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France told it owes Jews millions

France War reparations Jews

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#21 G1223

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 07:19 PM

Chipper I think folks on both sides have flowen off the handle.

That aside. The jewish people of france are in some cases still french citizens they have as has been said had property taken from them by a government that was in place at the time. They are seekeing redress of that matter and it's tkaen this long in some of these cases to get to where they may finally be judged.

Also some of the other clinets are the children of French Jews or maybe even grandchildren seeking settlement on the parent /grandparent estate. This not a attempt to seek punitive damages merely a return of what was taken.
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#22 Rhea

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 07:39 PM

writergroupie, on Apr 16 2003, 08:47 PM, said:

Erisinia, on Apr 16 2003, 08:11 PM, said:

'Scuse me, Jill? Could you please point out for me the direct anti-Jewish posts?
I did.  But to make it crystal clear: Chipper's repeated comments about "these people" and how they should shut up and Gode's comment "and this is why Jews have a bad name".

It doesn't matter if you insert 'gays', 'blacks', 'Jews' or any other group into the above posts -- the statements are completely offensive and bigoted, but in this specific case, anti-semitic.  


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I can only speak for myself, but my disgruntelment was directed at anyone who thinks that they should be able to mooch money off people whose great grandparents mistreated their great grandparents.

Quick history lesson: Holocaust survivors are still alive.  They themselves want their own money back from the institutions that stole it from them.  So if someone steals your money from you, do you think you should just "shut up" or do you want your money back?  :sarcasm:

But that's separate from what brought me into this thread.  I won't tolerate hatred.  And I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Jill
What Jill said.

We're not talking ancient history here. We're not talking about people protesting because their great-great-great- whatever were slaves. We're talking about the Holocaust, which happened within recent history, and the people who lost their families and their properties because of the actions of many countries - France's Vichy government was a blight on the landscape. And they took the property and money of a lot of Jews. That's documentable. And damn right the French and anyone else who did the same should have to cough it up.

We're talking about survivors and the families of survivors asking for their own bleeping money back. And it's about time.
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#23 AnneZo

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:16 PM

writergroupie, on Apr 17 2003, 03:47 AM, said:

Quick history lesson: Holocaust survivors are still alive.  They themselves want their own money back from the institutions that stole it from them.  So if someone steals your money from you, do you think you should just "shut up" or do you want your money back?  :sarcasm:
Thank you, Jill.

I was hoping someone would point this out.

#24 Chipper

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:17 PM

G1223, on Apr 17 2003, 11:03 AM, said:

Chipper I think folks on both sides have flowen off the handle.

That aside. The jewish people of france are in some cases still french citizens they have as has been said had property taken from them by a government that was in place at the time. They are seekeing redress of that matter and it's tkaen this long in some of these cases to get to where they may finally be judged.

Also some of the other clinets are the children of French Jews or maybe even grandchildren seeking settlement on the parent /grandparent estate. This not a attempt to seek punitive damages merely a return of what was taken.
It's sad that it has taken this long.  These people should have recieved restitution a long time ago.  That I realize is not what happened and I personally wish it had.
The people deserve to be paid back, my issue is that the current government shouldn't suffer for those mistakes, nor should the people of France.
Why don't the same people sue Germany, because isn't that where the Nazis were strongest?

But this argument is basically defunct, because both sides have support for their cases.

And speaking on a more personal level, I don't see any restitution coming for the people in Balkans who were oppressed under communism for god knows how long as well.  You don't see many suing there.  Russia isn't being sued right now by the Bulgarian people because family members were murdered.  And yet, Stalin killed so many people during his regime.  More than the total number of Jewish citizens who died in France.


THis is a highly sensitive issue, and I recognize that.  I"ll just pull out of this thread because there is no reason for people to come to blows over this matter.  I didn't mean to be anti-Semetic, I apologize for that.  THere was no feeling of hatred on my part.
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#25 AnneZo

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:21 PM

Chipper, on Apr 17 2003, 03:53 PM, said:

I'm not trying to be antisemtiic.  I just feel that the continuing demands for compensation by the Holocaust victims isn't needed.  Like I said, I think that the crimes committed against the Jews are terrible, but why is this still continuing?  THe current government isn't the regime of 60 years ago.  Why has it taken 60 years for these demands to be made?
And I'm not trying to single you out or anything, but I'd like to add that I'm concerned, deeply concerned, about the future of a country populated by people who think "60 years ago" is some kind of dead, ancient history.  

(I'm not even going to try and respond with a list of the ways these European Jews have struggled to get their property and their lives back over the last 60 years.  Ancient history, you know? :) )

#26 Chipper

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:27 PM

I"m not trying to make it seem to be "ancient history" It's not, and I know that.
However, the point I was trying to make was that hte government is 60 years old, and the people who were in control then are not the smae ones now.  The wounds haven't healed, thats a fact, but I think that this issue is one where IMO there is no right solution.  PUnishing the current government for the old one has been done for ages, and it usually fosters unsympathetic feelings.  BUt the Jewish people deserve to have something back.  I don't think I was so clear on my views in my original post.  My main sticking point, like I said, is that the people of today, the French people, should not have to pay the Jewish population for something that the Nazi-controlled Vichy regime did.  it isn't fair, for BOTH sides.  

That's what sucks the most.
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#27 Kosh

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:27 PM

Quote

Holocaust survivors are still alive.

That's the kicker. I hope they win.
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#28 G1223

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:40 PM

Well the Russians and Balkins is another seperate issue. Now if we are talking about the folks who survived the ethnic cleansing that was being carried out in Yugoslavia after that country fragmented. Then yes there should be restitution. These campps were well documentd.  

Then again this was one of the few thing Clinton got us into I agreed with. I just feel sad it took too damm long to do it. Becasue these actions were going on and Europe fiddled away while the place burned down. I also felt bad that we did not step in when the camps were first documented in the media let alone intellegence briefings.
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#29 writergroupie

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:44 PM

Chipper, on Apr 17 2003, 08:53 AM, said:

I'm not trying to be antisemtiic.  I just feel that the continuing demands for compensation by the Holocaust victims isn't needed.
See all the other posts on the topic as to why it IS needed.  As to your not intending to be anti-semitic, Chipper, this isn't the first time you've made grandiose judgmental statements (on various topics), been corrected with information, and forced to apologize for your previous statements.  But just to remind you -- there are consequences to behavior -- especially when that behavior is deemed offensive.  Such as people telling you just how offensive and hurtful your words were.

When someone makes broad sweeping negative statements about a group of people, calling them "these people" and telling them to just "shut up" implying they have no rights, that is being bigoted.  In this case, your post was anti-semitic.

If you don't want to be seen as such, don't post such offensive comments.  Equally, if you don't want me around the ExIsle, keep posting them.  I won't stay in a community where stereotyping and hate-mongering are promoted.


Quote

Quote

But then there are those who don't *want* information... now that's dumb.

So now I'm ignorant?  Please.  Sorry for being "dumb" because I didn't "ask" for information.  Would you care to teach me?  Because I haven't reallly gone to school for most of my life...
I stated my opinion.  I'm dumb for not agreeing with it?  I'm "dumb" because you saw it as anti-Semitism.  I made a point in my original post to say that this was NOT directed to the world Jewish population as a whole.  I have NO problems with many Jewish people, though I do have issues with the Israeli state and what has happened in the Middle East.  THat is my opinion, and am I "dumb" for having it?  THat's the way I"m reading your post.

Here we go again.  :sarcasm: Nowhere did I accuse you of being dumb.  I stated that people who do not want information and would rather be ignorant are dumb.  Do you put yourself in that category?  Because I didn't.

Jill

Edited by writergroupie, 17 April 2003 - 08:46 PM.

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#30 AnneZo

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 08:52 PM

Chipper, on Apr 17 2003, 05:11 PM, said:

The wounds haven't healed, thats a fact, but I think that this issue is one where IMO there is no right solution.
I understand your point better now and I think this is one of those issues where there's no "happy" solution.

As to the current government "paying" for past government mistakes, I'm afraid I disagree on that one.  A government, by virtue of its position in society and by virtue of its continuity is, has to be responsible to past and future generations.  

"Administrations" change, but they are facets of one government.  If they weren't, there would be no consequences for evil actions and thus no reason for a government to avoid evil.

#31 Chipper

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:11 PM

Quote

See all the other posts on the topic as to why it IS needed.  As to your not intending to be anti-semitic, Chipper, this isn't the first time you've made grandiose judgmental statements (on various topics), been corrected with information, and forced to apologize for your previous statements.  But just to remind you -- there are consequences to behavior -- especially when that behavior is deemed offensive.  Such as people telling you just how offensive and hurtful your words were.

So now you don't believe me.  Great.  Because that's how I'm calling it.  You think I'm trying to apologize here?  No, I'm not.  I'm trying to make the position I made more clearer.  How many times do I have to state that while what happened is totally inhumane and unacceptable, why should France TODAY be punished?  It isn't the same world as it was during World War II.  Do the Jewish citizens have the right to feel angry?  Yes.  But asking for over 90 million dollars from France and its people?  I don't agree with that.  Going by your beliefs, I suppose that the Iraqi citizens should sue the new regime for the oppression of Saddam.  Is that right?  No.

And thanks for bringing up those other incidients.  Because I'm learning here.  I'm only in high school, it's not like I'm an expert at life.  I've made choices, and many mistakes.  Grandiose statements?  By not supporting Bush and using a wrong outlet in the long run to show that.  I'll have you know I DO stand for the pledge now, out of principle.  THis war being about oil as well as other things, not only to help the Iraqis?  I stand by that.  I have NOT been forced to apologize at all.  I make a decision to apologize.
and maybe my words were hurtful, but am I blasting the entire world Jewish population here?  Not in my opinion.  BUt then again, because my words were hurtful to you, it doesn't matter.

Quote

When someone makes broad sweeping negative statements about a group of people, calling them "these people" and telling them to just "shut up" implying they have no rights, that is being bigoted.  In this case, your post was anti-semitic.

So, we can't use different words to describe people?  Instead of Jewish people, I can't say these people when I used Jewish at the beginning of the sentence?  Please, I already clarified what I meant by that.  Did I say they have no rights? No.  Shut up was probably too harsh of a statement.  So stop accusing me of anti-semitism when I have stated plenty of times that it wasn't mean to seem that way.  SHould I start stating why I don't support the state of Israel?  Because I take it you'll blast me on that as well.  But see, my views tehre aren't towards the Jewish people, but some of their beliefs.  IS that anti-SEmitism?  Don't think so.


Quote

If you don't want to be seen as such, don't post such offensive comments.  Equally, if you don't want me around the ExIsle, keep posting them.  I won't stay in a community where stereotyping and hate-mongering are promoted.

So now I promote stereotyping and hatemongering.  Thanks, really apprecitaed.

And to help the hate quota go down...I'm gone now.  See ya.  Because its obvious Ex Isle shouldn't be a hating community and guess what?  That's what I promote!  :dontgetit:

Have a nice life Ex Isle.  I'm done with you.
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#32 Drew

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:24 PM

Quote

If you don't want me around the ExIsle, keep posting them. I won't stay in a community where stereotyping and hate-mongering are promoted.

Er, I think you missed some threads from a couple weeks back.
This one, for example.
Or this one.

Quote

But just to remind you -- there are consequences to behavior -- especially when that behavior is deemed offensive. Such as people telling you just how offensive and hurtful your words were.

There don't seem to be any consequences at all, as long as one targets the right identity group.
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#33 writergroupie

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:29 PM

Drew, on Apr 17 2003, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

If you don't want me around the ExIsle, keep posting them. I won't stay in a community where stereotyping and hate-mongering are promoted.

Er, I think you missed some threads from a couple weeks back.
This one, for example.
Or this one.

Quote

But just to remind you -- there are consequences to behavior -- especially when that behavior is deemed offensive. Such as people telling you just how offensive and hurtful your words were.

There don't seem to be any consequences at all, as long as one targets the right identity group.
Sorry, I don't understand?  Posts about Spongebob and Klingons?  What does that have to do with hatred/offensive statements towards a group of people?  And if I missed people making racial or ethnic or other slurs there, I hope someone else addressed them.

Jill
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#34 NeuralClone

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:31 PM

writergroupie, on Apr 17 2003, 02:13 PM, said:

Sorry, I don't understand?  Posts about Spongebob and Klingons?  What does that have to do with hatred/offensive statements towards a group of people?  And if I missed people making racial or ethnic or other slurs there, I hope someone else addressed them.
I'm not Drew but I believe the point he's trying to make is that those posts could also be considered offensive (and were considered offensive by some) to certain groups of people.
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#35 Drew

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:35 PM

writergroupie, on Apr 17 2003, 01:13 PM, said:

Sorry, I don't understand?  Posts about Spongebob and Klingons?  What does that have to do with hatred/offensive statements towards a group of people?
Read the threads, then you'll understand.

Quote

And if I missed people making racial or ethnic or other slurs there, I hope someone else addressed them.

I tried.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#36 writergroupie

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:45 PM

Drew, on Apr 17 2003, 11:19 AM, said:

Quote

And if I missed people making racial or ethnic or other slurs there, I hope someone else addressed them.

I tried.
Good for you.  Seriously.

I'm not saying that it's my job to play 'bigot police' here.  But when I found an instance -- I responded.  Because that's what I believe.  And I respect anyone else who refuses to find racial, ethnic, sexual preference or any other kind of slurs acceptable.

You're a lot more likely to get attacked for speaking up.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't speak up.

Jill
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#37 Bad Wolf

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:48 PM

Chipper and Gode I'm sure you didn't INTEND to come off sounding anti semitic.  However, I have to agree with Jill in how it came off.  Holocaust victims are still alive.  But you know what even if they weren't so what?  The wrong was still done.  Is there a time limit on seeking restitution just because they're Jews?

If they weren't would you Gode be saying, this is why Catholics have a bad name?  Just by saying what you said you perpetuated the "Shylock/userer" prejudicial stereotype about Jews.  Do you see what I'm saying?

And Chipper, why SHOULDN'T victims of the holocaust continue to seek reparation if the wrong was in fact done?  In 40 years are you going to claim that the victims of 9-11 should just "get over it" or let it go?

Again, not saying you intended to come across like you did but trying to explain why it *did* come across as it did to several people.  I don't intend to drive anyone away or suggest that they are hate mongerers here but, as Jill said, I'm calling this as I see it.

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#38 the 'Hawk

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:49 PM

Honestly? If no one said anything that might offend someone else, think of what the world would be deprived of.

Comedy.
Poetry.
Discussion.
Debate.
Diversity.

You take away our right to say what we want because it might offend someone, and you take us backwards.

Implicit in the right to free speech is both the right not to listen, and the right to reply.

That's the way the game is played. That's the only rule anyone plays by anyway. Either make an argument, make a counterargument, or get outta the kitchen, 'cause it's hot stuff, baby.

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#39 NeuralClone

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:55 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 17 2003, 02:32 PM, said:

And Chipper, why SHOULDN'T victims of the holocaust continue to seek reparation if the wrong was in fact done?  In 40 years are you going to claim that the victims of 9-11 should just "get over it" or let it go?
I really shouldn't get involved in this thread but I will say this. How much compensation is enough compensation and when does it stop?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the subject of this thread. I refuse to take sides because I really don't know what the "correct" solution is.
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#40 Drew

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 09:58 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 17 2003, 01:33 PM, said:

Implicit in the right to free speech is both the right not to listen, and the right to reply.
And there is no right to freedom from offense.

However, I'd appreciate it if we did our best to avoid such things.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."



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