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Clinton aims to make dream real

Early Dream Act Senator Clinton Politics 2008 Election

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#21 Themis

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 01:47 PM

Raina, on Jul 22 2005, 05:21 PM, said:

It irks me seeing a voter's info booklet in god knows how many different languages. Imho, if you can't be bothered to learn how to speak at least one of a country's official languages, you shouldn't have a say in their politics.

You haven't seen California's voter information books.  They are extremely complicated and use legal language, present the proposition (these are used to explain the many propositions on the ballot at each election) and arguments pro and con.  I have a college degree and am a native American English speaker and they were tough to wade through.  If your native language was Spanish or Vietnamese, you would need master's or PhD level English to make it through.  So I don't mind making those available in other languages.  The ballot itself is something else.  If you can't read the words president, vice president, senator, proposition #3 etc.,  in English, you have no business voting.  IMO.  Voting intelligently in California takes some study.  Tennessee, on the other hand, has maybe 6 things on the ballot in a national election...all usually candidates.

As to an official language - I WISH the US had one.  At this rate it'll be Spanish by default in another few decades...

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#22 emsparks

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 02:58 PM

I just wrote this to Senator Clinton:

Dear Senator Clinton,

I am going to make this short. If you check your records, if you save past emails to you, you will find that I once counted my self a supporter of yours.

I am sorry to say that is now past. The problem is your stance on illegal immigrants. Understand due to the vagaries of genetics my kids, grandkids, and I are what is euphemistically called learning disabled. We are not people that can make it in a collegiate environment; I know we have tried, see Magill V Iona, Southern District of New York.

It is evident that the entire congress is corrupted by cheap all most slave labor and dreams of a new super constituency that we the citizens of this country, job wise count for nothing. Between 10 million illegal immigrants, so called free trade, outsourcing, the jobs that the we the underclass would do are no longer available to us.

If you really cared to take the time you would find out that to a man or woman we of the underclass are not here buy choice we are here by the offices of genetic based neurologic disorders. Well over 25% of your fellow citizens, because of neuronal damage cannot learn the way you think we all do. In a very real sense you have thrown away 25% of your fellow citizens.

If there is food on my table I donít mind sharing it with the less fortunate, but If I have none I can share none.

This is a waste of time, we mean nothing to you, and there is no one to turn to, no reason to voteÖ
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#23 shambalayogi

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:25 PM

I hope to God in Heaven that these 4 stay here permanently.  They are here though no doing of their own but by their parents coming here.  They are good citizens, good students and productive members of the community they are from.  Or they have the beginnings of being productive members of their community, actually that makes it pretty much my community since they're from Arizona.

I don't think illegal immigrants should be rewarded for coming here and they shouldn't get the same benefits as citizens but there can be some exceptions made.  This is of course, my own totally personal prejudice in favor of these young people staying in the country the only country and language they have really known.  Why should they be punished for their parent's doings?  I don't even know if they have any relatives at all in Mexico.  

there are private laws passed in the congress all the time for all kinds of individuals in all kinds of situations.  These four staying here seems a sensible and decent thing to do.

Edited for some clarity I think:  There are 4 local students, the Wilson 4, whose parents brought them to Arizona when they were toddlers or babies.  They are in danger of being deported from this country for not being citizens and have been the past 4 years.  

I didn't read the article thoroughly enough to see exactly what the whole article was about. Sorry!

Edited by shambalayogi, 22 July 2005 - 03:34 PM.

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#24 shambalayogi

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:30 PM

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 11:47 AM, said:

Raina, on Jul 22 2005, 05:21 PM, said:

It irks me seeing a voter's info booklet in god knows how many different languages. Imho, if you can't be bothered to learn how to speak at least one of a country's official languages, you shouldn't have a say in their politics.

You haven't seen California's voter information books.  They are extremely complicated and use legal language, present the proposition (these are used to explain the many propositions on the ballot at each election) and arguments pro and con.  I have a college degree and am a native American English speaker and they were tough to wade through.  If your native language was Spanish or Vietnamese, you would need master's or PhD level English to make it through.  So I don't mind making those available in other languages.  The ballot itself is something else.  If you can't read the words president, vice president, senator, proposition #3 etc.,  in English, you have no business voting.  IMO.  Voting intelligently in California takes some study.  Tennessee, on the other hand, has maybe 6 things on the ballot in a national election...all usually candidates.

As to an official language - I WISH the US had one.  At this rate it'll be Spanish by default in another few decades...

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh, you are so close to being right, Themis! At least, in this part of the country.
Actually, I know enough Spanish to be able to read it anyway.

DISCLAIMER:  This remark in no way means I'm prejudiced against Hispanics or anyone speaking Spanish.  It simply is a statement about how more Spanish is seen in the Phoenix area in public signs and stores and the newspaper, too.  It's simply a reflection of the reality of Spanish speakers living in the Valley of the Sun. And some of them are descendentns of those who've been living here a long time before my parent's got here!  My friend Cecelia Josefina is one of them.
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#25 Hibblette

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 04:25 PM

The problem with this whole matter goes way back.

Those pesky puritan kids, ya know.  But then again their parents dragged them along too.  :hehe:

[sarcasm mode fini]

These kids have graduated we should be proud to have them as citizens.  

Hey what about these kids that are going in the service dying for a country they are not a legal citizen of-personally that's wrong.  As soon as we sign them up and train them they should be considered Legal Citizens of this country.
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#26 Themis

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 04:44 PM

Sparky, what does that you and yours are not able to make it in a collegiate environment have to do with the idea of helping those who can make it do so?  This proposal has nothing to do with illegals taking what you call "underclass" jobs or sending jobs offshore.  It has to do with helping those children who are intellectually capable of going to college and preparing for what I suppose you would call "overclass jobs" do so, children who did not do the illegal immigrating themselves.  

Outsourcing is a whole 'nother topic, and it's happening to educated people with immense skills as well as to people making garments and shoes and such for pennies.   Those people sitting at computer help desks in India sure aren't doing "underclass" jobs.  

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#27 Natolii

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 08:50 PM

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

Sparky, what does that you and yours are not able to make it in a collegiate environment have to do with the idea of helping those who can make it do so?  This proposal has nothing to do with illegals taking what you call "underclass" jobs or sending jobs offshore.  It has to do with helping those children who are intellectually capable of going to college and preparing for what I suppose you would call "overclass jobs" do so, children who did not do the illegal immigrating themselves.   

Outsourcing is a whole 'nother topic, and it's happening to educated people with immense skills as well as to people making garments and shoes and such for pennies.   Those people sitting at computer help desks in India sure aren't doing "underclass" jobs. 

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well Themis, Considering I have said disabilities, I am one of Emsparks' kids and had to fight my way through college.

It is not because I am not capable of the work and not capable of suceeding. It is because of my disabilities that I had to work harder to succeed on my own rather than rely on the government's help.

You don't see nearly enough people going to bat for the disabled. To date only Congressman James Langvin (D-RI) has done anything and that is becasue he is a paraplegic. When he was 16 yrs old he was the victim of gun violence.

In this case, I am going agree with Ogami. Not enough is being done to help our own people, and yet we bend over backwards for illegal immigrants.

Welp, I fall into 2 minority catagories, female & disabled, TYVM. You don't see people doing anything there.

This is an attempt to garner votes given that the Mid-term elections are this year and Congress has done very little to work on issues effecting us all.


Sorry, but if my step-father and one of my supervisors can work towards and earn citizenship, what's stopping others... My Supervisor was 17 when she earned hers and is bilingual (Portugeuse/English). My stepfather made the attempt to learn the language (Spanish/English) and earned his.

Yes, you have no choice when you are younger, but that does not preclude you from earning it not that you are old enough.
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#28 sierraleone

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 09:10 PM

Natolii, on Jul 22 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

Welp, I fall into 2 minority catagories, female & disabled, TYVM. You don't see people doing anything there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree w/ most of the rest of what you're saying, but I don't think you can call being a female part of being a minority... maybe a disadvantaged/discriminated against (or other such word) group, but not a minority.
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#29 Themis

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 10:09 PM

And these students are earning it from what I read, by graduating and by qualifying for college admission.  It's not a handout to just anybody, it's to students who have earned the consideration.  Again, from what I read in the article.  Anybody who can achieve despite hard knocks deserves all the help they can get in my book.

Aside from that, illegal immigrants can't vote, so courting them won't help anybody win any elections.   Courting Hispanics?  Maybe.  But I still support helping anyone who is, in essence, an overachiever and strives to making more of themselves than circumstances would seem to dictate.

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#30 Natolii

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:45 PM

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 11:09 PM, said:

And these students are earning it from what I read, by graduating and by qualifying for college admission.  It's not a handout to just anybody, it's to students who have earned the consideration.  Again, from what I read in the article.  Anybody who can achieve despite hard knocks deserves all the help they can get in my book.

Aside from that, illegal immigrants can't vote, so courting them won't help anybody win any elections.   Courting Hispanics?  Maybe.  But I still support helping anyone who is, in essence, an overachiever and strives to making more of themselves than circumstances would seem to dictate.

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If they have the brains to get this far, then they can follow the established law and take the tests. They have nothing to lose and eveything to gain. I'm all for giving someone a fair chance as provided by *established* law.

But to pass a law to give them citizenship based on their academic standing? How is that not a handout? Why should they earn a special dispensation over someone that worked their way through the process and earned the citizenship? Figure that they have already passed several of the requirements as it is, let them have their turn.

I would be all for granting them citizenship but not by invalidating the hardwork of those that chose to abide by the laws by immigrating legally. Granted they had no choice originally, they are old enough to make that choice now.

Besides, I would think that these people would have more pride in their accomplishments if they can say "I earned this without anyone's help." Certainly not the help of a politician that is only out for votes. She was thwarted when Rockstar changed GTA's rating to AO, now she needs another cause to champion...

(Sidenote: When it comes to politics, neither party is safe from me. I honestly have no respect for the parties and the double standard of Politics as usual.)
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#31 Hibblette

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 12:03 AM

I believe the test is basically having an education about this country and of course the oath.  

If they've got through High School then I'd say they've achieved that.

I suppose I'm not an elitist when it comes to the magic of being born in this country.  

What makes being born here an automatic oath of allegience?

Quote

Besides, I would think that these people would have more pride in their accomplishments if they can say "I earned this without anyone's help." Certainly not the help of a politician that is only out for votes.

Everyone that applies for citizenship is given help in earning it.  The teachers that teach the classes alone is help.

As far as the issue of the Handicap that's a whole other issue.  And it is one that is a political issue, an issue that needs the help of politicians.
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#32 emsparks

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 07:40 AM

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

Sparky, what does that you and yours are not able to make it in a collegiate environment have to do with the idea of helping those who can make it do so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In the grand schema of things I and mine as individuals are unimportant, however as a representative sample of something a little over twenty five percent of the citizenry of this country our existents takes on an additional meaning. To put it simply I am not just talking about my family but something around 50 million other Americans and their families by statistical measure. In point of fact by not enforcing our immigration laws we are de facto helping an estimated ten million, Mexicans already. AND that doesnít begin to count, what The Immigration and Naturalization Service calls OTMís (Other Then Mexicans) illegal aliens from countries other then Mexico, that have so far entered this country through the Mexican American boarder.

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

This proposal has nothing to do with illegals taking what you call "underclass" jobs or sending jobs offshore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thatís a rather shortsighted view what happens to those children, when they have finished college.  

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

It has to do with helping those children who are intellectually capable of going to college and preparing for what I suppose you would call "overclass jobs" do so, children who did not do the illegal immigrating themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Just to put things in a little bit of a prospective in May and June this economy produced in the low 70,000 jobs per month, just based on our own indigenous population not counting immigration we need to make over 150,000 jobs a month to just account for normal population growth.

Ok letís help a few kids; according to the article some 63,000 kids are in the first wave, with no end in sight. Lets help a few kids, after all it wasnít their fault they where dragged across the boarder.

The question is just why where the kids dragged across the border in the first place. Might it have to do with being able to get better pay, and an education for their kids? Itís a simple equation, give them educational opportunities for their children, and ignore the immigration laws, and they will drag those kids across the boarder to get something that their own country will not do for them. So the stupid Americans will pay for their education, and health care, in ever increasing billions. Wouldnít it be more humane to set up and pay for schools universities, and hospitals in Mexico? We are not just talking about four kids; we are talking about the entire adolescent population of all the countries of Central America. BY the way, there are communities on the American southern boarder, that both freely educate Mexican children who are bused in from Mexico, and have built and support hospitals on Mexican soil.

In the context of answering my post the ďthose children who are intellectually capableĒ is a highly offensive remark. First of all to be considered Learning disabled you have to have an average to above average intelligence, and a marked deficit in a basic skill area like reading.

Second, Intelligence has nothing to do with being able to make it in this countryís so-called educational system, the determining factors are in the following order the dialect of American English taught by the parents to the child when their brainís language centers where forming ages 0 thru 3, reading rate, and a relatively intact capacity for short term memory. It simple cause and effect, if the childís language centers are damaged enough, or they have trouble understanding the dialect used; reading rate is slowed, then that child cannot do the assigned homework on time. If the child cannot do the assigned homework on time, they are in a pattern that gets successfully worse and canít keep up with the class work, and are not ready at the appointed time to move on to the next grade, or take the appointed achievement test. Itís retention that effects intelligence not reading rate or linguistic acuity. However it is just that reading rate and linguistic acuity in a particular dialect of English that are population wise the determinates of academic success. This by the way is by design, the American Education System, through funding from major industrialist, was developed in the mid eighteen eighties, to keep the maximum number of people on the factory floor, while at the same time supplying a small relatively well educated managerial class. Very much what you call the ďOver class.Ē So outsourcing, hiring from off shore; moving whole industries over seas; has a hell of a lot to do with it. If our citizenry canít earn the money to pay the taxes, how can we pay to help those poor deserving Mexican children?

Just as an aside the 10 million Mexican illegals in this country today is about one quarter of the total Mexican population, but we as a people arenít doing enough to help Mexican children in this country illegally.

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

Outsourcing is a whole 'nother topic, and it's happening to educated people with immense skills as well as to people making garments and shoes and such for pennies. Those people sitting at computer help desks in India sure aren't doing "underclass" jobs. 

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In fact they very much are underclass jobs; you see I canít decode (very basic reading) above a third grade level, yet I can repair a computer to the chip-level, spending 17 years in customer support. If I didnít have a computer reading to me I couldnít write this response, AND I AM NOT ALONEÖ The problem is you like most so-called educated Americans havenít got a clue as to who and what the underclass is. We are not as stupid as you have been conditioned to believe, and you have been conditioned to believe that, to keep the social welfare programs from giving factory workers the belief that they can actually achieve higher things, then working in a dark, dangerous, and demeaning factory.

Edited by emsparks, 23 July 2005 - 08:21 AM.

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#33 emsparks

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 08:46 AM

RuReddy1, on Jul 19 2005, 11:41 PM, said:

Oh sure,  thats the way the Democrats now choose to build thieir voting base.
Ö

RuReddy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You need to check your facts, it is both the Republican congress and Republican  President that are refusing to properly fund the boarder patrol, and are talking ďGuest Worker Programs.Ē

In actuality it is both parties working as hard as they can to dig the grave of the American worker, while grasping for that mythical Hispanic voter. It is also both parties that are selectively enforcing the immigration laws while screaming national defense, and war on terror. How in Godís name can we fight a war on terror, and not control our borders. No this is about cheap labor and both parties are equally guilty.

With the Minuteman associations spawning new chapters daily, and all the major unions reorganizing, the republicans, and for that matter the democrats are in for a hell of a shock come the next two or three Novembers.

Every time a presidentís approval rating are as low as President Bushís are now, there has been a change in the majority party.

The American people out side ďthe belt way,Ē donít like the economy, an economy that is only good to those that can afford to own stocks, and they donít like the illegal immigrant problem, big time.

Edited by emsparks, 23 July 2005 - 08:48 AM.

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#34 Raina

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 10:49 AM

Quote

I would be all for granting them citizenship but not by invalidating the hardwork of those that chose to abide by the laws by immigrating legally. Granted they had no choice originally, they are old enough to make that choice now.
The thought of illegal immigrants not having to go through the normal process, no matter what that process may be, really annoys me. You know why? Because my grandfather legally immigrated to Canada, and because of the immigration laws at the time, he wasn't allowed to bring the rest of the family over for 10 years. My father had to spend the first 10 years of his life without a father in his life because they choose to immigrate the legal way instead of doing it illegally.

Yes, going through the legal immigration/citizenship process can be hard (I'd imagine), but I think it undermines all the work legal immigrants have had to do if a government starts just handing out citizenship.

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#35 Hibblette

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 11:08 AM

Well see I don't think we have any trial by fire in the US of A.

Now anybody wants to enlighten me most assuredly do.

From what I have found on the internet it's basically what I was taught in school.

You fill out an application-I believe you have to have ID (pictures in other words), certain documents, you are interviewed by the INS and then you take the English and Civil tests.

Then you are told when the ceremony is and you show up and take the oath.

Now...I'm not sure what some of you are talking about in this earning category.

Everyone has their own challenges that you set for yourself and that's what you live your life by...and some have challenges that are thrust upon them.  But as far as Citizenship in the US of A-there's no trial by fire.  There's more then likely you have to live here for awhile and have the permanent residents card but the very nature of Democracy ...

Now if someone is just obviously from a questionable background and if they are here illegally it's a different story-and each one has their own story.

In regards to the jobs-well truth is these people do take jobs that so many here in the States do not want.  That's a hard cold fact.  The solution is tightening the bolts on these employers who will not pay a decent wage and will get away with bringing these people in from where ever.
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#36 Anastashia

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 12:21 PM

Natolii, on Jul 23 2005, 12:45 AM, said:

Themis, on Jul 22 2005, 11:09 PM, said:

And these students are earning it from what I read, by graduating and by qualifying for college admission.† It's not a handout to just anybody, it's to students who have earned the consideration.† Again, from what I read in the article.† Anybody who can achieve despite hard knocks deserves all the help they can get in my book.

Aside from that, illegal immigrants can't vote, so courting them won't help anybody win any elections.†  Courting Hispanics?† Maybe.† But I still support helping anyone who is, in essence, an overachiever and strives to making more of themselves than circumstances would seem to dictate.

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If they have the brains to get this far, then they can follow the established law and take the tests. They have nothing to lose and eveything to gain. I'm all for giving someone a fair chance as provided by *established* law.

But to pass a law to give them citizenship based on their academic standing? How is that not a handout? Why should they earn a special dispensation over someone that worked their way through the process and earned the citizenship? Figure that they have already passed several of the requirements as it is, let them have their turn.

I would be all for granting them citizenship but not by invalidating the hardwork of those that chose to abide by the laws by immigrating legally. Granted they had no choice originally, they are old enough to make that choice now.

Besides, I would think that these people would have more pride in their accomplishments if they can say "I earned this without anyone's help." Certainly not the help of a politician that is only out for votes. She was thwarted when Rockstar changed GTA's rating to AO, now she needs another cause to champion...

(Sidenote: When it comes to politics, neither party is safe from me. I honestly have no respect for the parties and the double standard of Politics as usual.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Hibblette, on Jul 23 2005, 12:08 PM, said:

Well see I don't think we have any trial by fire in the US of A.

Now anybody wants to enlighten me most assuredly do.

From what I have found on the internet it's basically what I was taught in school.

You fill out an application-I believe you have to have ID (pictures in other words), certain documents, you are interviewed by the INS and then you take the English and Civil tests.

Then you are told when the ceremony is and you show up and take the oath.

Now...I'm not sure what some of you are talking about in this earning category.

Everyone has their own challenges that you set for yourself and that's what you live your life by...and some have challenges that are thrust upon them.  But as far as Citizenship in the US of A-there's no trial by fire.  There's more then likely you have to live here for awhile and have the permanent residents card but the very nature of Democracy ...

Now if someone is just obviously from a questionable background and if they are here illegally it's a different story-and each one has their own story.

In regards to the jobs-well truth is these people do take jobs that so many here in the States do not want.  That's a hard cold fact.  The solution is tightening the bolts on these employers who will not pay a decent wage and will get away with bringing these people in from where ever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not to say I am in favor of giving these kids immediate citizenship because I'm not sure I am. However it's my understanding that to qualify to even take the citizenship test, since they are here illegally even though not by their own action, they would have to:

Return to their birth country, even though they may not remember it or know anyone there
Remain there before being eligible to reaply to enter the US, IIUC that would be for a three year period
After entering the US legally spent the mandated five year, again IIUC, period to qualify to take the test.

So at the minimum thsi would delay their entrance into college by three years as they could presumably re-enter the US with a student visa.

Of course then there is the issue of immigration quotas. I'm not sure what if any those might be from Mexico, whether or not there is a waiting list after application, etc.
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#37 Hibblette

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 12:29 PM

My post had to do with those that do it legally to begin with.

My point was that "earn", what?

Yea the going back would be a hassle and how would that country react to that?  Basically these kids have no country.

Personally I think it's silly that they make the illegal go back to his homeland.

Encarcerate, examine their time in the states and then...

I'm just not one to get all upset over this.

This country is all about immigrants, legal or illegal.  It's what keeps us alive.

Now I do get upset that even doing it the legal way there are some unsavory's that make it in and can live among us with the governments approval.  I get upset that they know some are here illegally and they are on a list of undesirables and they do nothing about it.

I do get upset over a truckload of people being abandoned and finding their dead bodies inside.

But for those that come here and are productive I have no problem with them.
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#38 offworlder

offworlder

    pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 03:40 PM

you know, I have to inject one thing into this:
how hard would it be for me to get legal status and a job in Australia? heck if I want to fly there they require return fare (outta there!) and sufficient funds (just to survive there, funds brought in along with from outside)
And just try to see me get some kind of financing for uni!

I really must say, either the illegals get legalized through the approval system, even retroactively, or out they must go, we have plenty of problems in our land related to populations and social services
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#39 Cheile

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    proud J/Cer ~ ten years and counting

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:30 PM

Hibblette, on Jul 23 2005, 10:29 AM, said:

My post had to do with those that do it legally to begin with.

My point was that "earn", what?

Yea the going back would be a hassle and how would that country react to that?  Basically these kids have no country.

Personally I think it's silly that they make the illegal go back to his homeland.

Encarcerate, examine their time in the states and then...

I'm just not one to get all upset over this.

This country is all about immigrants, legal or illegal.  It's what keeps us alive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


so what belongs to true citizens should just be handed to these people who don't even belong here??  i think not.  we are overcrowded as it is.  and they are taking work away from citizens in many cases because the employers are afraid of being slapped with racist charges by the ACLU.

illegal Americans in other countries wouldn't get special treatment.  so illegal Mexicans don't deserve special treatment here.  they should be sent back to where they came from.  if they want to come back they can apply like an honest person for citizenship.

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#40 LittleRedhead

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    Have a Sparky

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 01:42 PM

Hibblette, on Jul 23 2005, 09:08 AM, said:

In regards to the jobs-well truth is these people do take jobs that so many here in the States do not want.  That's a hard cold fact.  The solution is tightening the bolts on these employers who will not pay a decent wage and will get away with bringing these people in from where ever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I would have to agree you on that point Hiblette. The employers that hire illegal immigrants at below the legal minimum wage should have the full weight of the law come down on them. I know there are many parking lots where day loborers, many of whom are in the U.S. illlegally, are picked up to work under the table for employers that want to skirt the labor laws.

Unfortunately, I don't know that there are enough law enforcement personnel for the job even if law enforcement had the desire to really stop the employment of illegal immigrants.
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