127 replies to this topic

[Nonny]

G-man, on Jul 8 2005, 09:56 AM, said:

As for the biking accident ... well, I think I much prefer Bush on a mountain bike than a motor bike, otherwise someone could have really been hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boy howdy, you've convinced me!    I do not want to see how much damage he'd make on a motorcycle.    

Nonny

[eloisel]

Nonny, on Jul 8 2005, 03:28 PM, said:

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 07:09 AM, said:

The Dixie Chicks didn't criticize our troops.  Their lead singer, Natalie Maines, said to a London audience: "Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's how it happened as I remember it too.  

LORD of the SWORD, on Jul 8 2005, 07:11 AM, said:

Nonny, on Jul 8 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

Um, didn't they attack him in response to his attack on them?  As I recall, he took the first shot, then whined like a baby when they shot back.  And he took that shot, I'm guessing, because he's not familiar with the Bill of Rights, or at least not familiar enough. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Honestly, I don't know who fired the first shot. I just remember hearing about the Dixie Chicks attacking him...but this was after they spoke out against our troops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They never spoke out against any troops.  One of them spoke out against the lying cheating coward who the troops have, to their great misfortune, for their commander-in-chief.  

LORD of the SWORD, on Jul 8 2005, 07:11 AM, said:

What I find most amazing is that some people seem to think that just because they have a first amendment right to speak their minds, that there shouldn't be consequences for those comments. This is reality. You have the right to say what's on your mind...but if your comments offend others, don't be surprised to feel some reprecussions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These repercussions include a cynical attempt to end their music careers by spreading lies about the incident to make it seem as if they were criticizing anyone but the lying cheating coward one of them was criticizing.  I'm proud of them for facing up to the consequences of criticizing a powerful man with so many powerful friends ready willing and able to lie for him.  

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The above is the post I read.  My error for not backing up.

However, Natalie Maines attacked Toby Keith first.  Back in August 2002, Maines criticized Keith’s single "Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)." She said of the single, "I hate it. It’s ignorant."   The FUTK t-shirt came in May of 2003.  She made her remarks about being ashamed of the President being from Texas to the London audience in June 2003.

So, WHO spread lies about the incident to make it seem as the Dixie Chicks were criticizing anyone but President Bush?  And, exactly how did they do that when her statement was extremely clear about who she was criticizing?

If the tin foil hat fits, wear it.

[Nonny]

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 06:43 PM, said:

So, WHO spread lies about the incident to make it seem as the Dixie Chicks were criticizing anyone but President Bush?  And, exactly how did they do that when her statement was extremely clear about who she was criticizing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you clarify this, please?  

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 06:43 PM, said:

If the tin foil hat fits, wear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you back off on the insulting and dismissive, please?  

Nonny

[Balderdash]

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 10:43 PM, said:

Nonny, on Jul 8 2005, 03:28 PM, said:

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 07:09 AM, said:

The Dixie Chicks didn't criticize our troops.  Their lead singer, Natalie Maines, said to a London audience: "Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's how it happened as I remember it too.  

LORD of the SWORD, on Jul 8 2005, 07:11 AM, said:

Nonny, on Jul 8 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

Um, didn't they attack him in response to his attack on them?  As I recall, he took the first shot, then whined like a baby when they shot back.  And he took that shot, I'm guessing, because he's not familiar with the Bill of Rights, or at least not familiar enough. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Honestly, I don't know who fired the first shot. I just remember hearing about the Dixie Chicks attacking him...but this was after they spoke out against our troops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They never spoke out against any troops.  One of them spoke out against the lying cheating coward who the troops have, to their great misfortune, for their commander-in-chief.  

LORD of the SWORD, on Jul 8 2005, 07:11 AM, said:

What I find most amazing is that some people seem to think that just because they have a first amendment right to speak their minds, that there shouldn't be consequences for those comments. This is reality. You have the right to say what's on your mind...but if your comments offend others, don't be surprised to feel some reprecussions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These repercussions include a cynical attempt to end their music careers by spreading lies about the incident to make it seem as if they were criticizing anyone but the lying cheating coward one of them was criticizing.  I'm proud of them for facing up to the consequences of criticizing a powerful man with so many powerful friends ready willing and able to lie for him.  

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The above is the post I read.  My error for not backing up.

However, Natalie Maines attacked Toby Keith first.  Back in August 2002, Maines criticized Keith’s single "Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)." She said of the single, "I hate it. It’s ignorant."   The FUTK t-shirt came in May of 2003.  She made her remarks about being ashamed of the President being from Texas to the London audience in June 2003.

So, WHO spread lies about the incident to make it seem as the Dixie Chicks were criticizing anyone but President Bush?  And, exactly how did they do that when her statement was extremely clear about who she was criticizing?

If the tin foil hat fits, wear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow.  You clearly went after Nonny because you thought she was dissing Bush and rather than apologize for your uncalled for rant and the tinfoil comment you boldly bluster on.  I'm sure I'll get a PM for this but that's cool as long as you get one too.  

[CJ AEGIS]

Moderator’s Helmet On  I’d like to caution everyone to consider what they are saying.  Keep the conversation on the topic and off of each other.  Moderator’s Helmet Off

[eloisel]

Nonny said:

eloisel said:

So, WHO spread lies about the incident to make it seem as the Dixie Chicks were criticizing anyone but President Bush?  And, exactly how did they do that when her statement was extremely clear about who she was criticizing?

Could you clarify this, please?

Nonny said:

Post #27
These repercussions include a cynical attempt to end their music careers by spreading lies about the incident to make it seem as if they were criticizing anyone but the lying cheating coward one of them was criticizing. I'm proud of them for facing up to the consequences of criticizing a powerful man with so many powerful friends ready willing and able to lie for him.

So, I'll repeat.

eloisel said:

So, WHO spread lies about the incident to make it seem as the Dixie Chicks were criticizing anyone but President Bush?  And, exactly how did they do that when her statement was extremely clear about who she was criticizing?

  

Nonny said:

eloisel said:

If the tin foil hat fits, wear it.

Could you back off on the insulting and dismissive, please?

I can.  Quit insulting my President and I will.

[Enkanowen]

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 11:27 PM, said:

I can.  Quit insulting my President and I will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think there is any need to insult President Bush to make a point come across.... just let him open his mouth and listen...

[eloisel]

Enkanowen, on Jul 9 2005, 04:06 AM, said:

eloisel, on Jul 8 2005, 11:27 PM, said:

I can.  Quit insulting my President and I will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think there is any need to insult President Bush to make a point come across.... just let him open his mouth and listen...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps someone should teach him not to say anything unless it is sarcastic.  Then he'd be considered intelligent and witty.

[Jid]

Oy.  Only in OT, could a piece of fluff news about the President skidding out on a patch of wet pavement turn into a screamfest about who called who, what.

Personally, the article brings me hope of future headlines.  Headlines such as:

"Tony Blair giggles at inappropriate time during G8 summit.  Naptime priveledges revoked."

"Kerry Pancake Breakfast Draws Heat - Same old flip-flopping, critics say"

"Martha Stewart releases festive ankle monitor bracelet covers, just in time for the holidays"

"Bush loses key hipster vote by wearing white after labour day."

and, divine willing:

"Bush and Kerry hug, form WWE tagteam on live TV.  Mass casualties as extremists from both sides' heads explode."

[waterpanther]

Quote

I can. Quit insulting my President and I will.

How do you insult a sociopath?

[eloisel]

waterpanther, on Jul 9 2005, 04:22 AM, said:

Quote

I can. Quit insulting my President and I will.

How do you insult a sociopath?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know.  How do you?

[Balderdash]

"Martha Stewart releases festive ankle monitor bracelet covers, just in time for the holidays"

[waterpanther]

Quote

I don't know. How do you?

Apparently you know how it's done.  You're accusing Nonny of doing just that.

[eloisel]

waterpanther, on Jul 9 2005, 04:52 AM, said:

Quote

I don't know. How do you?

Apparently you know how it's done.  You're accusing Nonny of doing just that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your question was:
How do you insult a sociopath?

You don't think calling the President a lying cheating coward is an insult?

[Julianus]

Jid, on Jul 9 2005, 04:22 AM, said:

Oy.  Only in OT, could a piece of fluff news about the President skidding out on a patch of wet pavement turn into a screamfest about who called who, what.

Personally, the article brings me hope of future headlines.  Headlines such as:

"Tony Blair giggles at inappropriate time during G8 summit.  Naptime priveledges revoked."

"Kerry Pancake Breakfast Draws Heat - Same old flip-flopping, critics say"

"Martha Stewart releases festive ankle monitor bracelet covers, just in time for the holidays"

"Bush loses key hipster vote by wearing white after labour day."

and, divine willing:

"Bush and Kerry hug, form WWE tagteam on live TV.  Mass casualties as extremists from both sides' heads explode."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ROTFLOL! Round of applause for Jid.

[Shalamar]

I am not a mod in this forum. And I am speaking just as a board member, but an exasperated board member

I am asking every one in here to please keep the thread on topic and the topic is not the Dixie Chicks, or which musician insulted who first, or what exactly they said, or who likes/dislike or agrees with their music or disagrees with their music.

And Waterpanter, Nonny, et al.. You are certainly welcome to have your opinions of the president...but you know your continued abuse and virtol at him are getting quite tiresome. If Kerry had won and people were speaking of him the same way you are of Bush, I have no doubt but that we'd be hearing you all complaining.

We know how you think/ feel etc abpout him, so just lay off, we don't need our noses rubbed in it.

Just a board member tired of the beating a dead vedran syndrome going on here.

[Shalamar]

so exasperated I apparently double posted, apologies

Edited by Shalamar, 09 July 2005 - 12:56 AM.

[Spectacles]

Quote

Shalamar: I am asking every one in here to please keep the thread on topic and the topic is not the Dixie Chicks, or which musician insulted who first, or what exactly they said, or who likes/dislike or agrees with their music or disagrees with their music.

Shal, staying on topic isn't in the guidlelines. Threads drift here and there all the time. So, respectfully, I think the issue here isn't staying on topic but on the tone of the debate.

Quote

And Waterpanter, Nonny, et al.. You are certainly welcome to have your opinions of the president...but you know your continued abuse and virtol at him are getting quite tiresome. If Kerry had won and people were speaking of him the same way you are of Bush, I have no doubt but that we'd be hearing you all complaining.

We know how you think/ feel etc abpout him, so just lay off, we don't need our noses rubbed in it.

Had Eloisel objected to Nonny's calling Bush "lying" and "cheating," defending her objection would make sense to me. Those are fightin' words, as is "sociopath." Had she asked Nonny to back up those charges or edit, that would make sense. But what she did was allege that Nonny said Bush attacked the Dixie Chicks first--which is not what Nonny said. That's what she asked Nonny to "prove or retract."

Quote

Eloisel: You know what - that is a load of made up crap.

The President didn't attack them first. They made their comments. When asked, he didn't slam them. He showed far more grace than people who can't tell a truth but instead just make smart alec remarks to justify their own inability to do anything but hate.

Edited to Add:

Either show proof or retract your statements that the President had nothing better to do than seek out and attack three country and western performers who had done nothing to him but sing! Geezus ... take the tin foil off your head and let your brain breath.

After several people pointed out that Eloisel had misinterpreted Nonny's post, that Nonny was referring to Keith and not Bush, rather than issuing a more appropriate "nevermind," Eloisel said she was angry about Nonny's earlier characterization of Bush as "lying" and "cheating" and plowed ahead.

I understand that some people still support Bush, still think he's a fine president, and naturally take offense when others criticize him. I think that objecting to what they consider to be unfair criticisms is natural and right--as it should be for anyone. But I also think that when we misinterpret one another and blow a gasket over something we think someone said rather than what they actually said, then it's best to acknowledge our error. Eloisel is carrying on as though her attack on Nonny was appropriate because Nonny had said something else that Eloisel didn't appreciate.

Sadly, if we're going to have moderator defense, official or otherwise, for placing tinfoil hats on other posters for things they didn't say, I'm afraid we can expect the tone of discussion around here to deteriorate even further.

Edited by Spectacles, 09 July 2005 - 07:10 AM.

[Zwolf]

My problem with Toby's lyrics isn't that they're non-P.C.   I don't give a damn 'bout P.C. anything.  I listen to GG Allin for chrissake!     I just thought Toby's lyrics were lame, dumb, and... well, kinda latent.  

Anyway, I think Toby's an overcompensating puss, but that's just my opinion.  I just know too many guys just like him.  Got no time to listen to overindulgent loudmouths in cowboy hats bragging about how much they can drink while they steal other people's lyrics with no credit and make a career boost out of tragedy and fraud.   That's my problem with him... ain't got a thing to do with political correctness.

Anyway, speaking of musicians (I think it's safe to say that this is no longer off topic since there's 'bout as much talk of musicians on this thread as anything else... I'm perfectly willing to put up a new thread, but somebody'd be ticked off with that, too, so, eh, I think I'll play my don't-give-a-damn card at this point), I have something along those lines, and this, in my eyes, is what supporting the troops is really about.

There's a Boston punk band called The Dropkick Murphys.   They're a mix of (non-Nazi) skinhead Oi stuff and a lot of Celtic music influences.  You'll find them on the "Rock Against Bush, Vol. 2" benefit CD, among other places.   Anyway, they were writing a song based on some correspondence they'd been doing with soldiers serving in Iraq, when they got a letter from one soldier's wife.  She said that he was a big fan of the Dropkicks, and he'd told his mother in a letter that if he ever died, he wanted one of their songs, "The Fields of Anthenry" played at his funeral.   He'd also planned to come home and renew his vows with his wife to another of their songs, "Forever."   Then he was killed on his 31st birthday, as he was due to come home.  The Dropkick Murphys went to his funeral (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is something our president still has yet to do for any of our servicemen), and they played "Fields of Anthenry" as his casket was entering the church, just as he'd wanted... although I'm sure they'd've much rather played "Forever" at his vow-renewal ceremony.   And they wrote a song about him, and other soldiers.   Sgt. Farrar leaves behind a wife and two sons, Tyler and Liam.

Here are two songs that meant something to him, and one that would've, which was re-written to incorporate parts of his letters.

Last Letter Home

Hello there my dearest love
Today I write to you about our sons
The boys start school today
They're the spitting image of you in every way

Hey, son, it's Dad
I hope this letter finds you well, out of harm's way
We saw the news today, it frightened your Mom
Now all she does is pray.

If I lead, will you follow?
Will you follow if I lead?

Hey, Melissa, it's me, don't be afraid
I'm in good hands, I'm gonna be home soon
It's time to watch the children grow up
I wanna be more than a voice on the phone

Thanks, Ma, I got your package today
I love "The Fields of Athenry"
I swear I want 'em to play that song on the pipes
At my funeral when I die

If I lead, will you follow?
Will you follow if I lead?

I stand alone in the distance
And the foreground slowly moves

If I lead, will you follow?
Will you follow if I lead?

"We regret to inform you that on January 28th Sgt. Andrew Farrar died while serving his country in the Al-Anbar province of Iraq.   Words cannot convey our sorrow."

If I lead, will you follow?
Will you follow if I lead?

When there's nothing on the horizon
You've got nothing left to prove

If I lead, will you follow?


The Fields of Athenry

By a lonely prison wall
I heard a young girl calling
"Michael, they have taken you away
For you stole Trevelyn's corn
So the young might see the morn
Now a prison ship lies waiting in the bay."

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing, we had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely 'round the Fields of Athenry

By a lonely prison wall
I heard a young man calling
"Nothing matters, Mary, when you're free
Against the famine and the crown
I rebelled, they cut me down
Now you must raise our child with dignity."

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing, we had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.

By a lonely harbor wall
She watched the last star falling
As that prison ship sailed out against the sky
Sure she'll wait and hope and pray
For her love in Botany Bay
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.
It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry.


Forever

Never take your loved ones for granted
They could be gone tomorrow
All of my dreams seem to fall by the side
Like a discarded thought or the day's fading light
But I know that if I could just see you tonight
Forever
At times we may fall, like we all tend to do
But I'll reach out and find that I've run into you
Your strength is the power that carried me through
Forever

Your kindness for weakness I never mistook
I worried you often, yet you understood
That life is so fleeting, these troubles won't last
Forever
Inspired me truly, you did from the start
To not be afraid and to follow my heart
There's a piece of you with me they can't tear apart
Forever

At times we may fall, like we all tend to do
Your strength is the power that carries me through
Forever

Forever I'll find you, forever we'll be
Forever your power and strength stays with me
Forever I'll find you, forever we'll be
Forever your power and strength stays with me."


And this Dropkick Murphys song wasn't mentioned in the letter, but it's an older song, written back in 1997.   There's no liner note that says so, but it's gotta be about the first Gulf War... so they've been at this a long time.

Far Away Coast

Here in the trenches, the fist of the beast
For fear of an atmosphere, poisoned, deceased
With a gas mask to keep  me from breathing my death
It's American soil I hope for at best
But the duty I serve can't begin to compare
To my ancestors' battles and wars through the years
Though the loneliness strikes like an enemy shell
I pray for my home but still sit here in hell

Sail away to a place that's unknown
Taken away from my friends and my home
To a place they call sacred
A place I call hell
I long for that corner I once knew so well

Go to the grind, it's all that I have
Work on and on with nothing to show
But a graying face in this dying place
That's a lock on my solitude
I think of a place on a faraway coast
Where friends are so dear and there's reason to toast
Cloudy dark images of a Middle East land
Comes down and wrecks my hopeful thoughts

Sail away to a place that's unknown
Taken away from my friends and my home
To a place they call sacred
A place I call hell
I long for that corner I once knew so well."

I bet every soldier'd recognize those lyrics, even if they never heard the song...

Cheers,

Zwolf

[Nonny]

Quote

There's a Boston punk band called The Dropkick Murphys. They're a mix of (non-Nazi) skinhead Oi stuff and a lot of Celtic music influences. You'll find them on the "Rock Against Bush, Vol. 2" benefit CD, among other places. Anyway, they were writing a song based on some correspondence they'd been doing with soldiers serving in Iraq, when they got a letter from one soldier's wife. She said that he was a big fan of the Dropkicks, and he'd told his mother in a letter that if he ever died, he wanted one of their songs, "The Fields of Anthenry" played at his funeral. He'd also planned to come home and renew his vows with his wife to another of their songs, "Forever." Then he was killed on his 31st birthday, as he was due to come home. The Dropkick Murphys went to his funeral (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is something our president still has yet to do for any of our servicemen), and they played "Fields of Anthenry" as his casket was entering the church, just as he'd wanted... although I'm sure they'd've much rather played "Forever" at his vow-renewal ceremony. And they wrote a song about him, and other soldiers. Sgt. Farrar leaves behind a wife and two sons, Tyler and Liam.

I have tears streaming down my face as I read this.  I am proud to be a fan of the Dropkick Murphys.  I hadn't heard about this, and it makes me want to emerge from my usual crowd avoidance and go see them the next time they're in San Diego.  

I wish it could have been "Forever" that they'd been playing for him too.  

Nonny