54 replies to this topic

[Ilphi]

Okay, I know France is everyones favourite whipping boy right now...

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The commission's announcement today was based on analyses of 5,500 requests by French Jews seeking restitution. Some 8,800 requests remain.

Based on the initial requests, the commission recommended that the government pay $91 million in compensation and banks pay $3.7 million (all figures U.S.).

During World War II, occupied France's collaborationist Vichy regime passed a series of laws ordering financial institutions to block Jewish accounts and sell off Jewish-owned stocks and bonds.

http://www.thestar.c...ol=968705899037

[Godeskian]

and this is why Jews have a bad name

were they wronged in WWII? yes
Should that be forgotten? no
Do they deserve to keep, and keep, and keep milking everyone they can find for more stuff based on something that happened over 50 YEARS AGO?!?!?

no, they don't. If they do, then a lot of other people can start claiming compensation too
heck, my great, great, great grandparents were tossed out of Ireland, i'm emotionally distraught, pay me

i mean come on.

[Bossy]

^The Jews aren't the only group of people doing this you know.

[Neptunian]

Blech. Vive la commune!  

[NeuralClone]

What Bossy said.

[Ilphi]

I heard on the radio once some Black people were marching because their forefathers were slaves.

Well you wern't, were you! You suffered no hinderance in life!

In the end they all want "compensation", and we know what that comes down to.

[Chipper]

The more and more the Jewish population demands restitution for WWII, the less support they will have.  Yes, what happened was a tragedy, but why should today's civilization continue to pay for the crimes committed back then?  A majority of the government figures alive back then, if not all, are dead.  Continuing to demand payback only lowers my opinion of these people.

Should I start demanding money from the Russians because the former USSR killed by great grandfather?  Or because the communists wouldn't let my family out of the country until the 1980s because we were "enemies of the state" ??? You don't see me doing that.

These people should shut up because despite the reality of what happened back then, this is not WWII, this is not the 1940s.  Right now, the Iraqis should be suing for water, for medical supplies and whatnot because of looters that took everything.  



Note:  This isn't meant to blast the Jewish people as a whole, just those who continue to demand this sort of stuff regarding the Holocaust which was 60 years ago...

[Jude]

Pffffffft. Here we go again.

[writergroupie]

Okay, the anti-semitic atmosphere in here is toxic, but I will just say because I think hate and ignorance needs to be confronted and not simply accepted, that I find Gode and Chipper's comments extremely offensive and narrowminded.

Jill

[DWF]

Chipper, on Apr 16 2003, 06:04 PM, said:

These people should shut up because despite the reality of what happened back then, this is not WWII, this is not the 1940s.  Right now, the Iraqis should be suing for water, for medical supplies and whatnot because of looters that took everything. 

Why should they sue the French? It's nottheir fault, their shops are looted, and they need water, they weren't the ones dropping the bombs on them.

Not that it makes much of a difference, we'll be the ones rebuilding them, and it'll be our tax money that does it. And we'll just go deeper into debt.

And what's worse, we'll still be targets of terrorists, mainly because we still couldn't get the leader of the last group who terrorized us.

[Uncle Sid]

Well, in terms of not having to pay every group back that has ever been wronged, I'd have to say that there is a good point.  However, in the past, there was not such a thing as an international rule of law which we have the beginnings of today.  In order to maintain that, and expand the influence of arbitration over ethnic revenge as a means of redressing those wrongs, civil suits like this are the way to go.  That is to say that, in the past, people wronged by others have had the historic option, if not the almost universally accepted right to wreak revenge on their "oppressors".  Now, we consider wars for the redress of historic wrongs to be unacceptable, but there still must be way of gaining some satisfaction, lest conquest and inhuman treatment be seen as a situation with no downside whatsoever.

I've always seen the cases of the Jews against various states to be more of a method of raising public awareness of the situation.  Further, unlike the American black slaves and natives, many Holocaust survivors are alive even today.  There is a difference that can be made for them.  In this regard, compensation can be direct as well as for awareness.  In any event, the amount of money awarded for this seems no more extreme than what many people want to sue Big Tobacco for, and those companies sell a legal product that requires the cooperation of smokers in order to cause harm.  Are people who have been tortured and whose families have been killed any less entitled to some compensation?  

As for France, that nation does have a recent history of anti-semitism that has influenced official actions, one only needs to look back as far as the Vichy government and the Dreyfuss case to see that.  Indeed today, France has a significantly greater sympathy for the Arabs than it does for their Israeli neighbors.  The unofficial sentiment against Jews is certainly not dead there even now, so I would say that in terms of awareness there is work to be done there.  

Nevertheless, I do have to agree that at a certain point, suits will eventually incur more ire than gain for the cause that they support.  Hopefully, those who are advocating these actions will see when that time has come.  I imagine that once the last direct survivors are dead, the cases will eventually drop off.  I hope, though, that in the end, they stand as an example of accountability that these most recent generations have established for inhumane actions.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 17 April 2003 - 04:14 AM.

[Jude]

'Scuse me, Jill? Could you please point out for me the direct anti-Jewish posts? I can only speak for myself, but my disgruntelment was directed at anyone who thinks that they should be able to mooch money off people whose great grandparents mistreated their great grandparents.

And I am very sorry if my post came across as anti-semitic.

[DWF]

^^^Well, Jill didn't single out your post.

[G1223]

Sid  just wanting to add weren't there reports of attacks against Jewish neighborhood in France and Germany a year ago or was it two. At the time there were reports about the govenement not taking a lot of visible action.

I am not bashing France and Germany with that comment. I am saying that reports have been made. For all we know the governments are doing something but are looking for the higher ups in these organizations.

[writergroupie]

Erisinia, on Apr 16 2003, 08:11 PM, said:

'Scuse me, Jill? Could you please point out for me the direct anti-Jewish posts?

I did.  But to make it crystal clear: Chipper's repeated comments about "these people" and how they should shut up and Gode's comment "and this is why Jews have a bad name".

It doesn't matter if you insert 'gays', 'blacks', 'Jews' or any other group into the above posts -- the statements are completely offensive and bigoted, but in this specific case, anti-semitic.  

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I can only speak for myself, but my disgruntelment was directed at anyone who thinks that they should be able to mooch money off people whose great grandparents mistreated their great grandparents.

Quick history lesson: Holocaust survivors are still alive.  They themselves want their own money back from the institutions that stole it from them.  So if someone steals your money from you, do you think you should just "shut up" or do you want your money back?  

But that's separate from what brought me into this thread.  I won't tolerate hatred.  And I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Jill

[Anakam]

Erisinia, on Apr 17 2003, 04:11 AM, said:

mooch money off people whose great grandparents mistreated their great grandparents.

I think part of it is that it's not even that far back.... in some cases it's the survivors themselves seeking compensation, or their children, so it is pretty close still.... *especially* given how many people were affected.  :pout:  If only neo Nazis and the like would disappear--I'm sure it'd go a ways toward healing that part of history.  Or maybe I'm an eternal optimist about some things and would just like to think so.

[Jude]

Jill: Oh, gosh. I'm sorry. I'm just a lazy dumb 15 year old and compleately missed  that.

I'm really really sorry for being dumb.

[writergroupie]

Erisinia, on Apr 16 2003, 09:03 PM, said:

Jill: Oh, gosh. I'm sorry. I'm just a lazy dumb 15 year old and compleately missed  that.

I'm really really sorry for being dumb.

Erisinia, no worries.   And there's a difference between being 'dumb' and not knowing something.   The best way to combat ignorance is with information.

But then there are those who don't *want* information... now that's dumb.

Jill

[Anakam]

{{{{{{{{{Eris}}}}}}}}}}}  When I was a freshman in high school, there were quite a few people in my class who didn't know what a swastika was and didn't know how to recognize the Nazi one.  I was.... appalled by that.  And I forgot where I was going with that, except that that's always stuck in my mind and as far as I'm concerned you're pretty ahead of them knowledge-wise.

[Chipper]

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Why should they sue the French? It's nottheir fault, their shops are looted, and they need water, they weren't the ones dropping the bombs on them.

That came out unclear in my post.  I mean that the Iraqis should be suing US for water and whatnot.  The interviews I've seen on tv are really disheartening.  The people are without anything.

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Okay, the anti-semitic atmosphere in here is toxic, but I will just say because I think hate and ignorance needs to be confronted and not simply accepted, that I find Gode and Chipper's comments extremely offensive and narrowminded.

I'm not trying to be antisemtiic.  I just feel that the continuing demands for compensation by the Holocaust victims isn't needed.  Like I said, I think that the crimes committed against the Jews are terrible, but why is this still continuing?  THe current government isn't the regime of 60 years ago.  Why has it taken 60 years for these demands to be made?

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I did. But to make it crystal clear: Chipper's repeated comments about "these people" and how they should shut up and Gode's comment "and this is why Jews have a bad name".

It doesn't matter if you insert 'gays', 'blacks', 'Jews' or any other group into the above posts -- the statements are completely offensive and bigoted, but in this specific case, anti-semitic.

I'm not talking about the Jewish religion as a whole, whatsoever.  And "these people" wasn't meant to be derogatory, sorry if it came across that way.  My feeling on the matter, like I said, is that this issue of 60 years ago shouldn't be continued.  The governments of the world have enough on their plate, there are plenty of issues in the MIddle East that continue to this day.  Do we need to continue to bring up the old wounds, which I'm sure have NOT healed at all for many people?  It's tragic what happened, so why are they suing Franc eonly now?  Why don't they continue demanding from Germany?  THe Vichy France regime was under Nazi supervision, its not Modern France.  So why are the people of France being punished now?  THe country's money comes from them, and from other places as well.  Put it this way: the people in the US are essentially going to rebuild Iraq with their tax dollars.  Should the Iraqis start suing Saddam for all the pain he caused them?  It isn't going to happen.  And that wound is much fresher than that of the Holocaust.

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Quick history lesson: Holocaust survivors are still alive. They themselves want their own money back from the institutions that stole it from them. So if someone steals your money from you, do you think you should just "shut up" or do you want your money back? sarcasm.gif

That institution being the Nazi controlled Vichy regime.  

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But that's separate from what brought me into this thread. I won't tolerate hatred. And I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Hatred and annoyance are different things.  I do NOT hate the Jewish population.  Many of my good friends are Jewish.  Im ANNOYED that so many issues are still being brought up, and that the people of today, who weren't around back then, are being made to pay for them.  
Can we get Osama to pay for the 9/11 attacks?  No.  Yet wrongful death lawsuits are still being issued.  The people have a right to demand money, I'll accept that.  But does that mean that the US government, or in this case the French gov't, should pay for them?  Not when they aren't the ones responsible.

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But then there are those who don't *want* information... now that's dumb.

So now I'm ignorant?  Please.  Sorry for being "dumb" because I didn't "ask" for information.  Would you care to teach me?  Because I haven't reallly gone to school for most of my life...
I stated my opinion.  I'm dumb for not agreeing with it?  I'm "dumb" because you saw it as anti-Semitism.  I made a point in my original post to say that this was NOT directed to the world Jewish population as a whole.  I have NO problems with many Jewish people, though I do have issues with the Israeli state and what has happened in the Middle East.  THat is my opinion, and am I "dumb" for having it?  THat's the way I"m reading your post.


I treid to keep this as calm as possible, because the accusations made against me were pretty insulting.  

Chipper

Edited to fix UBB

Edited by Chipper, 17 April 2003 - 07:13 PM.