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Clinton aims to make dream real

Early Dream Act Senator Clinton Politics 2008 Election

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#41 Nikcara

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 02:50 PM

Ogami, on Jul 20 2005, 03:44 AM, said:

To add to what RuReddy posted... One of news networks featured tonight on how much it will cost for hospitals to spend hiring translators to avoid lawsuits by patients who come in and don't speak the language.

If an American were vacationing in France, and were rushed to the hospital, it might be unfortunate if that person could not be understood. But we'd hardly sue another country for not speaking our foreign language.

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I would like to state for the record that this is a load of bull.  I've worked in German hospitals, and most of the doctors are fluent in English.  I've been given to understand this is the norm throughout Europe.  Also, they DID have translators for their Arabic patients, and many countries (including Germany) complain quite frequently of illegal middle eastern immigrants.  They also have a system where if a patient comes in and there is no translator for that langauge on duty (and none of the doctors, nurses, or staff know it, which is rare as most of them are multilingual) they call for one to be woken up and come in.

Also, the really expensive translators in this country tend to be for sign langauge.  Or should we just tell deaf people (citizens or not) "sorry, not going to bother trying to understand you"?
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#42 waterpanther

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 03:03 PM

During the times I've not been uninsured--and even some times when I have been--I've obtained optical and medical care and gotten prescriptions filled in Mexico.  The personnel at the pharmacies and doctors' offices all speak English.  In fact, most professional people in Mexico speak at least two languages, as is the case in Europe.   They consider it a courtesy if a visitor speaks Spanish, but they don't become mortally offended at those who don't.
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#43 emsparks

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 03:04 PM

I would like to make two points:

1. We have an indigenous Spanish speaking population, the Porto Ricans. So we have in fact a de facto second language, a Spanish dialect. I think though am not sure Spanish is also spoken on Guam. An English only law would in fact be racist against our own people.

2. Having said that, Mexican Spanish is different then either the Porto Rican or Guam dialects.
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#44 waterpanther

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 03:07 PM

And Mexican Spanish differs widely by region of Mexico.  In the Federal District, which speaks something very close to Castilian, I really watch my nortena accent!
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#45 Themis

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 08:35 PM

Anastashia, on Jul 23 2005, 05:21 PM, said:

Not to say I am in favor of giving these kids immediate citizenship because I'm not sure I am. However it's my understanding that to qualify to even take the citizenship test, since they are here illegally even though not by their own action, they would have to:

Return to their birth country, even though they may not remember it or know anyone there
Remain there before being eligible to reaply to enter the US, IIUC that would be for a three year period
After entering the US legally spent the mandated five year, again IIUC, period to qualify to take the test.

So at the minimum thsi would delay their entrance into college by three years as they could presumably re-enter the US with a student visa.

Of course then there is the issue of immigration quotas. I'm not sure what if any those might be from Mexico, whether or not there is a waiting list after application, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's it.  These kids  were brought here by their parents.  They have worked hard and have achieved.  They are exceptions to the rule.  They have lived as if they were citizens for the better part of 12 years and, while they might have relatives in Mexico, never lived there.  I have to feel they deserve a reward for their success, not what they might perceive as punishment.  Besides, isn't there an age requirement to applying for citizenship?
And I have to go back to half of Tennessee not even graduating from high school, let alone qualifying for college...so maybe the country needs these people to be college graduates since a fair proportion of our own natural-born citizens don't have the ability or the desire.  We
need college-educated citizens, whatever their origin.  I really can't see this as a handout. Just rewarding effort and ability.  

That said, do these kids retain any fluency in Spanish? (Not all of them would.)  If so, what is the educational level of Mexican universities?   Would they not qualify there?  Many other parts of the equation.

But living in a state with such a low percentage of high school graduates that attracts mainly manufacturing jobs, I have to say again that the US needs citizens equipped with a college education who are qualified for 21st century jobs.  If this helps us get them, I can't make a huge argument.

Arguing what would happen with a US citizen in another country doesn't equate because you are talking about adults.  This situation is about kids of illegals who were probably brought here as infants.  This is quite a different situation from those who immigrate as adults, legally or un.

For what it's worth, I wanted to live in England after graduating from college and got to the top 3 in some job considerations, but they would've had to get a work permit for me and not for the other candidates, so I lost out by playing the game legally.  But I wasn't brought there as a child or infant by my parents.  On a related thought, we have an English-born and accented (but apparently a US citizen) woman as a country d.j. here in Nashville, Tennessee.  You telling me they couldn't find a US-born and accented citizen to be a country dj in Nashville???!!!   Sometimes giving jobs to non-native-born citizens makes no sense, legal or otherwise.  



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#46 Cheile

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 11:32 PM

^ brought here or not by their parents, they are still illegal, Themis.

the same applies to all these illegal women coming over here pregnant so their babies can supposedly be born citizens.  why should the border states allow this??  they should be sent back but nooo, no one seems to bother to do so.  at least according to my Texan friends, who get very irritated with the fact that they cannot get hospital appointments for months and months because of all the illegal women and their illegitimate, in most cases, unborn babies.

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#47 Cheile

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 11:56 PM

point that was made to me when i started discussing this with a non-member:  illegals are getting scot free medical care which in turn makes the damn insurance companies scalp the LEGAL citizens of this country to where many suffer because they can no longer afford.  all of you being sympathetic to these illegal kids tell me how that is fair.  it will be YOUR children unable to get health care because the illegal kids are taking it from them if this continues.

Edited by Cheile, 24 July 2005 - 11:58 PM.

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#48 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 05:57 AM

I am reposing the full article, with emphasis because of the mischaracterization of the number of “KIDS” and timeframes involved. We are not talking about only four kids, we are talking about a minimum estimate of 65,000 a year, for every year of the act.

Jose Cardenas Of the Morning Call, on July 19, 2005, said:

Clinton aims to make dream real Senator wants to see law passed to legalize status of illegal immigrant high school grads.

By Jose Cardenas Of the Morning Call

PHILADELPHIA | U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton got a standing ovation Monday at a convention of the nation's largest Hispanic civil rights organization when she pledged support for federal legislation that would make it easier for high school graduates who are illegal immigrants to attend college.

Clinton, D-N.Y., made her remarks at the annual convention of the National Council of La Raza, which said it has drawn almost 23,000 people from around the country, including Hispanic leaders from the Lehigh Valley, to the Pennsylvania Convention Center.

''I hope with your help we will make the DREAM Act reality this year,'' said Clinton, a potential candidate for president in 2008.

[emphasis added]
The so-called DREAM Act would give an estimated 65,000 illegal immigrant students who graduate from high school annually legal status that could lead to citizenship. [/emphasis added]

The legislation, which has been supported by U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., has been introduced twice but has never come to a vote. Supporters hope it will be reintroduced this year.

In her remarks, Clinton referred to a rally that convention attendees held over the weekend in center city Philadelphia in support of the DREAM Act, or the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minorities Act.

Clinton praised four high school students from Arizona featured at the rally. Organizers said the illegal immigrants beat students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in a science competition, but can't attend college because of their status. Supporters of the DREAM Act point to such success stories as examples of talented students who would come to a dead-end after high school.

''I want to be sure I get their names,'' Clinton said of the students from Arizona. ''I want to make sure these students go to college.''

Students' illegal status renders them ineligible for financial aid. Labeled international students, they must pay up to three times the tuition of American students, making college financially unfeasible. And even if they earn a degree, they remain illegal immigrants, unauthorized to work.

The National Council of La Raza, headquartered in Washington, D.C., was established in 1968 and says its mission is to fight poverty and discrimination and improve life opportunities for Hispanics.

In her remarks, Clinton said that while organizations like NCLR are doing their part to promote education among Hispanics, the government is not doing enough to, among other things, bring down high dropout rates and make college affordable.

Among other issues, Clinton talked about the high representation of Hispanic children and adults in lead and paint poisoning cases and the high-cost that Hispanic immigrants pay to wire money to their home countries. In the last two cases, she said she has proposed legislation to remedy the problems.

Clinton was preceded in her speech by U.S. Education Secretary Margaret Spellings. She praised President Bush's No Child Left Behind initiative for helping bridge the gap in student achievement between Hispanic children and their white counterparts.

Spellings said gains among Hispanic children have helped in the overall academic improvement reflected in recently released data. The National Assessment of Education Progress report last week, she said, shows that reading and math scores have improved among 9-year-olds.

''These results did not come out of thin air,'' she said.

Puerto Rico Gov. Anibal Acevedo-Vila, who also addressed the convention, focused on the need to develop Hispanic leaders in the United States in the political and corporate arenas. He also had praise for Hispanics, particularly Puerto Ricans, who have served in this country's wars.

He shared a story of a mother in Puerto Rico who received news that her son, Ramon, had died in Iraq. He said the mother was sad but did not cry. Instead, he saw in her somber face a look of ''orgullo,'' or pride.

''Thanks to Ramon,'' Acevedo-Vila said, ''we can be proud to say it is our time'' to become leaders in the United States. ''Lo hemos ganado con sangre y sudor.'' (We have earned it with blood and sweat.)

The conference, which began Saturday and ends today, also featured sessions on topics such as strategies to incorporate Latino prisoners into society and providing affordable housing to the poor.

Today's speakers include Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean and his Republican counterpart, Ken Melhman, and U.S. Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez.

It's the first time the chairmen of both national committees will speak to the NCLR. That's a sign that both parties recognize the importance of the 40 million Hispanics in the country and their potential voting power, according to the group.

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 05:59 AM.

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#49 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 10:11 AM

I agree about illegals and free medical care (mostly because of poverty - if they have a decent income they're probably paying) and all the rest of it.   I'd like to send them all back.  Or just give Texas back to them (sorry, Texans!)   I lived in El Paso for 4 years (and my parents stayed there) and LA for 20 - you think I don't know about illegal immigrants and about Mexicans, in particular, not learning English and etc. etc. etc.???   Even in Tennessee (where I don't think a lot of natives actually speak "English") we have them coming in not learning English.  

However, this article is about productive people who do speak English getting into college to become more productive citizens, not about people who will likely end up as a further drain on the system.  It's also not about putting them through college for free.  It's about making someone who has grown up in the States with few ties to Mexico able to attend college here without having to go back to Mexico and start over or pay for college as foreign students when they have never lived outside the States. A better solution for me would be to make it so that they could get some kind of waiver so they could attend college on the same financial basis as a citizen and perhaps a streamlined citizenship process on graduation to enable them to get employment.  Maybe that would be part of the plan:

"The so-called DREAM Act would give an estimated 65,000 illegal immigrant students who graduate from high school annually legal status that could lead to citizenship."  It says COULD LEAD TO citizenship - it doesn't say it would give them citizenship.

This article isn't about people who are drains on the system.  This isn't about people who don't have the ability to work as anything but field hands or janitors or sweatshop garment workers.  Those are the people, in the main, who are drains on the system.  I see a difference.  Obviously several of you don't.  

That said, of course I'd rather stop illegals at the border in the first place and deport those who make it before they gain a foothold.   While I'm at it, there are a lot of non-productive US natives who are drains on the system that I'd like to deport.  I'd start with every mother on welfare who has another child while she's on welfare - and the father. Plenty of those getting my tax money and draining the system more than illegal high school graduates.  But that's another topic!  

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#50 Virgil Vox

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 11:04 AM

I'm of two minds on this. One one hand, if these kids(however numerous they are) are able to graduate high school and go on to college, I say more power to them. On the other hand, they are illegal immigrants(whether their parents brought them or not). By the time they graduate I'm sure they realize that they are illegal. So why not apply for citizenship? I'll admit having no knowledge of how to obtain citizenship or if it's difficult, but if they can graduate and go to college they should be smart enough to apply for citizenship. Should these kids be given automatic citizenship because they graduate high school? I'm not sure. I am really divided on the issue. One half of me says no because they are here illegally and just because they graduate high school doesn't mean they are going on to college while the other says yes because it might not be their fault that they're here illegally.

As for illegal immigrants in general, I'm against it. Not because I think they're a drain on society(which some are, to be sure) or any other reason. Simply because they're illegal. They are here against the law. Instead of doing the proper procedures they simply jumped the fence. Again, I have no idea what is involved in getting citizenship, but if it's something they really want, they should do it the proper way, no matter how involved it is. And maybe their lives suck where they are now. I don't know. But the truth of the matter is, we have people here with the same kind of problems faced the world over. So why should illegal immigrants get exceptions when our own citizens can't?

I hope I don't sound like a bigot. I have nothing against people who come here legally. My best friend's dad is from the Middle East. He came here the legal way, and now he has a wife, a daughter, a good job, a nice house, several cars. I hate talking about illegal immigration with her, though. She thinks they should be allowed to come here no matter what. She always says, "It's not like they're waiting to see a white guy leave his job and then they go in and take it from him." Whenever I say something back, she always says I just don't get it because I'm white. Like she gets it herself. She isn't working at the moment, but her parents are paying for her car, her college, her cell phone, etc. So somehow I don't think she's in touch with the plight of an illegal immigrant, either. But maybe that's just me.

I have no idea how illegal immigrants affect this country one way or another. I've never really delved deep into the politics of it. They're here illegally, so they should either be forced to get citizenship or be sent packing. Maybe it's not that simple, I don't know. Like I said, I'm not well versed on the topic. I could be way off base, and may have to change my opinion. When that time comes, I will. Until then, this is what I believe.

As for languages, I think English and Spanish should be the main ones. It's what seems to be spoken the most, IMO. I could be wrong. Some statistic out there could say otherwise. I'm simply going from what I know at the moment. I live in Texas, and a lot of people speak Spanish. It makes me wish I had payed better attention in Spanish class. But I do think if you're going to go to a country(to visit or to live) you should at least attempt to learn the language well enough to get by. Since I can't speak two languages, I'm not so picky if other people can't. As long as they know enough to get by, I'm happy. It doesn't even have to be perfect. If it's gramatically wrong, who cares? As long as they get their point across. I wouldn't go to France or Germany and expect them to know English just because I do. I would try and learn as much as I could of the language before going there. It might be horrible and spoken wrong, but at least I would have attempted it. That's really all I'm asking for. Attempt to learn some of the language. It makes life easier.

I could be way off base on all of this. I don't know. To me, it comes down to what's legal and what's not.
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#51 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 12:16 PM

Virgil Vox, on Jul 25 2005, 04:04 PM, said:

So why not apply for citizenship?

As for languages, I think English and Spanish should be the main ones.

There are answers above about the citizenship process, which would apparently involve leaving the only country these students have ever known for several years.  There may also be an age element - maybe you have to be 21.  I'll repeat myself:  "It says COULD LEAD TO citizenship - it doesn't say it would give them citizenship."  I am sure some kind of application process would have to be followed in this case.  

As to languages, the only reason so much Spanish is spoken is because the illegals from Mexico haven't learned English so we now have Spanish-language everything.  On the east coast, many oriental languages are also spoken in the home and in the community.  But, as Michener pointed out in "Centennial," those from south of our border are the only immigrant group that hasn't learned English, the others having done so in order to better themselves.   I am totally against making Spanish any kind of "official" language, mostly because it would give illegals yet another excuse not to learn English and integrate themselves with society.   I am all for everybody speaking more than one language and I am all for children learning both English and their parents' native language (which is easier to do as a child) as they grow up.  But dang it, I am NOT going to learn Spanish to communicate with somebody who moved here from another country and refuses to learn enough English to do their job in English.  I shouldn't have to write the word "trash" Spanish for the cleaning person to figure out it needs to be thrown out.  Anyone in that job in this country should darned well learn the word in English.  (Philosophical discussions are another matter entirely - I only ask that everyone learn to do their job in English, and that English doesn't have to be perfectly grammatical...)

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#52 Cheile

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 12:44 PM

Themis i will agree with you on the language thing.  i'm tired of seeing Spanish speakers catered to because they refuse to learn English.  i hate the father of my niece and nephew (who is an illegal but unfortunately can't be deported right now cuz he conned someone into paying for a visa) for abandoning his family but at least he learned proper English.  meanwhile his mother has refused to and can barely speak any.

it particularly irritates me with customers because i ask "did you get everything you needed?" and they give me blank looks.  or their overcharged debit card won't go through and they get pissy because, since they can't speak the OFFICIAL language of this country (and yes i feel English is the official language whether or not it's passed into law), they have no idea that they have to wait for management.  uggh.

as for the high school graduates not being a drain on the system, let's see how many of them actually graduate college and become productive members of society.  half the ppl that go into college drop out--and that's white people/legal citizens.  the same will likely apply to kids who may or may not know much English (since all high schools today have classes taught in Spanish--colleges aren't going to cater to that) with the lures of frat and sorority parties and what all else at big colleges stands in the way of any student trying to get a good education.

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#53 waterpanther

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 01:19 PM

Quote

meanwhile his mother has refused to and can barely speak any.

His mother may not be able to learn English (or Dutch or Swahili, for that matter.)  The peak age for language acquisition is before ten; after that, it gets progressively more difficult.  There have been millions of immigrant families--yes, even "white people"-- whose elders never learned English properly and who continued to speak Italian, Polish, Czech, Yiddish at home.  And should someone who can't--or won't--write standard English herself be making these criticisms?

BTW, are you aware that most Hispanics are in fact classified as "white people?"

Edited by waterpanther, 25 July 2005 - 01:20 PM.

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#54 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 01:29 PM

Agreed that it is much more difficult for older people to learn a language.  The problem is compounded by the fact that many of those from south of the border might be illiterate in Spanish too.

Still, I managed to pick up enough German for shopping and eating out in a summer course and I was only going there for two weeks.  It doesn't have to be grammatical, just comprehensible.  If English used a different alphabet, it would be one thing. But if those who speak Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc. can learn enough English to function in daily life, any immigrant, legal or not, should be able to.  Again, function in daily life, not have complicated philosophical discussions.   Most communities with enough immigrants have ESL classes (which shouldn't be needed, but there we are).  

"and that's white people/legal citizens" - uh, many legal citizens are not white.  Many white people are not legal citizens.

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#55 Cheile

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 03:27 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 25 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

And should someone who can't--or won't--write standard English herself be making these criticisms?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


oh so because in casual posting i don't use perfect English, i can't have an opinion on illegal immigrants who refuse to learn the main language of this country??  or have you forgotten there's a rule on this board about making comments like this?

Themis is right in another regard--if immigrants from the Asian countries and all OTHER countries make an effort to learn GOOD English when they move here, the Mexican/Hispanic ones should damn well do the same.  doesn't matter how old they are.

if i suddenly up and moved to, say, Greece or Denmark, i wouldn't expect the Greeks or Danes to cater to me and give me everything in English.  i'd have to tough it out and learn Greek and Danish to get along.

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#56 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 03:31 PM

What worries me is the total dearth of knowledge as to the true human condition in these here United States, as evidence by some of the comments on this topic.  The ignorance is deafening, and bespeaks that we as an economy, country and people are in for one hell of a bad time, in the next few decades.

Here are a few of the societal myths expressed here;

American workers are lazy, and will not compete.
Top down, profit centric management, a void of in-house training and a lack of a proper investment in research and development is the culprit here.

People that can’t get a college degree are stupid and or lazy undeserving of American citizenship.
Intransient school systems, and teachers taught how to teach only one style of learning for all people no matter what, are the fault here. Both Thomas Alva Edison, and Albert Einstein where what is today euphemistically called learning disabled, and thrown out of their local schools as being uneducable. They both would be thrown out of today’s schools. Einstein was thrown out of schools in Germany, Italy, and Switzerland.

Woman on welfare with more then one child are deliberately stealing from the American people through welfare fraud. .
This is very much the fault of the federal government, most of these women and their husbands suffer from neurologically based impulse disorders and would benefit from more, intelligent and proactive planned parenthood programs, and better more reality based sex education in the schools. These people are easy to identify when they are children. Keep teaching abstinence and you'll keep having massive amounts of out of wedlock poor babies.

Illegal immigrants are more deserving of medical support then are underemployed Americans. .
Ok don’t stop the Mexicans, what country should be stopped, or should we just tare down our boarders all together. What’s the sense of having, laws or a country for that matter?

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 03:53 PM.

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#57 waterpanther

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:05 PM

Cheile--I merely point out that you are demanding of others what you won't do yourself.  Put whatever name to that you like.

I believe there's also a rule about slamming people through generalizations--all "non-white" people, for instance. :whistle:

emsparks--As long as there are employers who will hire illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants are going to keep coming.  That's the bottom line, just as it is with the drug trade.  If there's a demand, there will be a supply.  Are the country club set willing to give up their maids and gardeners, their nannies and their cooks?  Is agribusiness ready to give up its non-unionized melon pickers?  Many employers hire illegal immigrants as "contract labor," to do janitorial work or other jobs that are generally out of public sight.  That means they can not only avoid paying benefits, but that the employee has no recourse against abuses.  Walmart, you may remember, not only hired illegal employees to do the cleaning at night, but locked them in the store with no supervisor present.


As for medical care, the unfortunate fact is that the folks who are most scandalized that illegal immigrants may get free medical care are also the most obstinately opposed to any American system of universal health care.  The fact is that medicine as it is practiced in the United States today is big business.  There may still be medical professionals who are caring healers, but they perforce answer to corporations who frankly don't give a hoot about little Johnny's (or Juanito's) brain tumor, only about the bottom line.  

That's a separate issue from immigration.  Mexico has price-capped its medical services and medications, and those price caps apply to any patient or customer regardless of nationality.  Canada provides universal health care, with services free or low-cost even to US citizens who happen to be visiting.  The real question is not, why are aliens getting better care than some Americans, but why aren't all Americans (and visitors) getting affordable and better care?
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#58 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:10 PM

[QUOTE]American workers are lazy, and will not compete[/QUOTE]

Who said that???

[QUOTE]People that can’t get a college degree are stupid and or lazy undeserving of American citizenship.[/QUOTE]

Who said that???

[QUOTE]Woman on welfare with more then one child are deliberately stealing from the American people through welfare fraud.[QUOTE]

Who said that?  In my post that mentioned that I didn't mention fraud at all.  Nor did I mention anything about husbands (fathers yes).  I am referring to single, mostly teenage and unwed mothers who won't either keep their legs closed or practice birth control and the men who father their children who won't keep their pants zipped or use birth control.  Including those among them on drugs.  And they just keep having those kids... I am not referring to people who end up on welfare through no fault of their own.

[QUOTE]Illegal immigrants are more deserving of medical support then are underemployed Americans.[/QUOTE]

Who said that????

Sparky, you seem to be reading a different thread, or reading posts that aren't showing up on my screen...

Themis
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#59 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:16 PM

waterpanther; (Sorry)

In many ways you and I, are beating the same drum, only the wording is different.

As to Nanny-Gate, congressmen and senators are members, in good standing of the country club set also. Cab you imagine a senator coming home and telling the spouse, that the house keeper has to go back to Mexico, because of a congressional bill to close the boarders.

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 04:36 PM.

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#60 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:16 PM

Themis,

I am not going point for semantic point with you. The wordings might be different but the underlying meaning is the same, case in point.

American workers are lazy, and will not compete.

How is this wording any different then

“There are jobs that Americans won’t do” and “I have to say again that the US needs citizens equipped with a college education who are qualified for 21st century jobs. If this helps us get them, I can't make a huge argument.” and let us not forget, “so maybe the country needs these people to be college graduates since a fair proportion of our own natural-born citizens don't have the ability or the desire.”

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 04:27 PM.

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