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Clinton aims to make dream real

Early Dream Act Senator Clinton Politics 2008 Election

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#81 Cheile

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:08 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 26 2005, 06:03 PM, said:

Corporations are required by law to make their political contributions public, right along with their audits and annual reports.  So yes, it is the public's business, and some of us use that information to make buying decisions.

i'd ask what you have against the Children's Miracle Network but i'm not going to bother.

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as for "obliteration of smaller, locally owned businesses"...it's called capitalism....

It's called creating a monopoly, which is legally iffy at best.

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^ guess you missed what i said about the possibility of those businesses who got shut out having poor customer service and high prices.  because it's a known fact that small businesses will set high prices and have questionable or ridiculous but not illegal sales practices in order to make more money.

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#82 ZipperInt

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:54 PM

That's a generalization about small businesses if I've ever heard one. I'm sure that *some* small businesses have ridiculously high prices and bad customer service, but it is way more likely that small businesses are driven off by Walmart because they simply can't compete with a mega corporation, which is able to produce and obtain products at a much lower price (thus enabling to make things so cheap, as you've already noted).
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#83 Themis

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 09:40 PM

It's difficult.  These less expensive products, mainly clothinbg, while they may be of good quality, are produced by people paid under living wages in third world countries.  A Wal-Mart buys everything it sells by the zillions, so it can buy them for less than a smaller, local business.  Yes, I like the low prices.  But sometimes I'd rather go for the service and the product knowledge of a specialty (non-box) store.  But then we have box specialty stores - for electronics, there's Circuit City and Best Buy, for instance, so while I'm not sure the Wal-Mart clerk knows his stuff, I think the others do.  And they're buying in quantity too, which also puts the small guy out of business.  If you've got a Wal-Mart, a Target, a Costco and other big box stores in your area, Wal-Mart isn't a monopoly.   If the local small store is closer and friendlier and offers good service, it might survive.  Does Wal-Mart take advantage of cheap labor - you betcha.  Do I like buying things at their prices?  You bet.  But it's all in what an item is worth to you.  Given a choice, I prefer shopping at Target - still good prices, but not as junky a store.  And I prefer the customers.  I think there are lots of things about Wal-Mart as a corporation that are less than admirable.  But I go there when I'm looking only at price.  Or can't find the item I want at a Target.  And they actually have some frozen food items that aren't at my Kroger... The story about the illegal janitorial staff was national news and not an isolated incident so I have to think it had management at least winking at the practice.  Nationally, they have demonstrated a bias towards males in management.  So I'll shop elsewhere when it works for me.  Yes, it's capitalism, and we don't  have any kind of laws to keep the small guy in business when the large guy comes in and outprices them.  Should we?  I don't know.  I don't want to see a country of Wal-Mart's at the expense of the small guy who can't buy in the quantities a Wal-Mart can.  Will the small guy make up for more expensive prices by selection and quality and service?  Some will.  Some can't.  Is it good?  Is it bad?  Is it capitalism at work or the big guy running roughshod over the small guy?  I don't know.  It's too complicated for me.  I'll just say there are some times I prefer shopping at the small guy and sometimes I'll go for the big box discounter.  I hope there'll be a place both.  This is really OT for this thread, but what the hey.

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PS - as for the Children's Miracle Network, which was founded by a friendly acquaintance of mine (John Schneider), I'm not sure how much money these stores who present the checks actually contribute, though I'd like to know.  Most of the money seems to be raised by walks and car washes (with the public contributing) and such and at-register contributions in the stores - surely you see the "buy a balloon" campaigns in the stores. OK, it's nice that the stores, including Wal-Mart, do that.  But do they contribute any corporate money???  I really don't know but when I see the in-store campaigns and watch the telethon and hear them talk about the walks and car washes, etc., it doesn't seem like it.  It seems like they're presenting those checks for money contributed by the public but collected at their stores. (This does NOT apply only to Wal-Mart.)
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#84 Cheile

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 10:04 PM

ZipperInt, on Jul 26 2005, 06:54 PM, said:

That's a generalization about small businesses if I've ever heard one. I'm sure that *some* small businesses have ridiculously high prices and bad customer service, but it is way more likely that small businesses are driven off by Walmart because they simply can't compete with a mega corporation, which is able to produce and obtain products at a much lower price (thus enabling to make things so cheap, as you've already noted).

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guess Canadian small business owners have more business smarts--and no that is not being sarcastic.  i speak from experience living in a small town and being surrounded by small towns where, outside of restaurants, there is only ONE small local business that provides excellent customer service (the prices can't be helped in this case because some of the items are imported/handcrafted/both--but they are worth paying regardless) and works to keep their customers coming back.  all the other local businesses (again food places excluded) really don't seem to care whether or not you come back.

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#85 eloisel

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 10:11 PM

I use to refuse to shop at Wal-Mart because of the music censorship.  However, as prices on everything get higher and higher, I have to get some relief somewhere.  I take heart that there are so many people in this country that are employed by Wal-Mart.  We have three in my City, and just one of them employs more people than 20 Mom & Pop stores combined.

Edited by eloisel, 26 July 2005 - 10:13 PM.


#86 Anakam

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 08:36 AM

Cheile, on Jul 27 2005, 01:49 AM, said:

waterpanther, on Jul 26 2005, 05:13 PM, said:

This says that even white people drop out, so what can be expected of non-whites, who, the sentence implies, are somehow not up to white standards. 

um WRONG!  that's saying that no matter what the race, who can say that ALL the illegal kids will pass college with flying colors, as ppl on their side seem to assume?  and it has nothing to do with their race.  it has to do with what happens at all colleges to all kinds.  half the ppl drop out.  they get lazy, party too much, let their grades suffer.  whatever.

Did you see what waterpanther said after that?

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Now, I'm willing to entertain the idea that that's not what you actually meant, but it's your responsibility to make sure that your meaning comes across clearly.

It's true, I suppose, that statistics pretty much say that 'blacks' and 'hispanics' aren't as 'successful' in academics as whites, but this initiative appears to be discussing how to help with that, about not denying them that chance because of how they got here, when they've already been successful.  I might not be remembering it correctly, just as waterpanther was willing to note that you might have meant other than what came across.  So what exactly is wrong with BOTH of you asking for clarification, instead of you starting your response, as you did here, with 'um WRONG'?  You could have clarified without that.  I'm really not trying to be a vigilante, but I post here same as the rest of you and there's so much that can go better if more of us take the time to explain or ask a question.

BTW, just so you know, lack of capitalization and use of abbreviation are both pet peeves of some people, and there are some who, I suspect, actually find it difficult to read (and some who take a very long time crafting their posts to make sure they're as good as they can be, and in a serious discussion like this one, just want others to appear to have done the same).  You're more than welcome to see that as their problem, but at a time when OT is endeavouring for a more academic atmosphere, you may also find that writing things out in full gets you taken more seriously, simply by default of that being how a lot of us are taught to write if we want to 'look good'.

Now, if there's any of what I've written above that's not clear or whatver, you're more than welcome to ask me WTF I meant.  But don't assume that, say, "taught to write if we want to 'look good'" means that you haven't been taught how to write, or something equally generalized and insulting.

Continuing slightly offtopic, a question for waterpanther (I'm really not sure how the conversation got to Wal-Mart, but since you listed a variety of what I presume are things they do you object to, I've got a question on one of them):

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and their donations to radical right-wing causes.

Source/link please?  I must confess to curiousity.

A small suggestion having to do with college graduation & concerns that the students this initiative is meant to benefit may become a dropout statistic--perhaps some incentives are in order.  :whistle:
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#87 waterpanther

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 06:56 PM

Anakam, go to BuyBlue and click on the alphabetized listings tab, then the W.  Wal-Mart, it turns out, makes 78% of its political contributions to Republicans.
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#88 Anakam

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 12:08 AM

Thanks--I'll check it out.
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I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#89 Cheile

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 12:25 PM

waterpanther, on Jul 27 2005, 04:56 PM, said:

Anakam, go to BuyBlue and click on the alphabetized listings tab, then the W.  Wal-Mart, it turns out, makes 78% of its political contributions to Republicans.

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so you're trying to say because they donate to Republicans, that equals "radical right-wing causes" (your words).

not every Republican is like our so-called President, so it's really impolite of you to lump them all together in that wording.  if i were still Republican, i wouldn't appreciate it.

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#90 waterpanther

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Posted 29 July 2005 - 07:49 AM

Unfortunately, at the moment, the radical right wing has the Republican Party by the throat and shows no signs of letting go.  There are perhaps four or five--McCain, Snow, Collins, Chaffee--"moderate" Republicans in the Senate, ten percent or less.  That McCain, who is an old fashioned Goldwater conservative, is considered "liberal" by many Republicans, says it all.

If the Republican Party at the grassroots is more moderate, then it's up to them to get back control of their organization.
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#91 Enkephalen

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 12:01 AM

65,000 illegals will be displacing 65,000 legal and/or natural born citizens of this country.  We've already had two amnesty situations for illegal aliens in this country.  Why do we keep making exceptions to the the immigation laws?  When are we going to gain control over our borders in this age of terrorist attacks?

I do  not understand why we must educate Mexican citizens, provide them with scholerships, free medical care and other benefits that our own citizens either cannot obtain, or must dance through hoops to gain.  Yet we have Clinton getting a standing ovation for saying she will do this for the illegals.  Why won't she stand up for her fellow citizens -- you know, those who were on long waiting lists for years to enter this country legally, or who were born in this country?
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#92 Themis

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 07:42 AM

I agree with much of this but you are missing the point of this particular thread and this particular article which I quoted somewhere above.  This particular initiative isn't giving anybody anything - it is giving high school grads who qualify for college, people who have lived their lives here and been educated here, the chance to go on to college here.  They still have to qualify, they still have to pay for it or qualify for scholarships, etc. etc.  No freebie.  Would I prefer they weren't here in the first place?  Absolutely.  But they are, they have worked hard and they will likely eventually become productive members of society and citizens.  

I'd personally like a very tall fence the length of the borders with Mexico.   Should've had one years ago, before these kids were born.  

But in this particular instance, I'm willing to cut these kids some slack.

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#93 Enkephalen

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 10:36 AM

Respectfully, I disagree Themis.  We already have a fence along the border with Mexico that is full of holes made by illegals streaming into this country.  We have immigration laws on the books that what Clinton proposes would put holes in the law.  I am not in agreement to give this special group a "pass" simply because of the circumstances of their education and the illegal acts of their parents, or the next special group, or the one after that, or the one after that, in an endless line of special groups that we make exceptions for due to their circumstances.  There are people who are on waiting lists for years trying to come to this country legally, yet we encourage those who flaunt the laws by rewarding them for being clever or getting a high school education, or a sad story.  Every time we make a special exception to those who are here illegally, we are sending the message that the laws are not rules to abide by, but are rules that can be circumvented if only the illegal has a human interest story worthy of a politician's political aspirations.  When do we say enough is enough and actually mean what we say when we pass laws?  Until we get tough on illegal aliens who do not respect the immigration laws of this country, we can expect more of the same in the future.
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#94 Cheile

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Posted 01 August 2005 - 12:28 PM

^ well said.  thank you.

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