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Republican/Democrat justification/degeneration

OT Partsianship

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#41 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:42 PM

Hibblette, on Jun 1 2005, 08:11 PM, said:

Democrats and Republicans are going to argue over issues.

That's just the way it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I understand they are going to argue. Its when the arguements get personal, and/or the partisan-ship bickering goes completely off topic and starts talking about Monica and Clinton when the thread started out about some completely different that wasn't even about a political party/politician to begin with!
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#42 Kevin Street

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:44 PM

Note in advance: I'm not talking about anyone specifically here.

We have been trying to have more nonpartisan discussions, like the ones we used to have when OT was first created, but the partisan arguing drives everyone else out. ETU has benefitted somewhat from this trend, since it has hosted several threads that would have fit better in OT, but the people participating in those discussions did not want to engage in the "us vs. them" arguing that is so common here and now, so they went to a quieter forum. That saddens me.

The problem is that, on a certain level, it's fun to argue. If we didn't enjoy it we wouldn't do it so much here. I think the solution (if there is one) is for us to find enjoyment in other non-partisan topics, or discussions that don't turn into arguments. True debate is like fencing, and it can be fun all on its own.
Per aspera ad astra

#43 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:47 PM

QueenTiye, on Jun 1 2005, 08:40 PM, said:

DBut also, as per the original message in this thread - every single issue isn't about democrats and republicans or any other such divide... and every single thread doesn't have to be made into that argument.  As I said before, I believe we know the difference - and if some of our fellow posters don't, then we can find nice ways of explaining it without it turning into what these things tend to...

QT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That another thing I don't like, for example there will be an issue that partisan pickering isn't really called for, but because someone advocated a position one party would, someone else will take a personal and/or partisan swipe at them that completely derails the thread and isn't what the topic was about. Then the other person comes back with the similar attitude and/or response... Just as bad as starting it is keeping it going. So this could give some people, who otherwise normally retaliate the same way, another way to confront them and ignorn them at the same time. Sort of saying "I've seen what you wrote, its off topic/inappropiate, I'm not going to respond to it, but I'm going to actually talk about the topic"

If I made sense ;)

Edited by sierraleone, 01 June 2005 - 07:51 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#44 Kevin Street

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:55 PM

^ You certainly do make sense. :) It sounds like a great idea.

#45 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 08:03 PM

Kevin Street, on Jun 1 2005, 08:44 PM, said:

Note in advance: I'm not talking about anyone specifically here.

The problem is that, on a certain level, it's fun to argue. If we didn't enjoy it we wouldn't do it so much here. I think the solution (if there is one) is for us to find enjoyment in other non-partisan topics, or discussions that don't turn into arguments. True debate is like fencing, and it can be fun all on its own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes... lively debate, even ones with little "zingers" in them can be envigorating... I would be all in favor of people simply announcing that that's the kind of thread they want - then people who want to participate can... and on the other hand, people should respect when someone says that that kind of debate isn't welcome.  Actually, I think OT has, for the most part, reached that level where people can say - this kind of discourse isn't welcome in this thread, and have it mostly respected.  But it really does have to be respected.  And when it isn't, I think its fair game to call people on it - especially in a way that doesn't invite more argument.

sierraleone, on Jun 1 2005, 08:47 PM, said:

That another thing I don't like, for example there will be an issue that partisan pickering isn't really called for, but because someone advocated a position one party would, someone else will take a personal and/or partisan swipe at them that completely derails the thread and isn't what the topic was about. Then the other person comes back with the similar attitude and/or response... Just as bad as starting it is keeping it going. So this could give some people, who otherwise normally retaliate the same way, another way to confront them and ignorn them at the same time. Sort of saying "I've seen what you wrote, its off topic/inappropiate, I'm not going to respond to it, but I'm going to actually talk about the topic"

If I made sense ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You made plenty of sense. :) I agree with you wholeheartely.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#46 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 08:28 PM

My only question is, do we have to use separate buttons, or is there a "What Tennyson and Sierraleone said" combo button around here anywhere?  :)

May not always be easy to live up to, but I think they've spoken wisdom that ought to at least be shot-for.

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#47 Balderdash

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 09:04 PM

I know that I like to debate politics but I'm willing to listen and maybe change my mind.  I don't want to argue.  I want to explain why I see things the way that I do and then listen to someone tell me their point of view and how they reached it.  But like others have said in this thread I don't like it when someone lumps me into a pile of like-minded people and then denigrates my world view.  I can be a hothead but if you treat me with respect you will receive the same.  I'm a moderate voting Democrat right now but I have voted for many Republicans and will again when they cut the religious fundies loose.  There are several conservatives on this board that I look for to get their take on an issue because I know the language won't be couched in the talking points of the day, they actually will speak about how the issue effects them.  I mostly post on a board that is now mostly like minded people but I think it's healthy to talk to others with a different point of view.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#48 Pallas

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 09:35 PM

What Tennyson and Sierraleone said.

I study politics as a student and that means I often discuss politics. I have to admit though, that there are many topics of interest on this board I would like to respond to but won't or don't dare to draw the fire of partisan bickering and I'm not even American.

So I agree with everything that's been said about staying on topic. And polite reminders in case someone doesn't realize they've deviated would be helpful too. Please remember that if someone uses a red herring or another argumentative fallacy, they might not be aware of it. A polite reminder would be nice instead of a slap upside the head.  :look:

Kalistria.
We can do noble acts without ruling the earth and sea--Aristotle

#49 Enkanowen

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 09:45 PM

to the first post: agreed!  Not all of us are either Reps or Dems... I for one have nothing to do with the US electoral system and am a Socialist and vote thus.

to everythign else... you can't see the world on polar opposites because that is not only silly but counter productive. The world isn't black and white, why should we think in such terms.

Edited by Enkanowen, 01 June 2005 - 09:50 PM.


#50 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 09:51 PM

^ probably another reason why a lot of people don't post in threads that turn out such... you might not even be able to fight their bull if you wanted to because you don't know what they are talking about :D or you just don't care ;)
And/or just don't like the way the discourse is going...

Edited by sierraleone, 01 June 2005 - 09:52 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#51 Elara

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:07 PM

hmmm... since I basically am in the center, use purple for the ones like me, okay? :)

Then we need a color for those that make off-topic comments whose only intent is to attack what someone else has said.

In all seriousness, I agree. The threads that are the most informative and a learning experience for all of us, are the ones where we discuss instead of blindly argue.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#52 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:12 PM

^ I was thinking about that too... red and blue do fine about partison-ship comments that are off topic.... but what about personal attacks (or what are perceived as personal attacks). Though those I don't think you should just highlight and ignorn always.... highlight it, says why and how it offended you... because the other person may not have known it offended you, and might be sorry (or maybe not ;) ).
But thats just my personal opinion.

I was thinking the colour yellow for personal attacks.... thinking green light, yellow light, red light.... so it makes me thinking of a warning/caution colour.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#53 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:20 PM

sierraleone, on Jun 1 2005, 11:12 PM, said:

^ I was thinking about that too... red and blue do fine about partison-ship comments that are off topic.... but what about personal attacks (or what are perceived as personal attacks). Though those I don't think you should just highlight and ignorn always.... highlight it, says why and how it offended you... because the other person may not have known it offended you, and might be sorry (or maybe not ;) ).
But thats just my personal opinion.

I was thinking the colour yellow for personal attacks.... thinking green light, yellow light, red light.... so it makes me thinking of a warning/caution colour.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hey! I really like that! Yellow for offenses, with an explanation of why its an offense? Very cool... ;)  And frankly, if its yellow and DOESN'T come with an explanation its still cool, because it gives the poster some information - namely - that something they said was taken personally.  They might not know!

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#54 Zwolf

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:34 PM

And I think that any criticism of me, personally, should be written in light blue.  So it'll blend into the background, and I won't be able to read it, and can safely carry on with my delusion that I am perfect. :)

(Sorry, I'm obnoxious and I can't help saying stupid things, it's like a compulsion, please ignore me... :) )


Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#55 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:35 PM

Zwolf666, on Jun 1 2005, 11:34 PM, said:

And I think that any criticism of me, personally, should be written in light blue.  So it'll blend into the background, and I won't be able to read it, and can safely carry on with my delusion that I am perfect. :)

(Sorry, I'm obnoxious and I can't help saying stupid things, it's like a compulsion, please ignore me... :) )


Cheers,


Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:whistle:

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#56 sierraleone

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:40 PM

^^ lol :D

There aren't enough basic colours to give everyone their own ;)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#57 Pallas

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:08 PM

Ermm...not to rain on your parade but wouldn't having a colour-code system make everything horribly colourful as people start to lose track of what the heck is going on? Given the amount of mudslinging by both sides, this whole forum would be a rainbow of bruises--so to say.

:wacko:

Kalistria.
We can do noble acts without ruling the earth and sea--Aristotle

#58 prolog

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:26 PM

Agreed.  Colour is abused too frequently on the web.  Frequent colour changes makes for a poor interface, more reminiscent of a 1995 Geocities website than a discussion board.  Can we just keep black text?

#59 Enkanowen

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:47 PM

prolog, on Jun 2 2005, 12:26 AM, said:

Agreed.  Colour is abused too frequently on the web.  Frequent colour changes makes for a poor interface, more reminiscent of a 1995 Geocities website than a discussion board.  Can we just keep black text?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



NO! It shall be lime green on a bed of hot pink!!!

#60 QueenTiye

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:55 PM

Unless the mods tell me not to do so, I'm going with the color scheme.  If people like black text, they can behave themselves... :)

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght




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