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Dixie Chicks Get Nixed?

Dixie Chicks War Protesters Iraq

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#21 Banapis

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 12:33 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 09:07 AM, said:

Now, I WONDER if anything would have been cancelled had it involved celebrities who SUPPORTED the War?????
According to Mr Petroskey, "If they were two very public pro-war supporters, I would have done the same thing."

For some reason, I'm less than persuaded by Petroskey's after-the-fact statements.  And neither is Tim Robbins.  He told the New York Times in a telephone interview, "I don't buy his backpedaling on this issue."

Banapis

Edited by Banapis, 19 April 2003 - 12:34 PM.


#22 jon3831

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 12:45 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

Spin it how you want, the fact is that she's being punished for not supporting Dubbya's War.
So, while Ms. Maines has the right to express her displeasure at US foreign policy, her fans don't have the right to express their displeasure at Ms. Maines?

I honestly don't see the censorship here. Everything that's been done has been done by either individuals or corporations (which, if my understanding is correct, is the same as an individual under the law). There has been no government edict saying that "The Dixie Chicks shall not be played here!" (If there had been, you bet I would be protesting this, but that isn't the case here)



On another issue:

Mr. Petroskey Apologizes to Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon

The Letter

Quote

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is a very special place - a national treasure - and my responsibility is to protect it. Politics has no place in The Hall of Fame. There was a chance of politics being injected into The Hall during these sensitive times, and I made a decision to not take that chance. But I inadvertently did exactly what I was trying to avoid. With the advantage of hindsight, it is clear I should have handled the matter differently.

Yep. He should have.

[EDIT] for clarity

Edited by jon3831, 19 April 2003 - 12:51 PM.

"The issue is not war and peace, rather, how best to   preserve our freedom."
                    --General Russell E. Dougherty, USAF

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#23 Uncle Sid

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 12:47 PM

Quote

<snip> tendency to behave like BULLIES toward anyone who has the unmitigated gall to disagree with Dubbaya's War.

I have to take you to task on this one.  By their ability to command the attendance of crowds at mass events, the emotional effect of music on people to ameilorate their moods, and the fact that they happen to have control of the the microphone plugged into a 20 zillion watt amplifier pointed at these crowds, I'd say that music stars have a great deal of power.  There are a great many bands, groups and individual artists who use their venues as a platform for their own personal views, and their fans are actually the ones paying to sit there and have to listen to it.  I wouldn't go so far as saying that these politically-minded artists are bullies, but they certainly have the "bully pulpit".  If I had been at that concert wanting to listen to some music and I agreed with the war, I'd be very annoyed that I had to have that message blasted into my head at 80 decibels.  I might feel a little bullied by that.

Artists, especially recording artists with large followings are not these powerless little rebels, they're big business.  It just so happens that unlike other businesses, no one seems to think much of them having their own political views and using their own considerable power of money and mass appeal to move their own agendas.  I'm not saying that I disagree with all of their causes, but people who rail against the rich tend to forget that these people are rich, only frequently louder and more ostentatious than even your standard issue corporate exec.  

Quote

Apparently, I was mistaken when I thought people listened to music because they like the music. Unless having an unpopular politcal viewpoint causes a sudden drop in your musical talent. Is that what happens then, you disagree and your musical abilities take a hike?

What is the measure of musical talent?  The ability to play an instrument skillfully?  Mastery of lyrical prose?  I submit that in the cases of most musicians, it is more than that.  Good music plays to your emotions.  That is why a musician tends to have a style of their own.  It's not just the words or the sounds, it's the whole package.  People patronize music wanting to feel a certain way.  What is the difference between Dixie Chicks songs and folk songs?  It's the Dixie Chicks.  That's why people are paying to see them instead of listening to listening to just any old country music.  What happens if the Dixie Chicks suddenly aren't who you thought they are.  Then you aren't feeling so good about them any more, are you?  If it was all about "just the music", then you could argue that someone like Charles Manson could be a successful artist no matter what he did if he happened to have the skills to play and/or sing masterfully.  

No one will argue that the Dixie Chicks are professional-grade musicians.  But being a professional musician does not mean that people have to like your music.  It's not all about image, but that is a part of it.
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#24 Banapis

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:08 PM

jon3831, on Apr 19 2003, 09:29 AM, said:

So, while Ms. Maines has the right to express her displeasure at US foreign policy, her fans don't have the right to express their displeasure at Ms. Maines?
Of course they have that right.

Just as people had the right to either cheer or jeer Micheal Moore at the Oscars.  The problem here is there is no way to gauge consumer displeasure of Ms. Raines.  If her music was still playing and sales dropped, then we would know consumers are displeased.  But here, her music has been silenced so we have no way of knowing how much the drop in sales has to do with consumer displeasure.

I do disagree with you about the censorship issue.  Celebrities' opinions, rightly or wrongly, carry a lot of weight.  That's why Pepsi likes celebrities in their ads.  That's why you find actors involved in the political scene doing prowar ads.

We have here a celebrity who voiced an antiwar/anti-Bush opinion.   The result was that broadcasting corporations pulled her music from the air.  What other celebrity wants to willingly call down the same punitive measures on themselves from the broadcasters?  They have been silenced, not because they fear listeners will reject their music, but because they fear they will be shut out of the marketplace by the corporations holding the keys.  Thus, antiwar musicians have been effectively silenced.  Prowar types may continue to speak freely.  That looks like censorship to me.

Quote


Thanks for the link, jon.  It's interesting to read that Petroskey's current defense of "baseball and politics don't mix" directly contradicts his invitation to Ari Fleisher to speak at the Hall and his announcement, "We are thrilled to welcome him to Cooperstown and hear his perspective on life in the White House and the current political scene which, of course, includes the war on terrorism."

Banapis

Edited by Banapis, 19 April 2003 - 01:20 PM.


#25 MegL

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:40 PM

Question to the peanut gallery - how many people here know the history of the musical group the Dixie Chicks, prior to what happened in London, and how many people know all of what Ms. Maines actually said at the concert in question? Also, do we really know that all C&W radio stations aren't playing the band or do we assume this because we heard about it some place?

First, I know that I don't know what Natilie Maines said exactly - I've just read the highlights of what she said, that hit the major news sites. Going by the reported comments, I wasn't that impressed with her views. She didn't say she didn't support the War because it was wrong but that she didn't support it because she didn't like how it made Europeans not like her, because she was an American.  Then she changed her mind and tried to appologies several times for her comment and then, after realizing she wasn't going to be forgiven, decided to go back to her first viewpoint and decided to diss fellow C&W singer Toby Keith for being too Hawkish in one of his songs in a recent interview (in other words, she can express her views but he needs to tone it down because she disagrees with him?)  :suspect:.  Personally I find Ms. Maines a rather shallow person who doesn't have much conviction to her own views, if she's going to back down so quickly from them. IMO had she stuck to her guns, the C&W community boycott wouldn't have been quite as succesful as it seems to have been (but that is a "seems to" because I've not seen any hard facts to back up that it really has worked all that well).

That said, IMO I'm not too sure that what happened here really had anything to do with Free Speech and might instead have been a moment of "the straw that broke the camels back" instead. This is where the history of the Dixie Chicks comes into play. Due to the bands winning the Grammys in February, CMT did a show chronicling their history. I actually saw that show several times and what struck me about the band was that A) this is a band that had been controversial for years, though not in the political sense (actually I don't think they'd ever made their politics all that clear in the past) and B) that Martie Maguire and Emily Robison, the two sisters who make up the majority in the band, have a ruthless streak when it comes to making the band succesful and keeping control over things. I also thought sisters kicking the original lead singer out of the band, just one day after they finally got the major recording contract the three of them had been pursuing for almost ten years, was pretty darn cold :(

Anyway, the Dixie Chicks started out as a accoustic, ultra traditional, Bluegrass quartet and have ended up being a C&W/Pop cross over trio. That's a huge shift in music, fan base, and overall public persona.   As well, the World Tour the band is now on looks to have been constructed to help distance them from their country roots, with the band having planned to support PETA in a ad campaign (an campagin nixed after London) and having all of the opening acts in the U.S. being folk or pop/rock (a very unusual for C&W artists to do). I don't think with all of this going on it's all that big of a surprise that their fans are possibly fed up with the bands never ending re-invention.  IMO, C&W music fans aren't that naive and they may have finally realized after London that the band was pretty much tossing them out for greener pastures, so to speak, and it was time for they, the fans, to let them know what they thought about it.

I realize what I'm thinking here is just a theory but I'm not sure I'm that far off the mark. I've lived most of my life around C&W music fans and they tend to be very loyal to their band and artists but also expect that loyalty to be returned.  IMO I think the Dixie Chicks don't really have that loyalty to return back (at least at the moment) but instead are focused on having the most profitable and diverse career they can have. While I have nothing against a band doing that (more power to them), I also can't fault their fans for feeling betrayed. Yet I do think the media, in a frenzy to show how they band is being "slighted," has skipped over this aspect of what is going on.



Meg

PS: Interesting URL I found to a OpEd type piece on the situation http://www.cmt.com/n...ne.032003.jhtml

PPS: I should explain why I watched the Dixie Chick history show to begin with, seeing I don't listen to their music  :angel:.  My brother-in-law is a fan (or was - I've not asked him his opinion on this controversy) and mentioned to me that he thought Natalie was a better singer than the original lady she replaced. I could tell from the way he said it that there was something controversal going on, so I decided to watch the CMT show and find out about the band. While I think my B-in-law is probably correct that the band did the right thing creatively by letting the original singer go, I was really bothered by the fact that according to her, she was never given a chance to try and change her style before being given the boot (on top of this she was obviously older and less photogentic than the sisters or Ms. Maines are and the cynic in me had to wonder if she was really let go because of her singing style or because she wasn't really commercial enough to get to the next level of success the sisters were aiming for :angry: )  :(.

#26 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 01:41 PM

Once again I find myself in agreement with Banapis:

Quote

We have here a celebrity who voiced an antiwar/anti-Bush opinion. The result was that broadcasting corporations pulled her music from the air. What other celebrity wants to willingly call down the same punitive measures on themselves from the broadcasters? They have been silenced, not because they fear listeners will reject their music, but because they fear they will be shut out of the marketplace by the corporations holding the keys. Thus, antiwar musicians have been effectively silenced. Prowar types may continue to speak freely. That looks like censorship to me.

It looks like it to me too.

Again, anyone can "spin" it how they want.  The lesson is that woe betide any public figure that dares not support Mister Warmonger's efforts because they will be stricken down by the wrath of those who preach democracy but practice censorship.

It's very  very clear to me.
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#27 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:35 PM

:confused:.

If you're against it, then don't buy Lipton iced tea in protest. Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?

I'm also not sure how you can blame Bush or the government for this. Is there any evidence they're behind this?

As far as we can tell, they didn't do anything to help or hinder the Dixie Chicks.

What was Lipton Iced Tea to do?

-- Bush has an approval rating above 75%. I can't find the exact figure, however.
-- Corporations are (and should be) bottom-line based.
-- With those 75% who approve of Bush, the Dixie Chick's comments burn, and everybody knows about them. Even if those quotes are taken out of context, the perception is still there.
-- Therefore, using the DC's is likely to hurt Lipton Iced Tea.

Also:

It's Lipton's commercial, it doesn't belong to the Dixie Chick's. Corporations can and do scrap commercials for any or no reason.

Doesn't Lipton Iced Tea have the right to free speech to? Can't they decide they don't want a controversial spokesman?

The moral of the storry, I suppose, is this: If you're a celebrity, be prepared to accept the consequences of your speech. The consumer and big business will hold you accountable.

And, by the way, for those of you who support Lipton's actions, why not go buy some as some positive feedback?

<Side Note: By definition, it's only censorship if it's done by the government, not by a corporation. This isn't censorship by any definition of the word, any more than it was for record companies to not play certain titles after 9/11>
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#28 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:36 PM

Quote

Lil: But that really isn't the issue apparently. Because the NUAmericaPolitik is "Dubbaya's Way or the Highway".

This is the same president who said that every dissenter has his or her right to protest and is doing their job as Americans to express their opinions.  It just happens that this time they just happen to be terribly wrong.  I mean yeah that sounds like the words of a *real authoritarian* there.
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#29 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:43 PM

^

That's true too.

I haven't seen Bush say or do anything that endorses or practices censorship. He's said consistently that protestors are doing their duty as Americans to dissent (or similar verbiage).

If there's a villian of this piece, then it's Lipton. The government appears to be uninvolved.. which makes calls of McCarthyism odd. IMO.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#30 DWF

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:49 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Apr 19 2003, 10:19 AM, said:

Doesn't Lipton Iced Tea have the right to free speech to? Can't they decide they don't want a controversial spokesman?


<Side Note: By definition, it's only censorship if it's done by the government, not by a corporation. This isn't censorship by any definition of the word, any more than it was for record companies to not play certain titles after 9/11>
This isn;t entirely true, networks have censors, which operate at both the script level, and work to edit movies, and TV shows that we see.

And companies don't have free speech, only the people who work for them do. ;)
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#31 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 05:56 PM

Quote

This isn;t entirely true, networks have censors, which operate at both the script level, and work to edit movies, and TV shows that we see.

True, they're called censors. The whole "What is censorship?" thing is interesting, but probably a side bar here. I really shouldn't have brought it up. ;).

Quote

And companies don't have free speech, only the people who work for them do. ;)

Not sure if you're joking or what... what exactly do you mean? :confused:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#32 Talkie Toaster

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 06:03 PM

Who are the Dixie Chicks?
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#33 DWF

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 06:05 PM

^^^I've tried to start threads about censorship on the Slipstream, but they never went where I wanted them to go. :(

And what I meant was, no company can speak for all of it's employees. This is even true for reviews of TV shows, and movies. They come with the disclamer: "The views expressed in the article, do not represent the views, of all of our employees." That disclamer, to me means that no company, and no one person in the company can speak for all of the employees. ;)
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#34 G1223

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 06:09 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 07:16 AM, said:

I see McArthyism is alive and well.


Disagree with your government, be labeled unpatriotic and find yourself blacklisted.


Not that I need to say it:  VERY DISAPPOINTED!

But unfortunately not surprised.:(
Gee when did they reform HUAAC? Did I miss something?



I did not say that the DC's could not speak their point of view. But I was never informed that since I disagreed with them I had to listen to them.

Should I have freedom to buy as I see fit or should I be forced to buy the product of someone I disagree with?

Are corporations forced to keep a spokesman?woman who would casue them to loose money? I mean Anyone can go buy a jar of ice tea but they just easily can buy generic over lipton.  

So if this bothers you avoid lipton products. But do try to place this as anything but say something a majority thinks is right and not have to face the penalty for speraking out.


If you folks like them then buy the albums just do not force the rest of us to put up with them. That is fair isn't it ?
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#35 Rov Judicata

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 06:15 PM

TT-- I'll let someone else field that. They're country music performers with a history of controversy. Somebody else can fill in the rest. ;).

Quote

^^^I've tried to start threads about censorship on the Slipstream, but they never went where I wanted them to go. :(

Thread hijacking is ugly. ;).

Quote

And what I meant was, no company can speak for all of it's employees.

Ah, okay....

What I meant was this:

Lipton Iced Tea, as a corporation, has the right to show any commercial, no commercials, or to make commercials and not use them. As long as they obey the terms of whatever contract or agreement was drown up, they're within their legal and moral right to do anything they want. In fact, I would imagine that the DC's still got most or all of their paycheck from this commercial... so they're not suffering because of this.

The fact that some radio stations have stopped playing their songs should be of far more concern to them.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#36 Kosh

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 09:22 PM

jon3831, on Apr 19 2003, 04:29 AM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

Spin it how you want, the fact is that she's being punished for not supporting Dubbya's War.
So, while Ms. Maines has the right to express her displeasure at US foreign policy, her fans don't have the right to express their displeasure at Ms. Maines?

I honestly don't see the censorship here. Everything that's been done has been done by either individuals or corporations (which, if my understanding is correct, is the same as an individual under the law). There has been no government edict saying that "The Dixie Chicks shall not be played here!" (If there had been, you bet I would be protesting this, but that isn't the case here)



On another issue:

Mr. Petroskey Apologizes to Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon

The Letter

Quote

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is a very special place - a national treasure - and my responsibility is to protect it. Politics has no place in The Hall of Fame. There was a chance of politics being injected into The Hall during these sensitive times, and I made a decision to not take that chance. But I inadvertently did exactly what I was trying to avoid. With the advantage of hindsight, it is clear I should have handled the matter differently.

Yep. He should have.

[EDIT] for clarity
As long as Lipton pays them, they have the right not to air the comercial. I would still do it, but I have a bad thing for Ms Maines.












:wideeyed:  < "They do music too!!!!
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#37 Kosh

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 09:25 PM

Talkie Toaster, on Apr 19 2003, 09:47 AM, said:

Who are the Dixie Chicks?
Nucountry. These girls can play. I'm not a big fan, but I can respect the talent.

http://dixiechicks.launch.yahoo.com/
Can't Touch This!!

#38 Lover of Purple

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 09:41 PM

Just want to interject something here. Since I may be ONLY person here who listens to country music stations. I can tell you that the six I listen to pulled the Dixie Chicks off AFTER they were swamped with phone calls. So, I just want to say it wasn't the stations deciding alone the listeners made their desires known. Now, they be "rednecks" according to at least one poster here, but they do have  a right to protest against the Chicks. And I'm not real happy with the "redneck" label. It's  use in this thread is similar to other racial slurs as it was used as an insult. I've seen no complaints about that use.

Lipton's coporate officers have a right to not use the ad if nothing else for economic reasons. It's a smart move businesswise. I think assuming they had political reasons is low and unfair. We don't know and already people are ready to fry them over it. Corporations have rights too.

As far as I am concerned, yeah she has a right to say what she wants. What got her into so much trouble was saying it in London, I think. I didn't care either way. They are great performers and I didn't throw away my CDs! But the "rednecks" have rights too...or do we forget that? Or do some feel only liberals or anti-war people have rights? Sometimes I wonder when I read comments on the internet and in the papers.

Last thing and I'll leave you to it. With freedom of speech comes responsibility. You or I can say what we want, but we are responsible for our actions..just as she was.

Now, I'm outa here. ROAD TRIP!!!! :D :D :D

#39 Guest-AleisterCrowley-Guest

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 10:10 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 08:21 AM, said:

I'll see your poppycock and raise you a b*llsh*t.

This is back door censorship.

Oh sure, pay LIP SERVICE to the right to say what you want but make a few calls and *poof* there go the ads.

As for sales, on THAT one of course I would agree with you.  My comments about McArthyism are directed SOLELY at the Lipton gig.  If I hadn't made that clear before I apologize.  I was not in any way talking about cd sales (unless, God forbid, it turns out that music sellers are feeling coerced into pulling their stuff which is a different thing), JUST the Lipton gig.

I'll see your "b*llsh*t" and raise you a "balderdash."

If I read that report correctly, Lipton nixed the adverts due to fear for their sales.  Simple...that's an economic decision.

You're seeking conspiracies.  Can you show a conspiracy between Lipton and the radio stations?  Or is this all simply about money?  Yes, I'm afraid so.

Edited by AleisterCrowley, 19 April 2003 - 10:36 PM.


#40 Bossy

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 10:39 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Apr 19 2003, 05:25 AM, said:

Once again I find myself in agreement with Banapis:

Quote

We have here a celebrity who voiced an antiwar/anti-Bush opinion. The result was that broadcasting corporations pulled her music from the air. What other celebrity wants to willingly call down the same punitive measures on themselves from the broadcasters? They have been silenced, not because they fear listeners will reject their music, but because they fear they will be shut out of the marketplace by the corporations holding the keys. Thus, antiwar musicians have been effectively silenced. Prowar types may continue to speak freely. That looks like censorship to me.

It looks like it to me too.

Again, anyone can "spin" it how they want.  The lesson is that woe betide any public figure that dares not support Mister Warmonger's efforts because they will be stricken down by the wrath of those who preach democracy but practice censorship.

It's very  very clear to me.
Isn't that exactly what you are doing? Spinning this to reflect your view points?

If I may paraphrase, it can't possibly all about money. Its all about the big people involved in the nation wide conspiracy to silence anyone who doesn't agree with the President.

Did I get that wrong? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying to me. I'm sure you will correct me if I am wrong. ;)

Bossy

Kryptonite, silver bullet, Buffy? Dammit, what does it take to keep you in the grave? - John to Scorpy

And what the hell is Succubitch doing here? - Lorne

Captain, your presence here has not been overly meddlesome. - Ambassador Soval

.... it'll only induce me to acts of eloquence and mayhem. - Hawk



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