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#61 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:30 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 25 2005, 09:05 PM, said:

As long as there are employers who will hire illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants are going to keep coming.  That's the bottom line, just as it is with the drug trade.  If there's a demand, there will be a supply.

The real question is not, why are aliens getting better care than some Americans, but why aren't all Americans (and visitors) getting affordable and better care?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Preach it!!!  On both counts.  (Except that Americans with the right health insurance or very fat bank accounts are getting maybe the best care in the world. Those with neither...end up in bankruptcy.)

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#62 waterpanther

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:32 PM

Or dead.
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#63 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:36 PM

Sparky, the wording is very different and mine is not a generalization about all American workers.  If a US citizen doesn't have the ability, that is not saying they are lazy or will not compete.  Now as to why so many students in some states don't finish high school - that's a whole 'nother discussion.  Some of it is cultural and living down to their parents' expectations.  That doesn't say anything about them as workers.  Not having the ability does not equal lazy or lack of willingness to compete.  

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#64 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 04:47 PM

^^^
Themis,
With all due respect “so maybe the country needs these people to be college graduates since a fair proportion of our own natural-born citizens don't have the ability or the desire.” is a pretty fair generalization, which is being used to justify the displacement of more then a few American workers.

Now as to why so many students in some states don't finish high school - that's a whole 'nother discussion. Some of it is cultural and living down to their parents' expectations. That doesn't say anything about them as workers. Not having the ability does not equal lazy or lack of willingness to compete.

No it’s not an other subject it is the main justification for your saying we need the educated children of illegal immigrants as all too many of our citizens are stupid.
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#65 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 05:14 PM

How is it displacement if a US citizen isn't available, for whatever reason, to do the job?

Sending the jobs offshore - that's displacement.

40-some percent of Tennessee citizens do not finish high school.  Other southern states have similar percentages.  That's not the fault of immigrants, legal or illegal.  Are the kids stupid or lazy?  Maybe, in some cases.  More likely they want to go to work NOW and earn money - often the case.  They might have the ability to go further, but they don't have the desire.  A lot of them have the desire for an income now.  And that's cultural.  Shortsighted but not stupid.  Shortsighted but not lazy - they're probably doing very un-lazy manual labor or driving a truck instead of working in a nice air conditioned office. So if they don't finish high school, they aren't going to be able to do the jobs that require an education and somebody else has to.  Somebody with a college education, however they got it.   Unless society can teach our own kids to stay in school now to earn more later, we'll have to find somebody else to do the jobs that need an education.   That's all related to the cycles of poverty in some areas, but those cycles of poverty are not the fault of immigrants.

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#66 Natolii

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:04 PM

Themis, on Jul 25 2005, 06:14 PM, said:

How is it displacement if a US citizen isn't available, for whatever reason, to do the job?

Sending the jobs offshore - that's displacement.

40-some percent of Tennessee citizens do not finish high school.  Other southern states have similar percentages.  That's not the fault of immigrants, legal or illegal.  Are the kids stupid or lazy?  Maybe, in some cases.  More likely they want to go to work NOW and earn money - often the case.  They might have the ability to go further, but they don't have the desire.  A lot of them have the desire for an income now.  And that's cultural.  Shortsighted but not stupid.  Shortsighted but not lazy - they're probably doing very un-lazy manual labor or driving a truck instead of working in a nice air conditioned office. So if they don't finish high school, they aren't going to be able to do the jobs that require an education and somebody else has to.  Somebody with a college education, however they got it.   Unless society can teach our own kids to stay in school now to earn more later, we'll have to find somebody else to do the jobs that need an education.   That's all related to the cycles of poverty in some areas, but those cycles of poverty are not the fault of immigrants.

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Maybe lazy or shortsighted on the part of the teachers...

Do not lay the entire blame on the students unless you are the parent of a disabled child or have been on the receiving end of the abuses heaped on disabled children.

I have been through the latter and am going through the former. Our school system is based on test and learning by rote. My daughter herself has been labled several times as in danger of failing, which based on her report card is a crock of (Insert expletive here). Funny, She is very much computer literate and is able to handle herself well in educational games as well as games that require cognitive skill such as puzzle solving.

In elementary school I was labeled an underachiever... Funny how I was able to achieve the Presidental Academic Award not Once, but Twice after having gotten out of the Public School system.

The fact remains that there are children out there that wish to succeed but are held back because their brains are wired differently. I know a young boy that wishes to become an engineer for NASA. IN fact he wants to follow in his grandfather's footsteps. The fact he is 14 years old and is able to hold his own with said grandparent is a testiment to his determination. This child is also ADHD and suffers from Graves disease... Are we to hold back such a mind because of this?

Sad to say, in all your statistics, I'm willing to bet you will find that more times than not, the above has happened.

And having a degree is not a guarantee to getting a better job... Oh No, I found that one out the hard way. I had my degree in Computers and got told I didn't have enough experience. I had to work my way through CUSTOMER SERVICE to get to my present position. I started at $8 an hr... I'm now just making under $12 an hr after 5 YEARS.
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#67 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:13 PM

Themis, on Jul 25 2005, 06:14 PM, said:

How is it displacement if a US citizen isn't available, for whatever reason, to do the job?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your question is based on a fallacious assumption, that being in an adult population of over 180 million workers, that there is no one person to take any job. Give a job pay a living wage and there will be more then enough applicants. If for some impossible reason that there are no applicants, then how about promoting from inside, hiring a high school intern. Ever hear about something called “On The Job Training.”

In the electronics and software industries, high-tech industries, it is not uncommon to find technicians doing the work of engineers. As a matter of fact US military, allows such non-degreed Associate Engineers, to be billed out the same as full engineers. If there is a demand for a certain skill set in numbers then local post secondary schools will bring on new courses and hire more teachers. Your way other countries supply the applicant and there is no need to hire American teachers locally, so American neighborhood educational opportunities are stifled. Just as an aside the Los Angeles school district has admitted to hiring teachers from Mexico, when American teachers where available.

There is never a time where an American cannot be found to do a job, when paid properly. It all comes down to what the employer is willing to pay.

Themis, on Jul 25 2005, 06:14 PM, said:

Sending the jobs offshore - that's displacement.

40-some percent of Tennessee citizens do not finish high school.  Other southern states have similar percentages.  That's not the fault of immigrants, legal or illegal.  Are the kids stupid or lazy?  Maybe, in some cases.  More likely they want to go to work NOW and earn money - often the case.  They might have the ability to go further, but they don't have the desire.  A lot of them have the desire for an income now.  And that's cultural.  Shortsighted but not stupid.  Shortsighted but not lazy - they're probably doing very un-lazy manual labor or driving a truck instead of working in a nice air conditioned office. So if they don't finish high school, they aren't going to be able to do the jobs that require an education and somebody else has to.  Somebody with a college education, however they got it.   Unless society can teach our own kids to stay in school now to earn more later, we'll have to find somebody else to do the jobs that need an education.   That's all related to the cycles of poverty in some areas, but those cycles of poverty are not the fault of immigrants.

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The vast majority of high school dropouts where runoff by their high school administrations, and or teachers, because the school had decided that, that student was just too hard to educate. As their parents where also run off for the same reason, in many cases, because the education problems that the schools refuse to address are genetic in nature, having nothing to do with intelligence. Education problems that schools could address, if they wanted to, but that would be too much like work. So a number of the high schools in this country have dummied up the reports they must make to the federal government reporting less dropouts then there are. If this is truly a student-based problem why are so many High Schools lying about their drop out rate?

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 06:20 PM.

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#68 Hibblette

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:16 PM

I'm sorry Sparky but there are jobs out there that a majority of Americans will not take due to the pay the employers offer .

And this is right on-why?  Because these greedy little people that have these businesses don't want to pay a good wage.  So...people refuse to work at them and others who have different lifestyles and state of mind in another country are willing to.

This is also why some top Corporations are outsourcing to other countries and the only way that can be stopped is through something called the political process with the PEOPLE in mind and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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#69 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:28 PM

^^^
I’m sorry, but at no point have I disagreed with you. In my above post I say “Give a job and pay a living wage”

One point, having been there, you'd be surprised, how many American citizens will take those jobs at the wages offered, out of need. The problem is an American worker is free to move on to a better situation where illegals are afraid that their boss will report them to the INS.

Edited by emsparks, 25 July 2005 - 06:38 PM.

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#70 Hibblette

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:41 PM

Either way the problem is not solved just because an American will take that job when he can't find anything else.  As you said-he/she will move on.
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#71 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 06:43 PM

You guys MAY not live in the South.  MANY people here leave high school not because of any learning disability or any other kind of disability.  They leave to earn a paycheck now.  They think this will let them have fun and learn an independent life.  There are many reasons for that and none of them involve illegal immigration.  Several of our receptionists in the law firm didn't graduate.  Most have been very bright.  One finally got her GED.  I've known females who had to leave because they got pregnant (a form of my stupidity in my own opinion, but in reality a lack of wisdom).  I've known boys who left to support a pregnant female.

When I lived in LA, I didn't know anybody who didn't have a college diploma.  In Nashville, I don't know many people who DO have one.

Frankly, and this would be another thread, a lot of folk don't graduate because they can't either keep their legs closed and/or their flies zipped, even though they know darned well what causes babies.

No, a college education below a PhD no longer guarantees a great job.  But it does pretty much guarantee you an air conditioned job.  (Hey, it was a "feels like" 106 today - weather is on my mind!)


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The problem is an American worker is free to move on to a better situation where illegals are afraid that their boss will report them to the INS.


Exactly.  And that is where the illegals who might get a shortcut to citizenship for getting a college education would fall.  This is far from a simple issue.  I repeat that I want illegals to be sent back. But those who have fit into the US system and show ambition and gumption and ability to move into productive citizenship maybe deserve some consideration that those who sneak over the border with no abilities may not.  Someone who has lived as a de facto US citizen for many years may, upon examinaton, deserve some shortcuts through the system.  Examination is definately a factor.

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#72 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 07:05 PM

^^^
All people should be treated humanely. However one should not go to the head of the line just because they obeyed the laws and bettered themselves. Especially when going to the head of the line means jumping over some equally law-abiding person who is trying through the visa program to enter the United States legally. If that is done then illegality is rewarded and thereby fostered.
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#73 Themis

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 07:25 PM

emsparks, on Jul 26 2005, 12:05 AM, said:

. However one should not go to the head of the line just because they obeyed the laws and bettered themselves. Especially when going to the head of the line means jumping over some equally law-abiding person who is trying through the visa program to enter the United States legally.

OK, I'll buy that one.

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#74 emsparks

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 07:47 PM

Not being funny, thanks for the conversation…
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#75 Cheile

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 05:28 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 25 2005, 02:05 PM, said:

Cheile--I merely point out that you are demanding of others what you won't do yourself.  Put whatever name to that you like.

um i KNOW proper English.  i don't have to learn what i already know.  so that comment makes no sense.

waterpanther, on Jul 25 2005, 02:05 PM, said:

I believe there's also a rule about slamming people through generalizations--all "non-white" people, for instance.

saying i don't want illegals here is not being racist.  so you can quit twisting my words.

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emsparks--As long as there are employers who will hire illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants are going to keep coming.

on that, you're actually right.

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Walmart, you may remember, not only hired illegal employees to do the cleaning at night, but locked them in the store with no supervisor present.

provided this is true, don't judge the whole corporation on the actions of a few criminal store managers.

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As for medical care, the unfortunate fact is that the folks who are most scandalized that illegal immigrants may get free medical care are also the most obstinately opposed to any American system of universal health care. 

i would like to see a national health care system.  HOWEVER, i want it set up so that illegals cannot get access to it UNTIL they become legal citizens....or a system set up to help the actual citizens will be abused by those who aren't even paying taxes.

Edited by Cheile, 26 July 2005 - 05:32 PM.

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#76 waterpanther

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:13 PM

Cheile--I refer specifically to this sentence in your post above:

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half the ppl that go into college drop out--and that's white people/legal citizens.

This says that even white people drop out, so what can be expected of non-whites, who, the sentence implies, are somehow not up to white standards.   Now, I'm willing to entertain the idea that that's not what you actually meant, but it's your responsibility to make sure that your meaning comes across clearly.

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QUOTE
Walmart, you may remember, not only hired illegal employees to do the cleaning at night, but locked them in the store with no supervisor present.


provided this is true, don't judge the whole corporation on the actions of a few criminal store managers.

Actually, I judge Wal-Mart on a whole spectrum of issues, including their general employment practices, their well-documented discrimination against women in management, their ecologically destructive building practices, their obliteration of smaller, locally owned businesses, their shoddy, overpriced goods and their donations to radical right-wing causes.  

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i would like to see a national health care system. HOWEVER, i want it set up so that illegals cannot get access to it UNTIL they become legal citizens....or a system set up to help the actual citizens will be abused by those who aren't even paying taxes.

I assume, then, that should you ever find yourself outside the United States and in need of medical care, that you will stand firm on principle and absolutely refuse the free services they offer you.   :devil:
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#77 Themis

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:35 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 27 2005, 12:13 AM, said:

I assume, then, that should you ever find yourself outside the United States and in need of medical care, that you will stand firm on principle and absolutely refuse the free services they offer you.

I don't know that the services would be free.  When I did publicity for Ice Capades and spent a lot of time in Canada, I had to see a doctor for something.  I thought I'd lucked out because there was no mention of a charge at the time, but I got a bill later.

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#78 Cheile

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:49 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 26 2005, 05:13 PM, said:

This says that even white people drop out, so what can be expected of non-whites, who, the sentence implies, are somehow not up to white standards. 

um WRONG!  that's saying that no matter what the race, who can say that ALL the illegal kids will pass college with flying colors, as ppl on their side seem to assume?  and it has nothing to do with their race.  it has to do with what happens at all colleges to all kinds.  half the ppl drop out.  they get lazy, party too much, let their grades suffer.  whatever.

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Actually, I judge Wal-Mart on a whole spectrum of issues, including their general employment practices, their well-documented discrimination against women in management, their ecologically destructive building practices, their obliteration of smaller, locally owned businesses, their shoddy, overpriced goods and their donations to radical right-wing causes.


if you say so....  female upper management outnumbers male at mine.  and our prices are way better than most other places in town.  as for "obliteration of smaller, locally owned businesses"...it's called capitalism....which is what this country was founded on.  and i'd bet that many of those small businesses that have shut down had poor customer service and sky high prices.  that is the case here and long before our Walmart opened, the owners of said businesses were whining that no one "shopped locally".  yea maybe because going out of town was CHEAPER.

as for what they donate to (and tell me what the crime is in donating to a charity that helps fund hospital bills for children in the community that the store is in), i don't see how that is any of your business.  is it their business what YOU donate to?  i think not.

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#79 tennyson

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:50 PM

I was billed plenty when I got sick in Australia. That's why I had to buy a certain kind of limited health insurance before I went on the exchange program.
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#80 waterpanther

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:03 PM

Corporations are required by law to make their political contributions public, right along with their audits and annual reports.  So yes, it is the public's business, and some of us use that information to make buying decisions.  

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as for "obliteration of smaller, locally owned businesses"...it's called capitalism....

It's called creating a monopoly, which is legally iffy at best.
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