Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

France told it owes Jews millions

France War reparations Jews

  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#41 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:02 PM

I'm not talking about free speech here.  If you'll remember Drew I'm not the one who advocates deletion of threads that are anti Christian.  

That said, as much as people have a right to their opinion, as offensive as I might find it, I also have the right to voice my offense, and to state why I  find it offensive.

Two way streets and all.:)

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 17 April 2003 - 10:03 PM.

Posted Image

#42 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:04 PM

^ Whoa, Lil.

If we're going to call Jill on bringing Chipper's past posting style into question, I'm going to have to call you for bringing Drew's into question, too.

That's a bit much.

:cool:
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#43 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:05 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 17 2003, 01:46 PM, said:

If you'll remember Drew I'm not the one who advocates deletion of threads that are anti Christian.
That's a pretty gross simplification of the thread I started in AQG.

Quote

That said, as much as people have a right to their opinion, as offensive as I might find it, I also have the right to voice my offense, and to state why I  find it offensive.

Absolutely. I take full advantage of it. ;)
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#44 Chipper

Chipper

    Give it up

  • Islander
  • 5,202 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:05 PM

[QUOTE] Chipper and Gode I'm sure you didn't INTEND to come off sounding anti semitic.  However, I have to agree with Jill in how it came off.  Holocaust victims are still alive.  But you know what even if they weren't so what?  The wrong was still done.  Is there a time limit on seeking restitution just because they're Jews?[/QUOTE]

EDIT: okay, didn't work right...
there isn't a time limit.  And the wrong was a terrible one.  Restituion is deserved.  I just don't believe that modern France should be punished for Vichy France.  And AnneZo said that the next government should be responsible for the past one, but how can that work?  Should a new government, created by the people who overthrew the past one, be punished for the people overthrowed?  I don't think so.

[QUOTE]
And Chipper, why SHOULDN'T victims of the holocaust continue to seek reparation if the wrong was in fact done?  In 40 years are you going to claim that the victims of 9-11 should just "get over it" or let it go?

Again, not saying you intended to come across like you did but trying to explain why it *did* come across as it did to several people.  I don't intend to drive anyone away or suggest that they are hate mongerers here but, as Jill said, I'm calling this as I see it.

Lil[/QUOTE]

I don't think they should let it go at all.  It is something that should remain in the consciousness of all people.  It's the demands for payment that I don't agree with, despite the fact that I *do* believe that the victims deserve restitution of some sort.  However, the problem is where does this payback come from?  A government that wasn't around during the Holocaust?  A population that wasn't around or was very young at the time?  There is no easy answer to what the victims deserve and how they should go about getting it...there never is.  But IMO, somethings will never be able to be repayed, and this is probably one of them.  That's MO, and it's obvious people disagree.

And I see why people took my statements more harshly then I intended them to.  I did the same with Jill's.  I'm at fault, and so are other people here because of misunderstanding.
Opinions are appreciated.  However, feelings of "hatemongering" aren't something that I associate with myself, or anyone else here. [/QUOTE]
Lesse if the quoting thing worked, as my mouse froze up here....

Argh!  Screw it! :-P

Edited by Chipper, 17 April 2003 - 10:09 PM.

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?"

- Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#45 the 'Hawk

the 'Hawk
  • Islander
  • 5,281 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:06 PM

^ You have an extra [/quote] in there, Chipper.
“Now is the hour, Riders of Rohan, oaths you have taken! Now, fulfil them all! To lord and land!”  
~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#46 Bossy

Bossy

    Chaos Personified

  • Islander
  • 1,408 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:08 PM

The Sisko, on Apr 17 2003, 01:39 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 17 2003, 02:32 PM, said:

And Chipper, why SHOULDN'T victims of the holocaust continue to seek reparation if the wrong was in fact done?  In 40 years are you going to claim that the victims of 9-11 should just "get over it" or let it go?
I really shouldn't get involved in this thread but I will say this. How much compensation is enough compensation and when does it stop?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the subject of this thread. I refuse to take sides because I really don't know what the "correct" solution is.
Sisko makes a good point. When is it enough, or even too much?

Now, before anyone gets all bent out of shape, let me just clarify that I am not talking about any particular group here, and I am not saying that seeking compensation/redress/repairation is wrong. I just want to know, where is the line drawn?

See, here is the real problem. Humans, being what we are, do have a tendancy to look for the easy way. Some of us have trained ourselves not to do that. You have to admitt, though, that there are a lot of people who haven't. There will always be people who would rather have something that is owed to them be handed to them rather than have to work for it.

*shrug*

Where does it end? Who makes that call? If the decision is made to pay out funds, where do they come from? Sure, the government in question is paying, but where do they get the money from? From tax money collected from other citizens? Most likely. Did those citizens in any way contribute to the loss suffered by those seeking repairation? Did they directly profit from it? If not, then why should they be forced to pay?

Can you see the slippery slope?

Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know how you can be fair to everyone.

Bossy

#47 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:12 PM

the'Hawk, on Apr 17 2003, 07:48 PM, said:

^ Whoa, Lil.

If we're going to call Jill on bringing Chipper's past posting style into question, I'm going to have to call you for bringing Drew's into question, too.

That's a bit much.

:cool:
I don't know who "we" is but um on this one you can count me out.  I'm only referencing a previous post, not a style of posting.  Drew did in fact, in reference to Mr. Hinman's Christian parody threads suggest that such things should simply not be allowed.  I'd be more than happy to find the link if you'd like:)

At any rate, my point was that I wasn't talking about free speech but explaining why I found that statments in question offensive.:)
Posted Image

#48 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:16 PM

The term "hatemongering" is tossed about way too often, and shuts down the possibility of any sort of reasoned debate. Use it judiciously.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#49 writergroupie

writergroupie

    Mad for Moffat...

  • Demigod
  • 4,449 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:21 PM

Drew, on Apr 17 2003, 12:00 PM, said:

The term "hatemongering" is tossed about way too often, and shuts down the possibility of any sort of reasoned debate. Use it judiciously.
In three years in this community, this is the first time I've used it and I used it to say it's something I would not tolerate.  I did not use it as a personal attack.   I'd say that's judiciously.

Jill
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#50 Drew

Drew

    Josef K.

  • Islander
  • 12,191 posts

Posted 17 April 2003 - 10:31 PM

writergroupie, on Apr 17 2003, 02:05 PM, said:

In three years in this community, this is the first time I've used it and I used it to say it's something I would not tolerate.  I did not use it as a personal attack.   I'd say that's judiciously.
I say this more as a general statement rather than directing it at anyone in particular. It's a pet peeve.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#51 Kahoutek

Kahoutek

    Space Otter

  • Islander
  • 139 posts

Posted 18 April 2003 - 06:58 PM

I'm a little surprised that the "historians" amongst us have not pointed out a basic fact ...

History is a cruel teacher ... lessons are measured in centuries, not years.

To say that the Holocaust happened a whole 60 years ago is to ignore the power of history.  America's "Great Depression" still affects many aspects of our society; America's "Civil War" (oxymoron!!) taught lessons that we still hear about today.

Add to that the context for the Jewish experience (centuries of somewhat routine hate crimes, and paranoia), we should not be surprised that such a law suit was filed -- even decades later.  Other peoples of this planet earth have not been willing to declare their responsibilities.  [There may be some connection between this law suit and how the French deal with the middle east ... though I don't know enough to be sure.]

Besides, the western way is to sue the %#)$ out of anybody and everybody; fairness gives way to "what can I get out of this".

Kahoutek   :look:

#52 Taryn Wander'r

Taryn Wander'r

    scott pilgrim's precious little lover

  • Islander
  • 605 posts

Posted 18 April 2003 - 07:45 PM

Gonna stay out of the freedom of speech debate and just add my two cents about the original topic.


I think holocaust survivors should get compensation for what happened to them, and property should be returned to the survivors or their families. However, it makes no sense to me that they're asking for it from the French, when the current French administration had nothing to do with it. It was the Vichy administration which, if I am led to believe correctly, was part of the occupying Nazi force. It wouldn't make sense to sue Germany, either, because it is a different group of people in charge now. And, IMO, Germany has had a hard enough time getting rid of that legacy. I absolutely love Germany and visiting it there, but there still is a small vocal group of anti-semitism and it's very hard for normal German society to get past. Only in the few recent years have they started to fly German flags on public buildings- it's only natural to feel patriotic if you live in a country you love, but the lessons of crazy nationalism are still too fresh over there.

It's like the example with the Iraqis...it would make sense to me that, twenty years from now, the Iraqi people might want to sue the US or the UK for emotional damage caused by this war, or property that was destroyed, and so on and so forth...but if, twenty years from now, they tried to sue the US or the UK for the emotional and monetary damange that was inflicted by Saddam's regime, it just wouldn't make any sense. That's sort of how I see this. Yes, I think Holocaust survivors need compensation, but I really don't know where they're going to get it from. The sad fact is, a lot of Holocaust families are still broken up after all these 60 years, and some very precious family heirlooms were never returned...some are sitting in museums somewhere but it's now impossible to prove ownership, and some things are lost forever. It may not matter to the whole of humanity in the long run, but it's very important to these survivors and it's their right to get it back. I just think they're asking the wrong people.


And Ilphi...the blacks marching for slavery...I'm afraid you may have struck a nerve with me. I would appreciate a link to an article or something so I know exactly what you're talking about before I completely fly off the handle, but...

Even though it was 200 years ago, the effects of slavery *have* caused a hindrance for many of America's black population today. An entire race of people had their identity, culture, religion, and way of life stolen from them. When the slaves were freed they were left without an education, no real chances for a regular life in American society at the time, and nothing to fall back onto. It started the cycle of poverty that still exists today in many parts of America. Again, I don't think black people today could really get 'compensation' for the things that happened to their ancestors- the only thing I can think of would be the family companies that employed the most slaves, but I'm afraid I'm a bit uneducated about the existence of those anymore- but to say that most black people today are completely unaffected by the slavery and segregation that existed in the past is a bit of an overstatement. Sure, a lot of African-Americans have gone on to be very successful and in many parts of the country have the same opportunities as white kids...but there are also many parts of the country where racism still runs rampant and it's very hard for an African-American kid to get the opportunites that other kids in their region get very easily, and it's because of the long cycle of poverty, resentment, and racism that has come from slavery.

A person might forget, but a *people* never do. One of the driving factors of anti-semitism in certain groups is, if I am led to believe correctly, that the Jews were blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus. And how long ago was that? Take a look at the cultural baggage that still exists in parts of Africa- for instance, the persecution of whites in Zimbabwe. Also, much of Africa's third world debt that exists today was actually originally caused by the colonial administrations of the British, Portuguese, Dutch, etc...yet those countries today are still forced to pay back their phenomenal debt.

In short, I believe that Holocaust survivors should get compensation for what happened to them, but I think they're going about it the wrong way. But it would be worse: If the US somehow manages the situation in Iraq right and the Iraqi people actually do end up *not* hating them, they just might be able to avoid a generation of A-Q Junior knocking on their door in ten years time. And maybe we'll finally be able to start learning from history, instead of just resenting it.

#53 Enmar

Enmar

    a Sabra

  • Islander
  • 2,020 posts

Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:17 AM

Why only now?

You do not understand the people who are standing there, non of us can. After loosing everyone they had, after years of suffering, when the war was over, there was no one to take care of them. They immigrated to various places around the world (The British government in Israel wouldn’t let them in) and were lost and alone. Many hurried to create new families, trying to compensate for those who were lost. Others decided to dedicate their lives to hunt the Nazi criminals that escaped justice. Some went mad and live since than in hospitals. Most just lived life “in quiet desperation”.

When many of them came to Israel, after its independence in 1948, the tiny young country didn’t know how to handle them. People didn’t believe their stories. They believed the general story, they couldn’t grasp the horrifying details. And those born to a free, fighting country, couldn’t understand the state of mind they were in and kept asking: ”Why didn’t you fight?”


It took many years for the pride and the shame to die, replaced by reality. These people had hard lives, harder than any other example you can find. They live their lives hunted by memories and loss, and it is not easy to be second or even third generation to the survivors. Those people want to leave something to their children and they are only asking for what is rightfully theirs. In the 1950’s the concept of simply suing for your money didn’t work the same as it does these days. More than that, during the last 10 years archives are starting to open, due to 50 years obsolescence laws secret records are being reopened. So are former USSR records. Tracks of stolen properties, lost bank accounts, life insurances, all of them hidden in purpose, not by accident, are discovered. As some people already pointed out earlier in this thread, they are asking for their property back, not compensations.

Ancient history

This isn’t ancient history, just a lesson we didn’t learn good enough. You know, some stuff about all men born equal, not making generalizations, democracy not being the majority’s tool to hurt the minorities, etc.

Jill

Please don’t go, some old wise Chinese said, not long ago “Hate and ignorance needs to be confronted and not simply accepted”

Gode
Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.

#54 writergroupie

writergroupie

    Mad for Moffat...

  • Demigod
  • 4,449 posts

Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:58 AM

Enmar, on Apr 18 2003, 03:01 PM, said:

Jill

Please don’t go, some old wise Chinese said, not long ago “Hate and ignorance needs to be confronted and not simply accepted”
No worries, Enmar.  I'm still here.

A wise person told me "what you permit, you teach".  Which is why I confronted the statements above. :)

Jill
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#55 Shoshana

Shoshana
  • Islander
  • 4,031 posts

Posted 19 April 2003 - 02:22 AM

Throwing in my two cents...

I think it's entirely fair to pay compensation for money stolen by governments during WWII. Absolutely. If my grandparents had lost money in that situation, heck yeah I'd want to see them get it back. It's their money.

As far as the Vichy/Current government debate... since there isn't a Vichy government to go back to for responsibility, it's kinda difficult to get money back from it.

'shana



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: France, War reparations, Jews

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users