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The Extremely Condensed Civil War (PG-13)

History-American Civil War Humor

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#41 BklnScott

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 02:57 PM

Care to expand on that, Kosh?

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#42 Kosh

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:43 PM

It didn't make me laugh, as with most of these condenced things.
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#43 BklnScott

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:45 PM

Thanks for the clarification--It sort of sounded like maybe you were pro-Confederate or something.

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#44 Godeskian

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:07 PM

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

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#45 BklnScott

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:29 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker.  If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.

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#46 Godeskian

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:38 PM

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 01:29 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker.  If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.

Maybe, but don't make the mistake of assuming that all there was to the Confederacy was slavery, and don't fall into the trap of believing that the Union was fighting the South out of the goodness of their hearts.

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#47 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:44 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 11:38 PM, said:

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 01:29 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker.  If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.

Maybe, but don't make the mistake of assuming that all there was to the Confederacy was slavery, and don't fall into the trap of believing that the Union was fighting the South out of the goodness of their hearts.

While its ironic that the US fought a civil war over succession when the US had come into being by succeeding from the UK in the first place, the fact remains that slavery was a defining issue during the civil war. It was an econimic issue, it was a moral issue, it was a political issue and it was a highly emotional issue. People who argue otherwise chip at vain against this massive bedrock of reality.
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#48 Godeskian

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:57 PM

View PostTalkie Toaster, on Feb 7 2006, 01:44 AM, said:

the fact remains that slavery was a defining issue during the civil war.

May well be true, but we aren't in the civil war now. One of the advantages of it having happened a long time ago is a certain distance of perspective, and a lack of a personal stake in the event.

I can actually look at both the North and the South and what they both were and what they both were not, and not have it solely be about slavery.

ah well.  :whatsthat:

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#49 Rhea

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 07:48 PM

View Post_ph, on Feb 6 2006, 03:29 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker. If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.


Agreed.

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Edited by Rhea, 06 February 2006 - 08:27 PM.

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#50 BklnScott

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:06 PM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 01:29 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker.  If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.

Maybe,

Maybe?  Maybe?  Wow.  OK.

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but don't make the mistake of assuming that all there was to the Confederacy was slavery and don't fall into the trap of believing that the Union was fighting the South out of the goodness of their hearts.

Well, that's true--it was political.  But that can be said of any war no matter how "good" history deems it.  Nations don't go to war out of the goodness of an organ they don't possess. ;) But individuals do and my understanding is that there were many thousands of these both in and out of uniform (e.g., the abolitionists, the underground railroad, the transcendentalists in general) fighting on the Union side in the Civil War.  

Of course, the same can be said about many of their opponents--but the fact remains that they were the ones fighting for (among other things) their right to own other human beings, so I don't care if they're Scarlett and Rhett and Ashley *and* Mammy all rolled into one--They lose.  :)

Edited by _ph, 06 February 2006 - 11:08 PM.

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#51 Godeskian

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:26 AM

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

Maybe?  Maybe?  Wow.  OK.

Are you wowing me because I don't condemn a society for practicing slavery?

here's my perspective. Slavery goes back at least 8000 years. Lack of slavery isn't even 300 years old. Slavery in and of itself has been a part of human history for a lot longer than total freedom has, and I will not judge a society as 'bad' for the fact that they like almost every other society before them were slavers.

It's a convenience of modern morality that we look back on them and say 'oh, Slavers, they must have been pure evil'

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Of course, the same can be said about many of their opponents--but the fact remains that they were the ones fighting for (among other things) their right to own other human beings, so I don't care if they're Scarlett and Rhett and Ashley *and* Mammy all rolled into one--They lose.  :)

I'm cool with that. I don't support slavery, but I won't condemn them for being slavers. The notion that all men, and I do mean all men were created equal was so revolutionary at the time, i'm not sure that people nowadays can truly appreciate how radical it was.

Sure, now we say slavery is wrong (and for our morality it is wrong, despite the fact that we think nothing of modern economic slavery which is in some ways as bad as it was then. It just has a different facade these days) but back then, the notion that one person couldn't own another was incredibly new.

Edited by Godeskian, 07 February 2006 - 12:31 AM.

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#52 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 03:09 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 7 2006, 05:26 AM, said:

Are you wowing me because I don't condemn a society for practicing slavery?

here's my perspective. Slavery goes back at least 8000 years. Lack of slavery isn't even 300 years old. Slavery in and of itself has been a part of human history for a lot longer than total freedom has, and I will not judge a society as 'bad' for the fact that they like almost every other society before them were slavers.

We're talking about a war that occured 150 years ago, and not 8,000 years ago, or even 300 years ago.By the time of the civil war the abolishionist movement was very advanced. There were very few western countries still practicising slavery by this point. While I agree that judging past actions by our modern morality is a waste of time, it is a matter of record that most people found slavery wrong *at the time* as well.

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It's a convenience of modern morality that we look back on them and say 'oh, Slavers, they must have been pure evil'

No one here is arguing that everyone in the Confederacy was pure evil.

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I'm cool with that. I don't support slavery, but I won't condemn them for being slavers.

Why not- a hell of lot of people at the time did.

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The notion that all men, and I do mean all men were created equal was so revolutionary at the time, i'm not sure that people nowadays can truly appreciate how radical it was.

Who said anything about men being equal? Segregation still existed in the sixties...

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 07 February 2006 - 03:12 AM.

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#53 Godeskian

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 05:16 AM

View PostTalkie Toaster, on Feb 7 2006, 10:09 AM, said:

By the time of the civil war the abolishionist movement was very advanced.
With respect, I disagree with this assesment and would like to see your backing evidence for it.

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No one here is arguing that everyone in the Confederacy was pure evil.

I must have misunderstood the various posts telling me there was little to nothing redeemable about the south, and that it was all about slavery after all. Mea culpa.

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Why not- a hell of lot of people at the time did.

Because I lack context. Trying to condemn a society without some form of context is rather silly. Going about condemning others is a tricky business and not one I try and engage in on any sort of regular basis.

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Who said anything about men being equal? Segregation still existed in the sixties...

I said it was a radical idea, not that it was particularly well implemented. The notion that authority came from the people, rather than from the divine right was rather unique at the time.

I still think the US constitution itself combined with the bill of rights is one hell of a document, and probably the most dramatic policy document since the Magna Carta.

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#54 G1223

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 06:59 AM

Very few people who fought for the southern cause were doing so to keep slaves. They were fighting for the right for states rights over the federal government.  They felt that South Carolina had a better idea of what to do for the people of South Carolina.  They felt that a federal government which got into it's head to push a social agenda was wrong. They felt Lincoln was such a man.

To be honest if the south could have kept it's head and stayed in the government. They could lock the republicans out of power. Look how the democrats in the 1950-to 1990's ran the agenda of the country. They had the key commitees locked up. The same was true before the civil war maybe even more so.
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#55 Kosh

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:58 AM

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With respect, I disagree with this assesment and would like to see your backing evidence for it.

Ben Franklin started the abolisinst movement in the USA, at least the organised version. It was around before him.
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#56 Kosh

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:10 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:38 PM, said:

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 01:29 AM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 6 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Too many people (IMO of course) were focussed on the slavery issue as far as I am concerned. There were good things about the Confederate side, just as their were bad things about the Union side.

Um, call me crazy, Gode, but slavery's kind of a dealbreaker.  If it's pro ownership of human beings, I don't care if it's a friggin utopia--it loses.

Maybe, but don't make the mistake of assuming that all there was to the Confederacy was slavery, and don't fall into the trap of believing that the Union was fighting the South out of the goodness of their hearts.




Don't make the mistake of thinking that there was any other issue that fueled the war. People can talk about states rights or anything else, but the only real issue was slavery. The fight started when the Consitituion was drawn up, and didn't end until after 1864.


I have nothing good to say for the south. I don't understand an economy based on slavery, or even our founding fathers, who owned slaves. I've studied the war, had one college class on nothing else but the war, and I've studied the period leading up to the war. I don't think I'll ever understand how the same people who started this democacy, could "own" other people. I respect them for what they did, but it is tempered by what I know they were, slave owners.
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#57 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:29 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 7 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

With respect, I disagree with this assesment and would like to see your backing evidence for it.

Slavery had been outlawed in Sweden and her colonies by 1847
Slavery had been outlawed in Upper Canada in 1793 by the Act Against Slavery
The Slave Trade was declared illegal throughout the British Empire in 1807 with the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act
Slavery had been outlawed in Argentina by 1813
Slavery was outlawed in Gran Colombia (Ecuador, Colombia, Panama, and Venezuela) from 1821, through a gradual emancipation plan (Colombia in 1852, Venezuela in 1854)
Slavery had been outlawed in Chile by 1823
Slavery had been outlawed in Mexico by 1829
Slavery had been outlawed in United Kingdom and her Empire by 1833
Slavery had been outlawed in Denmark, including her colonies, by 1848
Slavery had been outlawed in France (for the second and final time) in 1848, including all colonies
Serfdom was abolished in Russia in 1861.

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I must have misunderstood the various posts telling me there was little to nothing redeemable about the south, and that it was all about slavery after all. Mea culpa.

They are condeming the institution, not *all* the people involved. Slavery wasn't all that the Confederacy was about but it was a pretty damn big part of it.

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Because I lack context. Trying to condemn a society without some form of context is rather silly. Going about condemning others is a tricky business and not one I try and engage in on any sort of regular basis.

What context do you require? The Confederacy was a nation that wanted to continue slavery when most of the Western world (including Imperial Russia) had outlawed it.

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 07 February 2006 - 11:46 AM.

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#58 Godeskian

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 10:03 AM

You know what, I give up. my point has been entirely lost amongst the throwing around of dates, and virtually my entire post ignored in favor of attacking one part of it.

Threads all yours.

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#59 BklnScott

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 10:07 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 7 2006, 12:26 AM, said:

View Post_ph, on Feb 7 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

Maybe?  Maybe?  Wow.  OK.

Are you wowing me because I don't condemn a society for practicing slavery?

While I find that "wowable," it was more because you felt you couldn't simply agree with the statement:

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I don't care if it's friggin utopia--if it's pro ownership of human beings, it loses.

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here's my perspective. Slavery goes back at least 8000 years. Lack of slavery isn't even 300 years old. Slavery in and of itself has been a part of human history for a lot longer than total freedom has, and I will not judge a society as 'bad' for the fact that they like almost every other society before them were slavers.

Well, as others have noted, the South and its slaves stood in stark contrasat to most Western countries at that time.  

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It's a convenience of modern morality that we look back on them and say 'oh, Slavers, they must have been pure evil'

I made no such argument, Gode.  I don't believe in "pure evil."  Just people.  

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I don't support slavery, but I won't condemn them for being slavers.

I must say, that's a little too nonjudgemental for my taste.  I'm all for puting the shoe on the other foot, but some things cross a line, and slavery is one.  It's always wrong.  Never right.  And a society built on it deserves to fall, as the south did.  

G1223 said:

Very few people who fought for the southern cause were doing so to keep slaves. They were fighting for the right for states rights over the federal government.

One of which was the right to keep their slaves, no?  

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They felt that South Carolina had a better idea of what to do for the people of South Carolina. They felt that a federal government which got into it's head to push a social agenda was wrong. They felt Lincoln was such a man.

Wow...  The contemporary parallels are just eerie.

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#60 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 11:40 AM

View PostGodeskian, on Feb 7 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

You know what, I give up. my point has been entirely lost amongst the throwing around of dates, and virtually my entire post ignored in favor of attacking one part of it.

Threads all yours.

If you don't want to debate the issue thats fine, but your arguments as I understand them most certainly have been addressed.

Edited by Talkie Toaster, 07 February 2006 - 11:46 AM.

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