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Clinton aims to make dream real

Early Dream Act Senator Clinton Politics 2008 Election

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#1 eloisel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 08:21 PM

Senator wants to see law passed to legalize status of illegal immigrant high school grads.
Courting the Hispanic vote for 2008.

Is there another country on this planet that I can move to illegally and their gov't pay for me to go to college?

#2 sierraleone

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 08:35 PM

I figure most highschool students didn't have much choice in being illegal immigrants.... I'm sort of wishy washy on it, I suppose someone could see it as rewarding the parents, as with their close family and family values, a good portion of the kids are going to support their parents once they get themselves well set.

I didn't even know illegal minor immigrants could be a elementary or highschool education though... they don't have to be citizens to get a primary education? Some people might disagree with that too.

Though, if this was made law, some adult illegal immigrants take advantage of this, attend an adult learning school to get their highschool eviqulancy, and get citizenship?
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#3 Anastashia

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 08:43 PM

sierraleone, on Jul 19 2005, 09:35 PM, said:

I figure most highschool students didn't have much choice in being illegal immigrants.... I'm sort of wishy washy on it, I suppose someone could see it as rewarding the parents, as with their close family and family values, a good portion of the kids are going to support their parents once they get themselves well set.

I didn't even know illegal minor immigrants could be a elementary or highschool education though... they don't have to be citizens to get a primary education? Some people might disagree with that too.

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Yes there are a number of things that illegals can get that make no sense to me.
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#4 eloisel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 09:00 PM

sierraleone, on Jul 20 2005, 01:35 AM, said:

I figure most highschool students didn't have much choice in being illegal immigrants.... I'm sort of wishy washy on it, I suppose someone could see it as rewarding the parents, as with their close family and family values, a good portion of the kids are going to support their parents once they get themselves well set.

I didn't even know illegal minor immigrants could be a elementary or highschool education though... they don't have to be citizens to get a primary education? Some people might disagree with that too.

Though, if this was made law, some adult illegal immigrants take advantage of this, attend an adult learning school to get their highschool eviqulancy, and get citizenship?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are probably right about the students not having a choice on being illegal immigrants.  My problem isn't in educating them.  My problem is that we don't put the needs of the legal citizens first.  

I've considered retiring in Belize.  To do that, though, I have to prove to their gov't that I have a source of income indepedent of any funds from or earned in Belize.  The policy in the country is "Belizeans first."  I agree with their policy.  A country should take care of its own people first.

Instead of overlooking the illegality of an illegal aliens entry into the country, perhaps we should be looking at the immigration policies.  Why are these illegal aliens illegal in the first place?  Why couldn't they come to this country legally?  Maybe there is a good reason why they shouldn't be here that educating their children isn't going to fix.

#5 Ogami

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 09:03 PM

The word illegal still means illegal, does it not?

Well, Hillary had Bill pardon a bunch of guilty, convicted terrorists from Puerto Rico before he left office, so this tracks.

The Clintons see nothing wrong with illegal behavior, why not legalize crime for everyone else, too?


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#6 Cheile

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:05 PM

oy....illegals get enough free rides in this country.  they don't deserve diplomas and degrees too.

then again i live in a state that's one of the worst offenders for letting them get away with crap.

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#7 Themis

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:27 PM

US citizens should come first when money is spent.  But - if these kids have managed to graduate high school, they have an education and have the potential to become productive citizens.  At least they must speak English.  I suppose they're not old enough to directly apply for citizenship.  Just on a very quick reading, I don't see how this would cost anything beyond the paperwork.  They don't get degrees and diplomas without working for them.  If half of native-born Tennesseans can't be bothered to graduate high school, I say help those with the initiative find their way to jobs that require an education.  Then they'll earn enough to pay their own way.  If they can't get beyond high school, they're more likely to end up still illegal and managing to get money for welfare and healthcare.  Of course I'd make actually being accepted into college a criteria for the program!

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#8 Nonprofit

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:41 PM

Oh sure,  thats the way the Democrats now choose to build thieir voting base.

This is not meant to offend anyone, if you think you night be,  stop reading now.

Just try doing this.

Enter Mexico illegally.  Never mind immigration quotas, visas,
international law, or any of that nonsense.  Once there,

1. Demand that the local government provide free medical care for you
and your entire family.
        
2. Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.

3. Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc.

4. Procreate abundantly.

5. Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive
behavior with, "It is a cultural United States thing.  You would
not understand, pal."

6. Keep your American identity strong.  Fly Old Glory from your rooftop,
or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.

7. Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your
children do likewise.
        
8. Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.

9. Demand a local Mexican driver license.  This will afford other legal
rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in
Mexico.

10. Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its
officers.

11. Have a traffic accident without liability  insurance.

Good luck!  You'll be demanding for the rest of time or soon be dead.
Because it will never happen....  It will not happen in Mexico or any other
country in the world...Except right here...  in the USA  The Land of the naive.
Thanks to liberal Americans !!!


RuReddy

Edited by RuReddy1, 19 July 2005 - 10:42 PM.


#9 Ogami

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:44 PM

To add to what RuReddy posted... One of news networks featured tonight on how much it will cost for hospitals to spend hiring translators to avoid lawsuits by patients who come in and don't speak the language.

If an American were vacationing in France, and were rushed to the hospital, it might be unfortunate if that person could not be understood. But we'd hardly sue another country for not speaking our foreign language.

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#10 eloisel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:50 PM

I heard a claim on the radio today that this La Raza group wants four states segregated and put under Mexican authority.  I can find nothing to verify this.  Does anyone know anything about this La Raza group?

#11 Ogami

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:53 PM

The term means "The Race".

I always chuckle when I see pro wrestler Eddie Guerrero say "Viva La Raza". If a white person walked around saying "Up with the White Race", he'd get an entirely different reaction. :p

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#12 eloisel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:59 PM

Hmmm... Hmmm.....  My bologna has a first name.

I find it very difficult to love it when I can't get verification on something I might need to be interested in.  I do not want to wake up one morning to discover my country moved out from underneath me during the night.

It reminds me of that Aryan Nation group back in the 80's.  They wanted 4 or 5 states segregated for whites only.

Edited by eloisel, 19 July 2005 - 11:04 PM.


#13 eloisel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:12 PM

liberate Aztlan
Ah, ha ... found something.  I think maybe the guy on the radio got the National Council of La Raza mixed up with other groups such as MEChA, The Brown Berets de Aztlan, OLA (Organization for the Liberation of Aztlan), La Raza Unida Party, and the "Nation of Aztlan."  Those groups do want to "repatriate" with Mexico eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington.  From what I can find on the NCLR, they are advocates for Americans of Hispanic descent which is not the same thing as illegal aliens.

#14 waterpanther

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:29 PM

"Hispanic" is an ethnicity, not a race.  Hispanics can be, and are, white, black, Native American, Asian and any and all combinations of the foregoing.  "La raza," in context, is much closer in meaning to "The people" than it is to "the race"  as that phrase is used in American English.  It's no more "racist" than "Up the Irish!" from someone named O'Malley or "Vive la France!" from someone named Bouvier.
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#15 Cheile

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 01:54 AM

Ogami, on Jul 19 2005, 08:44 PM, said:

To add to what RuReddy posted... One of news networks featured tonight on how much it will cost for hospitals to spend hiring translators to avoid lawsuits by patients who come in and don't speak the language.

If an American were vacationing in France, and were rushed to the hospital, it might be unfortunate if that person could not be understood. But we'd hardly sue another country for not speaking our foreign language.

-Ogami

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you have GOT to be kidding me!!

these people need to learn English or get the hell out. :grr:

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#16 Anastashia

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 07:24 AM

Themis said:

At least they must speak English.

Maybe, maybe not Themis. There are classes taught in many foreign languages in states throughout the country often at horrendous monetary costs to local school districts. Although classes to teach English to non-English speakers do exist, again adding to school budgets, nowhere is it policy that converting people to be primarily English speakers should be the norm from anything I've read or heard.

I'm with Chelie, although perhaps a bit less militant about it. If you are planning on staying in the US then you need to make a sincere and concentrated effort to learn English. Bilingual staffing should be a temporary assist for you to do this, not a perpetual right because you can't be bothered.
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#17 Themis

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 10:39 AM

Anastashia, on Jul 20 2005, 12:24 PM, said:

Themis said:

At least they must speak English.

I'm with Chelie, although perhaps a bit less militant about it. If you are planning on staying in the US then you need to make a sincere and concentrated effort to learn English. Bilingual staffing should be a temporary assist for you to do this, not a perpetual right because you can't be bothered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I entirely agree.  But I cannot believe that someone cound actually graduate from high school and contemplate college without a decent grasp of English.   Did you guys actually read the article or just the headline???

I agree with just about everyone here about illegal immigrants and the drain on the welfare system and the absurdity of US natives having to learn Spanish to communicate with immigrants, mostly from south of the border, who do not or will not learn English.  One of my triggers, as a matter of fact.  I spent high school years in El Paso and a good deal of my adult life in Los Angeles.  In the language arena, I accepted doing the California voters' information booklets in a variety of languages (mostly oriental and Spanish - I couldn't get one in French!)  because they were hard enough to understand if you were a native English speaker with a college education.  But having the ballots available in other languages drives me bananas - you are supposed to have a grasp of English to become a citizen and you are supposed to be a citizen to vote...wtf???!!!  I had parking lot attendents in LA trying to speak to me in Spanish - I came back in German, figuring if they wouldn't speak English, I didn't have to either...

But this article and thread was about illegals who manage to make it through high school and aren't able to progress to college.  In my experience, people who want to progress to college have to have learned decent English and have ambition and aren't likely to be the drain on society that so many are talking about in this thread.

Quote

Clinton praised four high school students from Arizona featured at the rally. Organizers said the illegal immigrants beat students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in a science competition, but can't attend college because of their status. Supporters of the DREAM Act point to such success stories as examples of talented students who would come to a dead-end after high school.

''I want to be sure I get their names,'' Clinton said of the students from Arizona. ''I want to make sure these students go to college.''

Students' illegal status renders them ineligible for financial aid. Labeled international students, they must pay up to three times the tuition of American students, making college financially unfeasible. And even if they earn a degree, they remain illegal immigrants, unauthorized to work.

I'm all for helping someone who can beat students from MIT in a science competition to attend college.  These are not people who are going to go out and procreate and end up on welfare.  Again, it is probable that their parents did the illegal immigrating and brought the kids with them.  I don't really have any objections to making things easier for talented and ambitious kids of illegals.   Aside from anything else, they might be able to earn enough money to support their parents and get the parents off welfare.  Although it is also likely that the kind of parents who raised kids who do that well in high school aren't on welfare in the first place.

Themis

Edited by Themis, 20 July 2005 - 10:54 AM.

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#18 Anakam

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 01:37 PM

Quote

But I cannot believe that someone cound actually graduate from high school and contemplate college without a decent grasp of English.

I can; not immigrants from old Mexico, though... usually students whose parents came from SE Asia.  I haven't run into more than 10 or 12, but they *are* there, and it makes me wonder.

If they can get through HS on the same standards as everyone else... then that's a different story, such as the MIT science competition.
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#19 Raina

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:21 PM

Quote

In the language arena, I accepted doing the California voters' information booklets in a variety of languages (mostly oriental and Spanish - I couldn't get one in French!) because they were hard enough to understand if you were a native English speaker with a college education. But having the ballots available in other languages drives me bananas - you are supposed to have a grasp of English to become a citizen and you are supposed to be a citizen to vote...wtf???!!!
It is possible to pass a citizenship test without really understanding English, or at least it used to be. My grandmother did that: she didn't understand English at all, but the test/interview was so standardized that she just found out from other relatives exactly what to say.
It irks me seeing a voter's info booklet in god knows how many different languages. Imho, if you can't be bothered to learn how to speak at least one of a country's official languages, you shouldn't have a say in their politics.

Is Spanish actually one of the US's official languages?

Quote

But I cannot believe that someone cound actually graduate from high school and contemplate college without a decent grasp of English.
Does the US have standardized tests that are required in order to get into college? Here in Canada, students who can't write English very well are usually graded easier throughout most of school, but we have standardized exams where the marker has no idea who we are, and I think a lot of them get weeded out that way.

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#20 tennyson

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:29 PM

The US has no official language.We have de facto languages that serve the same purpose but no official ones.  That is why making English the official language has garned so much controversy in the last few decades.
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