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US hawks want to punish France (hot topic!)

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 03:14 AM

Big mistake Gordon.  Very big mistake.

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BAsically the whole thread is not about why the government is being unfriendsly towards France it is a deliberate smack at the administration by folks who would prefer that Saddam had remained in power.

This is b*llsh*t on so many levels I don't know where to start.  First, maybe if you bothered READING the article instead of acting like a bigoted, narrowminded redneck jerk you would see that the article is about what SOME people in the US government think.  The article itself talks about how OTHERS in the US government think the idea of retaliation is stupid.  So, no it is NOT about why the government is being unfriendly to France.  It's about an article in which some people advocate RETALIATION against France.  

Second, you have no idea what motivated the French government.  What are you clairvoyant?  The French opposed this war.  That doesn't mean they wanted Hussein in power it just means they thought the US had no legitimate grounds to start this war.  I agree with them one hundred percent.  But you, you seem unable, despite repeated attempts people have made to explain the concept to you, to accept the relatively SIMPLE notion that being against the WAR does not equate to being FOR Hussain.  



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Dislike that I think France would back a mass killer over doing something to stop him. They did it in their own country under occupation. they did it to Algeria but that wa them being the killers. Then they backed Molosvitch(sp) in his ethnic cleansing by refusing to send either troops or aid.

And the United States gave Saddam weapons during the Iran conflict.  Then they turned around and got in bed with Iran.  Yes yes, politics is dirty.  You seem to think that the US is some kind of Lily Pure White Knight.  Well you're wrong.

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France has been a blowhard since the end of the first world war yet still demand s to be treated like it worth respect.

All right we get it.  You hate France.  You're entitled.  

I don't feel too kindly disposed towards narrow minded bigots.

Smoke on THAT for a bit.

:angry:
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#22 Lover of Purple

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 03:15 AM

Okay, Everyone let's calm down a bit here. If you can't post and be civil, take a break.  Calling names (even of a nationality) is not acceptable in my opinion so let's not have any of that. I don't see this as a bash America thread...yet, and I'm conservative. So, everyone keep it civil

'nuff said

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#23 The One

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 04:53 AM

It is just insane to even think 'punish France' never mind actually say it, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it seems disagree with America and you're in for it.

Taking Saddam out of power is great, the day the news hits that he is dead I will actually say "about time" because of what he has done.   I was one of those who didn't agree with the war before and even after it had started because of how America went about it and I still don't.   I'll never agree with how they went about it but if a few years down the line things are good and going smootly then at least we can look back and go it was worth it...I hope it'll be the case.

#24 Kevin Street

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 05:08 AM

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"I think France is going to pay some consequences, not just with us, but with other countries who view it that way," Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz told the senate last week.

Pentagon adviser Richard Perle told the International Herald Tribune that the crisis in relations was not something that could be dealt with in the "normal diplomatic way" because anti-French feeling now ran very deep in US society.

So Wolfowitz and Perle are experts on foreign affairs now? Oy vey... :rolleyes:

Just concentrate on shredding all those incriminating documents, boys. Leave the complicated stuff to the State Department.
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#25 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 05:50 AM

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Lil:Second, you have no idea what motivated the French government. What are you clairvoyant? The French opposed this war. That doesn't mean they wanted Hussein in power it just means they thought the US had no legitimate grounds to start this war.

That one is easy Lil and France’s goal was less than pure.  A bid to oppose the US, gain more prestige for France, and further Franco-German domination of the EU.  Chirac saw this as the perfect opportunity to spit the US and play up France as an international power the leader of Europe.  Except he went too far    

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'Bad Herr Dye': New York Times
By WILLIAM SAFIRE (NYT)
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 25 , Column 1 

In its wake came the second Schröder triumph, his recent spinaround of Jacques Chirac of France. Chirac had made a deal with the U.S. last fall: we agreed to postpone the invasion of Iraq until after U.N. inspectors had been jerked around long enough to satisfy the world street's opinion, and in return France would not demand a second U.N. resolution before allied forces overthrew Saddam.

As D-Day approached, France sent its aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to the coming war zone. Chirac made plain that, though a minor and reluctant participant in the attack, France was not to be frozen out of postwar oil arrangements.

Then Schröder, reliant on his militantly antiwar Greens, made Chirac an offer he could not refuse: to permanently assert Franco-German dominance over the 23 other nations of Continental Europe.
In a stunning power play in Brussels, Germany and France moved to change the practice of having a rotating presidency of the European Council, which now gives smaller nations influence, to a system with a long-term president. This Franco-German czar of the European Union would dominate a toothless president of the European Commission, chosen by the European Parliament.

Little guys of Europe hollered bloody murder this week, but will find it hard to resist the Franco-German steamroller. France then had to repay Schröder by double-crossing the U.S. at the U.N. That explains France's startling threat to veto a new U.N. resolution O.K.'ing the invasion of Iraq — a second resolution that France had promised Colin Powell would not be needed.

That all said subtlety is lost on these people.  One doesn’t bash out their brains as soon as you get the club to do it.  Rather you politely twist France’s tail and let them shift around uncomfortably a bit.  The club can be stored away for another day and another time.  

In fact I think it is about time for Chirac to issue some apologies to our Eastern European allies for him calling them “infantile” and that they should shut up.  I’d be more than willing to let France invest in Iraq once some guidelines are setup for those investments.  Maybe while they are at it Chirac can launch an investigation how French companies violated UN sanctions in relation to Iraq.
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#26 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 05:56 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Apr 18 2003, 03:34 AM, said:

That one is easy Lil and France’s goal was less than pure.  A bid to oppose the US, gain more prestige for France, and further Franco-German domination of the EU.  Chirac saw this as the perfect opportunity to spit the US and play up France as an international power the leader of Europe.  Except he went too far   
I'm not CLAIMING that France's motives were pure.  Neither were Bush's.  Politics is dirty.

My objection (in terms of the article linked to, leaving aside G's patently bigoted comments) is to the patently UN AMERICAN sentiment expressed by the lame brains who favor punishing someone for daring to disagree with the big bad U S of Freaking A.  Those people do nothing but bolster the image of the US as an international bully.

How very.....Democratic.

:barf:

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 18 April 2003 - 05:58 AM.

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#27 the 'Hawk

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 05:59 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 17 2003, 10:40 PM, said:

Politics is dirty.
"Untidy" would be the word..

*runs for cover*
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#28 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 06:02 AM

the'Hawk, on Apr 18 2003, 03:43 AM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 17 2003, 10:40 PM, said:

Politics is dirty.
"Untidy" would be the word..

*runs for cover*
LOL!

Touche!

But you're still getting smited.:p

***POINT SINGULARITY SMITE***

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#29 Norville

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 06:15 AM

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I guess this is a kick america thread.

G, could you stop it? You've expressed anger over people bashing Christians. What do you do? You bash the French at every opportunity. Could we have some communication that goes beyond knee-jerk kick-something?

What is it, if you get called on smearing some entire group, you say it's a "kick America" thread?

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Dislike that I think France would back a mass killer over doing something to stop him. They did it in their own country under occupation. they did it to Algeria

Oh, *only* France has done terrible things to keep control over a colonial power or to suppress a native population? Tell me, if you know, what did the US do to the Indians? What did the Australians do to the aborigines? What do Iraq and Turkey (and probably others) do to the Kurds? The list goes on and on. No one's *innocent*. No one's *pure*.

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Lil: Politics is dirty.

Hawk: "Untidy" would be the word..
*runs for cover*

Lil: LOL!
Touche!
But you're still getting smited. :p

May I join you in smiting? :lol:
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#30 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 06:18 AM

Norville, on Apr 18 2003, 03:59 AM, said:

May I join you in smiting? :lol:
By all means!

:D

Lil
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#31 Norville

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:49 AM

Something else I wanted to add is this:

France tends to be very careful about offending its huge Islamic population these days. I'm sure that's one reason they chose not to back this war.

I just know that this is going to bring on a "Nice company you keep!" sort of comment, but I know a French woman who teaches French (my mother studies French with her); she has French attitude, but is also great fun to talk to, because she's exuberant. I also know a woman who's part French and part Syrian (also part Spanish), which is a scary place to be right about now; her mother tells her to "Say you're Italian!" I also know her through my mother, since she's Mom's physical therapist.

Where am I going with that? I don't even know, except maybe to point out that the eeeevil French are human, too. I guess my major problem is the propaganda concept of demonizing an entire group of people just because I'm told to hate them. I think like the "alien" outcast I was in all my school years, and always wonder just why people are quite so hungry for an enemy to hate all the time.

I could bash Kuwait quite a lot, but will just ask "We fought for these people in 1991?" (Read about that place and wonder why. It could only have been the oil; they sure didn't know anything about freedom *before* Iraq invaded them, either.) Also, I'll say that my father got an invitation to work in Kuwait years before 1991 and turned it down, partly because the women in his family (Mom, my sister, me) refused to go there! :wideeyed:
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
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Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
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Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#32 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:53 AM

Well said.

How annoying is it to see that people want to equate the entire American population with the policies of its government?

Why is it okay to do that to the French?

Lil
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#33 Nikcara

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 02:50 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2003, 10:37 PM, said:

How annoying is it to see that people want to equate the entire American population with the policies of its government?

Why is it okay to do that to the French?

Lil
I think because an unfortunate number of people want things to be simple.  I also think that if people traveled more they would drop the attitudes, but many people don't have the money to do that.
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#34 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 02:54 AM

Nikcara, on Apr 19 2003, 12:34 AM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 18 2003, 10:37 PM, said:

How annoying is it to see that people want to equate the entire American population with the policies of its government?

Why is it okay to do that to the French?

Lil
I think because an unfortunate number of people want things to be simple.  I also think that if people traveled more they would drop the attitudes, but many people don't have the money to do that.
I absolutely agree about the travel.

I think EVERY American should be required (subsidized if necessary) to spend a minimum of six weeks abroad, preferably when they're young adults.

It's amazing the effect this can have on the backyard attitude.
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#35 Nikcara

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 03:03 AM

I think at the very least all politicans should be made to travel abroad a lot (and I don't mean on business - I mean actually getting to know the COUNTRY).  I imagine it would be a lot harder to talk about how France should be punished after wandering through the country-side, talking to some actual people from there and knowing the situation they're in, and just wandering around places like Paris.  Getting a feel for the country instead of other politicans.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#36 Aurelius

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 09:09 PM

I find the idea of punishing another country, just because they disagreed with you absolutely pathetic. It's petty and below the U.S. Those suggesting it should be ashamed....what are they trying to do, promote the idea of America as a bully boy. That's utterly disgraceful, because America is, or should be much better than that.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not lauding America in everything it does...in fact I disagree with the current administration in a lot of things, but at the same time, I'm not equating America and all its citizens with the small amount of bigots and bullies that want to exact revenge.

G1223, I find your comments amazing and extremely hypocritical, considering your stance on MichaelHinman's threads about Christians. Telling him off for doing what he did and then coming around and doing the exact same. Excuse me, but practice what you preach, or say nothing at all.

I'm heartened to see that so many of the Americans here feel the same way about the news as I do...it says a lot for ye, people. Well done.

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#37 Guest-AleisterCrowley-Guest

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Posted 20 April 2003 - 10:38 AM

"POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."  The Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce


An aside: many would think that the term "redneck" is as derogatory as "frog" or the N-word.  Name calling in a civilized discussion smacks of bad manners.



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