrats in Washington is part of the problem.

Edited by Rhea, 01 June 2005 - 01:33 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#32 Nonprofit

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 02:11 PM

Quote

Zwolf666 Posted Today, 12:07 PM
Until people are willing to remove the sh*t-disturbers, anything we do will just be like putting a band-aid on cancer.

I guess we would be saying Good-Bye to you.  You are correct,  sh*t disturbers should be removed.   And perhap you should have been removed when you admitted as to why you joined this board in the first place.  "To get Ogami!" Because here we are, with you showing your hate for Ogami once more with your personal posts,  just as you did before.  Same sh*t,  different thread.  

RuReddy

Edited to add this as reference as to nothing has changed with this hate over flowing into threads.  Its easy to read it in the recent posts.  Sorry this  is personal but speaking of removing the disturbers was not brought up by me.  I'm just addressing it.

http://www.exisle.ne...pic=25499&st=50

Quote

Zwolf Mar 7 2005, 05:04 PM
I never made any secret of what my plans were with Ogami, so, no big revelation there. And I had been content to leave him be until he started his slanderous b.s. over here. I wouldn't even be over here except that he was making slanderous statements, so if you don't like me over here, you only have him to thank for it. I've seen Ogami on several boards since he left Wacky, and didn't bother him on any of them. But, he finally called it, and he got it.

Zwolf Mar 7 2005, 06:44 PM
I got ticked when I saw Ogami's post about "non-ExIsle left" delighting in the deaths of our troops.
<snip>
I decided to join up here and make him sorry that he said what he did.
<snip>
I admit I had a target.

ZWolf Mar 7 2005, 06:44 PM
If anyone has an issue with Ogami being targeted, then I'm the man you want to be talking to about it, because I'm the only one who did it. If you don't like that, then, it's fine, you don't like it... but I never made a big secret about it. It was pretty obvious from what I was doing that he was my goal.

Zwolf Mar 8 2005, 06:49 PM
I was after you, and you, period. I've admitted that.

Edited by RuReddy1, 02 June 2005 - 08:57 AM.


#33 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 02:33 PM

Quote

I guess we would be saying Good-Bye to you. You are correct, sh*t disturbers should be removed. And perhap you should have been removed when you admitted as to why you joined this board in the first place. "To get Ogami!" Because here we are, with you showing your hate for Ogami once more with your personal posts, just as you did before. Same sh*t, different thread.

****** I mentioned no names, but it's interesting that you identify it as Ogami.

I'm comfortable in letting my track record here speak for itself.  I've butted heads with Ogami, certainly, but I've been pretty civil with everyone else... including you, for the most part, even though all one has to do is check the date you joined and your very first posts to make it pretty clear that the reason you came here was "to get Zwolf!"

But, whatever.  If the majority of the board decided that I was no more than a sh*t-disturber who was making things worse for everyone, then I'd take the banning... or save them the trouble and leave voluntarily.   I'm not trying to exempt myself from anything.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#34 Godeskian

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 02:59 PM

Can't we all just, get along?

#35 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 03:04 PM

Quote

Can't we all just, get along?

****** I don't know the lyrics to "Kum-Bye-Yah," but I'm willing to hum... :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#36 Call Me Robin

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 03:47 PM

I'd say there's a difference between arguing politics and making pointed personal attacks against others on this forum.  It is important to make this distinction.
Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved.
--Aristotle

The fanatic is not really a stickler to principle. He embraces a cause not primarily because of its justness or holiness but because of his desperate need for something to hold onto.
--Eric Hoffer

#37 Hibblette

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:11 PM

Democrats and Republicans are going to argue over issues.

That's just the way it is.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#38 tennyson

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:17 PM

and apparently Democrats and Democrats and Democrats and Libertarians, and political parties that don't exist in the US but that doesn't mean that the arguements can't be civil and evidence rather than assertion can't be the order of the day or at least what is aspired to. Everyone gets frustrated but anger and lashing out, especially in a generalized manner aren't ways to improve the level of debate and or to convince someone of something. You don't convert someone to your point of view by hitting them in the face(or denigrating the very things that make them who they are). It may be satisfying but its ultimately counterproductive in civil situations.

Edited by tennyson, 01 June 2005 - 07:18 PM.

"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#39 Spectacles

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:25 PM

Quote

Everyone gets frustrated but anger and lashing out, especially in a generalized manner aren't ways to improve the level of debate and or to convince someone of something. You don't convert someone to your point of view by hitting them in the face(or denigrating the very things that make them who they are). It may be satisfying but its ultimately counterproductive in civil situations.

Well-said, Tennyson. Sometimes easier said than done, I'll admit, but still something we all have to attempt. This particular community has pretty clearly articulated its desire that discussions remain civil. Everyone who is part of it ought to therefore make every effort to avoid making inflammatory generalizations, putting words in people's mouths for the purpose of arguing with them, etc. When in civil society, do as...civilians?...do. Anyway, excellent point.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#40 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:40 PM

Ditto on what tennyson said.  But also, as per the original message in this thread - every single issue isn't about democrats and republicans or any other such divide... and every single thread doesn't have to be made into that argument.  As I said before, I believe we know the difference - and if some of our fellow posters don't, then we can find nice ways of explaining it without it turning into what these things tend to... With the above color scheme, we may just get a lot of back and forth color changing... ;)  But we may also simply signal to ourselves not to go into the mud pit.  That, all by itself, is worthwhile.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght




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