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Karl Rove named as source in Plame outting

Top News 2005 Valerie Plame Karl Rove Investigation

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#21 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 09:32 AM

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the people getting all riled up about it included some lies in conjunction with it, such as claiming that someone at the White House had been calling journalists to try to find someone who'd take it and that it was central to some big point the Republicans were trying to make a big deal out of

Nice try, but several reporters have already stated that someone in the White House shopped the story around to them.  That's why Cooper was on his way to jail and Miller still may be.

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Nobody. That's just what Norville turns EVERYTHING into.

:howling:  

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O, wad some pow'r the giftie gie us
T'see oursel's as ithers see us....


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the whole idea of deliberately "outing" a CIA agent can only be to get someone to do your assassinations for you,

Or to stop her work in its tracks, regardless of the consequences.  Now what was Plame's work?  Oh, yeah, tracking WMD--those WMD that were supposed to be "north, south, east and west of Baghdad."  The ones "we know exactly where they are" that can be delivered to American soil in "45 minutes." Those WMD.

Edited by waterpanther, 03 July 2005 - 09:37 AM.

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#22 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 09:38 AM

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Delvo: If you just look at what really happened instead of trying desperately to invent conspiracies, it's clear from how unimportant they thought it was and how casually it was treated and the fact that nobody really cared at first, that Novak and/or his source committed a crime of ignorance, negligence, incompetence, or other error, without thinking at first how serious it could be... in which case they need to be fined, fired, jailed, or whatever comes from such an error, and Democrats need to learn to quit discrediting themselves even when the facts are already on their side by going so far overboard with everything.

I agree. I doubt that Rove and Libby knew that Plame was a deep-cover operative (in WMD proliferation, no less) when they decided it would be a cool way to discredit Wilson by putting out the story that his wife was behind his trip to Niger. It was a way to counter Wilson's claim that Cheney's office was behind his investigative trip and therefore received his report of his findings that the Niger yellowcake charge was false. (And as it turns out, it was based on forged documents.) That was probably the real motive, that and tossing out info that the right-wing talk jocks could fashion into an attack on Wilson's significance and manliness--he was a rogue nobody who couldn't have gotten to Niger without his wife. So the table was set, but the problem was that they foolishly outted a deep-cover agent, placing everyone who worked with her CIA-created company and all her contacts in jeopardy. It was a big oops, one I find hard to believe that they did knowingly.

Still, because of Rove's detestable attack on post-9/11 "liberals"-- which pretty much backfired because it mainly gave everyone a reason to revisit those days and not only discover that Rove is a scummy, partisan prevaricator but that most liberals did indeed support the Afghanistan War--I confess to taking some pleasure in Rove's plight. As Lynn Cheney would say, "he's not a nice man." I'm sure that with the release of these documents, his lawyers are pouring over his grand jury testimony to make sure he didn't commit perjury. Karl's got to at least be chewing a few extra Tums these days. :)
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#23 MuseZack

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 10:44 AM

waterpanther, on Jul 3 2005, 02:32 PM, said:

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the people getting all riled up about it included some lies in conjunction with it, such as claiming that someone at the White House had been calling journalists to try to find someone who'd take it and that it was central to some big point the Republicans were trying to make a big deal out of

Nice try, but several reporters have already stated that someone in the White House shopped the story around to them.  That's why Cooper was on his way to jail and Miller still may be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I believe the exact quote you're looking for is from Hardball's Chris Matthews, to Joe Wilson: "Karl Rove just called me and told me your wife is fair game."
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#24 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 11:24 AM

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I believe the exact quote you're looking for is from Hardball's Chris Matthews, to Joe Wilson: "Karl Rove just called me and told me your wife is fair game."

That's confirmatory, but what I was referring to was the six reporters who were called with the information that Plame was undercover CIA.  Novak was the only one who printed it; Miller and Cooper held it back, and so did three others whose names I don't recall.  I think Rove's call to Matthews was more on the order of "It's out there; run with it."
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#25 Shalamar

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 11:27 AM

Please every one remember not to get personal in posts. It's about the topic, not other members of the board.
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#26 BklnScott

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 11:47 AM

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Spectacles:Rove's (and Scooter Libby's) defense will be that they knew she worked for the CIA but didn't know she was a deep-cover operative. Therefore, they didn't "knowingly" out her.

Ah, the old incompetence excuse.  Just how many times can they successfully fall back on that (e.g., the non-existence of those pesky WMDs)?  

Fool us twice...

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#27 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 12:01 PM

I think it behooves us to remember just how carefully these nasty little pieces of work parse their language.  Remember the defense of the yellowcake statement in the SOTU?  "Bush didn't say the Iraqis had fissile material; he merely reported that the Brits reported that the Iraqis had it; therefore GW did not lie." (Kinda throws the meaning of "is" into the shade.  Rank amateur stuff, Bill!)  Rove's lawyer says he did not disclose Plame's "identity."  He does not say that Rove did not disclose that she was a covert CIA agent--the reader/hearer is simply meant to assume that's what he meant.  This guy is trying to  keep Rove's fat pink @$$ out of jail; telling the truth is not in his interest or his client's.
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#28 Caretaker

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 12:46 PM

http://www.huffingto...-rove_3584.html

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If what I have reported is not true, if Karl Rove is not Matt Cooper’s source, Rove could prove that instantly by telling us what he told the grand jury. Nothing prevents him from doing that, except a good lawyer who is trying to keep him out of jail.


#29 eloisel

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 12:49 PM

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Norville stated:  See, that's what I assumed, that it's never acceptable to blow an agent's cover, but there were people here going on like "Why is it wrong? She and her husband are liberal, anyway, and it's so liberal to object to this." (Bending over backwards to excuse it was the idea, if not stated in precisely that manner.)

Eloisel asked:  Who is doing that?

Delvo responded:  Nobody. That's just what Norville turns EVERYTHING into.

Waterpanther further responded: 
I have no words, so I'll borrow Robert Burns':
O, wad some pow'r the giftie gie us
T'see oursel's as ithers see us....
Still doesn't answer the question.  Who are the "people here going on like 'Why is it wrong? She and her husband are liberal, anyway, and it's so liberal to object to this' "???????????

#30 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:01 PM

Seems to me the person to ask what Norville meant is--Norville.  Since she says "there were people here," past tense, one might infer that those people made such statements at the time Plame was outed.  Past tense might also indicate that those persons are not presently with us.
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#31 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:05 PM

Thanks, Caretaker. :)  I was on my way over here to post that link, too. It's an interesting take on Rove's lawyer's remarks.

This is what I'm curious about:

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On Friday, I broke the story that the e-mails that Time turned over to the prosecutor that day reveal that Karl Rove is the source Matt Cooper is protecting.

If any of those emails came from Rove and if Rove made any mention of Valerie Plame being Wilson's wife and a CIA operative, then Rove may be in trouble if he denied ever having divulged such information to Cooper.

One theory floated about in the blogs is that the prosecutor is pursuing perjury charges, possibly against Rove. The reasoning behind this is that since the prosecutor already knows the source(s) of the White House leak, thanks to Novak and probably Russert, he's shaking down Cooper and Miller for corroboration, something about perjury needing to have at least two different sources of evidence. With Novak and/or Russert, there may not be any written record to challenge Rove's testimony. With Cooper, there is now since Time released the documents.

So it looks like this is an effort to build a case about something. If it's hard to convict someone of willfully disclosing the identity of a CIA agent, maybe it's easier to go for perjury. Again, that depends on any discrepancy between what Rove told the Grand Jury and what the emails and other documents reveal.

Edited by Spectacles, 03 July 2005 - 01:06 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#32 eloisel

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:10 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 3 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

Seems to me the person to ask what Norville meant is--Norville.  Since she says "there were people here," past tense, one might infer that those people made such statements at the time Plame was outed.  Past tense might also indicate that those persons are not presently with us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did.

#33 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:20 PM

Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't see how one could "inadvertently" blow the cover of a CIA agent.  It apparently was common knowledge that Plame worked at/for the CIA--but so do any number of workaday bureaucrats.  Nothing there to "let slip."

To out her as a covert operative, though, someone would have to either say flat-out, "Plame is a deep-cover agent," or let something slip that would combine with something the hearer already knew to produce that conclusion.  Either way, someone knew something s/he had no business knowing.

And I think the whole matter has to go beyond petty revenge on Wilson.  After all, the attempt to portray him as an ineffective, p****-whipped wimp was no different to what the Republican slander machine had  tried with others. (At least they didn't claim Wilson "looked French" or had avowed himself  "metrosexual.")  

No, the people who could pull the rug out from under the Bush drive to war on the basis of WMD were the UN inspectors and, it would seem, Plame's network of operatives.  We know what happened with the inspectors; they were pulled out before they could make a final determination that Saddam had no such weapons.  We don't know what happened to Plame's operatives, but as many as ninety were apparently compromised.  It is very likely that some of them died.
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#34 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:36 PM

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Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't see how one could "inadvertently" blow the cover of a CIA agent. It apparently was common knowledge that Plame worked at/for the CIA--but so do any number of workaday bureaucrats. Nothing there to "let slip."

To out her as a covert operative, though, someone would have to either say flat-out, "Plame is a deep-cover agent," or let something slip that would combine with something the hearer already knew to produce that conclusion. Either way, someone knew something s/he had no business knowing.

I guess I'm recalling the defense that Novak launched after his column. He wrote  (and I don't have the column in front of me) that Plame was "a CIA operative" and he argued that he thought she was an analyst and therefore publishing her name was not going to blow her cover. I don't know that anyone wrote about her being deep cover until after Novak blew her cover by publishing her name.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#35 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 01:47 PM

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I guess I'm recalling the defense that Novak launched after his column. He wrote (and I don't have the column in front of me) that Plame was "a CIA operative" and he argued that he thought she was an analyst and therefore publishing her name was not going to blow her cover

Right you are.  As I recall, the key was that word "operative," which at least to most people does not mean "analyst."    I don't believe Novak is so disingenuous that doesn't know that.  

Saw a bit of interesting speculation by a lawyer member over on DU the other day to the effect that Novak's remaining mum because he took the fifth before the grand jury.  That seems likely.
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#36 eloisel

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 02:11 PM

CNN article, 10/1/03
Novak: 'No great crime' with leak

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"Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this," Novak said on "Crossfire." "There is no great crime here."

Novak said Monday that he was working on the column when a senior administration official told him the CIA asked Wilson to go to Niger in early 2002 at the suggestion of his wife, whom the source described as "a CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction."

Another senior administration official gave him the same information, Novak said, and the CIA confirmed her involvement in her husband's mission.

In his column, Novak attributed the information about Plame's involvement in Wilson's trip to Africa to two unnamed senior administration officials.

"They asked me not to use her name, but never indicated it would endanger her or anybody else. According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative and not in charge of undercover operators," Novak said.

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"Bob Novak called me before he went to print with the report and he said a CIA source had told him that my wife was an operative," Wilson said. "He was trying to get a second source. He couldn't get a second source. Could I confirm that? And I said no."

Wilson said he called Novak after the article appeared citing sources in the Bush administration.

"What was it, CIA or senior administration?" Wilson said he asked Novak. "He said to me, 'I misspoke the first time I spoke to you.' "

Valeria Plame - Wikipedia - Novak's Response

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In his October 1, 2003 article "The CIA Leak" Novak states this explanation for the two "senior administration officials" and the "CIA official" referenced in his June 14 article:

"During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife. It was an offhand revelation from this official, who is no partisan gunslinger. When I called another official for confirmation, he said: "Oh, you know about it." The published report that somebody in the White House failed to plant this story with six reporters and finally found me as a willing pawn is simply untrue.

At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission."

In other interviews Novak confirmed that his sources warned him not to use the name, advice he disregarded. His motivation is suggested by this comment in "The CIA Leak:" "I was curious why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council (NSC) was given this assignment."


#37 waterpanther

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 03:00 PM

Novak:  "I am not a crook!"

Methinketh it will lie with the grand jury and the prosecutor whether Novak has committed a crime, not with Novak himself.
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#38 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 03:06 PM

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wikipedia: At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission."

In other interviews Novak confirmed that his sources warned him not to use the name, advice he disregarded.

Wow. Novak's all over the place with this, isn't he? He was asked not to use her name but he wasn't but he was. :blink:
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#39 Spectacles

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 03:21 PM

Here's an old thread on this topic:



http://www.exisle.ne...wtopic=8010&hl=


Ack! And here's another, really acrimonious one that I could only skim. I agree with Shalamar that we don't need to go there. I post it only because it pertains to Norville's remarks about the nature of this discussion in the past:

http://www.exisle.ne...l=valerie plame


For the most part, this discussion has been civil. I hope we keep it that way. Yeah, I don't like Karl Rove and admit that any discomfort he may experience pleases me, but I'm not ready to convict him yet. I just started the thread because the blogs are smokin' on this, and I thought it might be interesting to see, as I said in the beginning, if this goes anywhere. This just broke on Friday and, this being a holiday weekend, it's not getting much coverage in the mainstream press, but it just might, so I thought people may be interested in following it. I didn't mean to reopen old wounds--didn't know they were there. Sorry about that.

And, as many have demonstrated on this thread, there is no need for this to be a partisan issue. Blowing a CIA agent's cover is not a good thing. Lying about it is also not a good thing. It remains to be seen how "knowingly" the former was done and how accurate a charge the latter is.

Edited by Spectacles, 03 July 2005 - 03:45 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#40 Norville

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 03:23 PM

...

Edited by Norville, 06 July 2005 - 06:08 PM.

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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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