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What If? (#2)

Religion Wicca What If?

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#1 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 12:53 PM

For the purposes of this exercise, consider "world religion" to mean the following (and this pretty much excludes  my own faith from the title, so its not a standard definition, but... for this exercise let's go with it)

1. Adherents on all continents
2. A coherent recognizeable unity
3. At least one major country having wicca as its dominant faith, and its leaders mostly wiccan.

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#2 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:14 PM

Hmmm...a wiccan culture would not be one based in science or technology. It would hold reverence for nature and spirituality. Medicine I'm thinking would be more of a holstic/alternative variety. In some respects I think they'd be better guardians of the planet in ecological terms than we are.
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#3 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:24 PM

Why?

I'm going to challenge this assumption, because I don't know of any religion that does not have some sense of leaning on a power greater than man - be it nature, Supreme Deity or deities - and as such, tends to have some reticence toward science and medicine, at least.  I'd like to think that a greater reverence toward nature would ensue - but then... people have to live somewhere.... and the greater reverence toward nature could actually mean being less competitive militaristically.

Just stirring the pot a bit... ;)

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#4 Mooky

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:53 PM

QueenTiye, on Aug 9 2005, 01:24 PM, said:

the greater reverence toward nature could actually mean being less competitive militaristically.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm reminded of the following lyrics from the most important song of the 20th century:

from Imagine by John Lennon said:

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

Edited by Dizaster Overkill, 09 August 2005 - 01:53 PM.


#5 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 01:59 PM

It was a beautiful song (one of my favorites!), and I can certainly imagine it... :)

HOWEVER- for this thread, we have to explain how it would exist, and how it relates to Wicca as a religion, and what would other religions and countries dominated by other religions have to say about it....;)

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#6 Nikcara

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:07 PM

What makes it so hard to say about Wicca is that there are so many varitations on Wicca.  Personally, it really gets to me when someone says they're Wiccan but that they don't believe in any higher power.  That makes as much sense to me as saying you're Christian but believe that Jesus was just another guy.  However, even within the "traditional" forms of Wicca there are many differences, possibly more so than any other religion.  Since most people don't seem to know what Wicca itself is, even fewer can tell the difference between pictiwita and Strega (the second link provides a brief overview of many different types)

Overall I wouldn't think it would be all that much different.  More reverance towards nature - probably more lands kept natural (ie wildlife parks) porportionally than other countries, holisitic medicine would have more respect than it does here.  Also probably wouldn't have as strict laws (if any) in regards to sex (why we have any such laws, I don't know).  Different holidays would be celebrated...people would likely have Yule off but not Christmas, for example.  I think science would continue to progress just fine, but they would probably emphasis things like green chemistry whenever possible and minimize animal research.
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#7 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:13 PM

Quote

Why?

I'm going to challenge this assumption, because I don't know of any religion that does not have some sense of leaning on a power greater than man - be it nature, Supreme Deity or deities - and as such, tends to have some reticence toward science and medicine, at least. I'd like to think that a greater reverence toward nature would ensue - but then... people have to live somewhere.... and the greater reverence toward nature could actually mean being less competitive militaristically.

Just stirring the pot a bit...

You ole "pot stirrer" you :D  I'm not sure what you mean on some of this...AKA "why" for instance...Why what?

Where did you get from my post that wiccans don't believe in a Supreme deity or deities? They worship the godess and nature as a living entity in it's own right (hense why I said ecologically they might do a better job than we do). It's a toss up on that point as it would depend on whether they embraced technology enough to use it as a tool to keep the land cleaner or rejected it outright and chose to live a very simple, low tech existence. Given the size of the world population, low tech would be a bad choice I'm thinking. Would they be vulnerable military standpoint, probably. Alot would depend on if they had rich natural resources or a strategic location. Usually countries with desirable resources or land are more vulnerable to threats from aggressive neighbors.
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#8 QueenTiye

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:19 PM

Lin731, on Aug 9 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

Quote

Why?

I'm going to challenge this assumption, because I don't know of any religion that does not have some sense of leaning on a power greater than man - be it nature, Supreme Deity or deities - and as such, tends to have some reticence toward science and medicine, at least. I'd like to think that a greater reverence toward nature would ensue - but then... people have to live somewhere.... and the greater reverence toward nature could actually mean being less competitive militaristically.

Just stirring the pot a bit...

You ole "pot stirrer" you :D  I'm not sure what you mean on some of this...AKA "why" for instance...Why what?

Why wouldn't it be science & technology based? For that matter, what does that even mean?

Quote

Where did you get from my post that wiccans don't believe in a Supreme deity or deities? They worship the godess and nature as a living entity in it's own right (hense why I said ecologically they might do a better job than we do).

Oops.  Bad wording on my part.  I meant - this aspect of Wiccan religion is not different from most others - it is not unique in belief in Deity - so there's no reason to assume that it would have less interest than other religious societies in science and technology.

Quote

It's a toss up on that point as it would depend on whether they embraced technology enough to use it as a tool to keep the land cleaner or rejected it outright and chose to live a very simple, low tech existence. Given the size of the world population, low tech would be a bad choice I'm thinking. Would they be vulnerable military standpoint, probably. Alot would depend on if they had rich natural resources or a strategic location. Usually countries with desirable resources or land are more vulnerable to threats from aggressive neighbors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yep.  But, would something in the philosophy make them more inclined than less to be facilitators of other nations, rather than competitors with other nations?  

QT

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#9 Mooky

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:23 PM

QueenTiye, on Aug 9 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

how it relates to Wicca as a religion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It doesn't.  That was part of John's vision:

Quote

And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Edited by Dizaster Overkill, 09 August 2005 - 02:23 PM.


#10 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:32 PM

Quote

Why wouldn't it be science & technology based? For that matter, what does that even mean?

I don't know for sure that it wouldn't simply based on the available technology of other countries but wiccans have an attitude about the Earth that is very similar in nature to native americans so I don't see them being a big manufacturing giant because it harms the planet and to wiccans, that's a horrible thing.

Quote

Oops. Bad wording on my part. I meant - this aspect of Wiccan religion is not different from most others - it is not unique in belief in Deity - so there's no reason to assume that it would have less interest than other religious societies in science and technology.

I'd have to differ with you on this point based on the wiccans I know. Christians, muslims, jews etc...they (in my experience) don't view the planet in the same context as wiccans do. The other religions have reverence for it but wiccans believe deeply that everything is a living entity, every rock, bush, blade of grass has it's place in the grand scheme and should be treated with the deepest respect.

Quote

Yep. But, would something in the philosophy make them more inclined than less to be facilitators of other nations, rather than competitors with other nations?

Wiccans believe that whatever you do for good or ill carries it's own karma and that if you use it for ill, it returns to you X fold. So to do damage to others is to bring harm to yourself.
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#11 Mooky

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 02:49 PM

Nikcara, on Aug 9 2005, 02:07 PM, said:

Since most people don't seem to know what Wicca itself is

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Then here's some edumacations fer 'dem.

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Dual meaning of the Triquetra from the Museum Of Talking Boards said:

Christian Symbolism:  The Triquetra represents the Holy Trinity: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The unbroken circle represents eternity. The interwoven nature of the symbol denotes the indivisibility and equality of the Holy Trinity. It symbolizes that the Holy Spirit is three beings of power, honor, and glory but is indivisibly one God.

Pagan/Wiccan/Goddess Symbolism:  The Triquetra represents the threefold nature of the Goddess as virgin, mother and crone.  It symbolizes life, death, and rebirth and the three forces of nature: earth, air, and water. The inner three circles represent the female element and fertility.


The Power Of Three will set you free.

#12 Nonny

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 06:50 PM

Lin731, on Aug 9 2005, 11:13 AM, said:

Quote

.... and the greater reverence toward nature could actually mean being less competitive militaristically.
Would they be vulnerable military standpoint, probably. Alot would depend on if they had rich natural resources or a strategic location. Usually countries with desirable resources or land are more vulnerable to threats from aggressive neighbors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessarily.  The US has so many Wiccan soldiers that the Army commissioned a Wiccan chaplain.  As far as I know, he is still an Army chaplain, and all attempts by certain Christian groups to get rid of him haven't worked.  

Anyway, having a greater reverence toward nature can just as easily mean being more prone to defend yourselves and your land.  

Nonny
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#13 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 06:57 PM

Hey Nonny,
I didn't mean they would be less likely to put up a fight because of their wiccan beliefs but the premise is a country that is Wiccan. In that context (to me) it wouldn't be about willingness to defend the land but more about the industrial capacity to defend it effectively. As I said in an earlier post, I don't see a Wiccan based country being big manufacturers, mass producers but they might very well import what they needed in that respect from other countries (aka..defense technologies). Also how much defense they'd feel obliged to have might well rest on what resources their country possessed that hostile neighbors might want. A country with sought after resources or a strategic location might find itself needing a stiffer defense than a country that doesn't possess things coveted by other nations.
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#14 emsparks

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 07:10 PM

^^^
Ever hear of;
The battle of the Teutoburg Forest in A.D. 9 which halted Roman expansion;
or
A queen of one of the Celtic tribes of Britain, by the name of Bodica.. ...
Sparky::

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#15 Nonny

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 07:28 PM

Lin731, on Aug 9 2005, 03:57 PM, said:

Hey Nonny,
I didn't mean they would be less likely to put up a fight because of their wiccan beliefs but the premise is a country that is Wiccan. In that context (to me) it wouldn't be about willingness to defend the land but more about the industrial capacity to defend it effectively. As I said in an earlier post, I don't see a Wiccan based country being big manufacturers, mass producers but they might very well import what they needed in that respect from other countries (aka..defense technologies). Also how much defense they'd feel obliged to have might well rest on what resources their country possessed that hostile neighbors might want. A country with sought after resources or a strategic location might find itself needing a stiffer defense than a country that doesn't possess things coveted by other nations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem!  I'm thinking of a small country that successfully defended itself without an army or an air force upon declaring its independence 14 years ago because it was able to rely upon its natural boundaries.  Slovenian truck drivers drove full trucks into the mountain passes to block them, and that kept the Yugoslav Army from invading.  I don't remember what they did to stop the air attack, but it was effective too.  I'm not saying Slovenia is Wiccan, but I'm pointing them out because they have natural defenses in the Julian Alps, and used them effectively.  You do the best with what you have.  

Come to think of it, the Slovenians successfully defended their villages from the Turks for centuries by building their churches on the highest ground and bonfires on the mountain peaks.  When the Turks came, the bonfires were lit, the people barracaded themselves in the churches, and the Turks rode round and round till they got bored and left.  Doing the best they could with what they had.  Of course, they were still stuck with the Austrians, but hey.  

But, no, I don't have an answer for an enemy with greater techical resources.  :(

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#16 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 08:49 PM

Quote

No problem! I'm thinking of a small country that successfully defended itself without an army or an air force upon declaring its independence 14 years ago because it was able to rely upon its natural boundaries. Slovenian truck drivers drove full trucks into the mountain passes to block them, and that kept the Yugoslav Army from invading. I don't remember what they did to stop the air attack, but it was effective too. I'm not saying Slovenia is Wiccan, but I'm pointing them out because they have natural defenses in the Julian Alps, and used them effectively. You do the best with what you have.

Come to think of it, the Slovenians successfully defended their villages from the Turks for centuries by building their churches on the highest ground and bonfires on the mountain peaks. When the Turks came, the bonfires were lit, the people barracaded themselves in the churches, and the Turks rode round and round till they got bored and left. Doing the best they could with what they had. Of course, they were still stuck with the Austrians, but hey.

Sometimes it's not how much of what you have but how well you use it. It's always impressive to see cunning, natural defenses and strategy overcome what seems overwhelming odds. I seem to recall a battle reinactment of some sort against Rome on the History Channel, (I think it was Hannibal and carthage) that hinged on using the natural geography of the area and a very slick strategy to beat a far larger Roman force.


Nonny Aint Hypotheticals a B**ch :D  :wacko:  That's the bite of them, not having a concrete set of factors to draw on (they live in X country and their economy's based on Y) kinda stuff...Too many unknown variables to factor in but it's still fun to speculate.

Quote

Ever hear of;
The battle of the Teutoburg Forest in A.D. 9 which halted Roman expansion;
or
A queen of one of the Celtic tribes of Britain, by the name of Bodica.. ...

Yes I seem to recall Boudicca, didn't she lead a very sucessful uprising of some sort against Rome? Is that the battle that was lost because her army had ringed the parameter of the battle field with wagons loaded with their families and left them nowhere to retreat to?

The Battle at Tuetoburg Forest...Hmmmm, that one I'd have to look up.
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#17 Nonny

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 08:55 PM

Lin731, on Aug 9 2005, 05:49 PM, said:

Nonny Aint Hypotheticals a B**ch :D 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but some of the puppies are cute.  ;)  

Nonny
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#18 Shalamar

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:17 PM

Being Wiccan, and some one who owes their life to advances in medicine/science/technology- I see no divide- I think that wiccans would make/require that manufacturing/tech/ etc be as "Green" as possible, that the Earth and all of us on it be considered before profit and 'ease of doing things'.

The laws would be a lot different - very libertarian type - minimal gov't beauracracy - gender 'roles' would be practically non existant - gov't would have no say in marriage - personal responsibility would be highly emphasised -  it would definitely be a all volunteer army -
The three most important R's
Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

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#19 Lin731

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:23 PM

Quote

Being Wiccan, and some one who owes their life to advances in medicine/science/technology- I see no divide- I think that wiccans would make/require that manufacturing/tech/ etc be as "Green" as possible, that the Earth and all of us on it be considered before profit and 'ease of doing things'.

The laws would be a lot different - very libertarian type - minimal gov't beauracracy - gender 'roles' would be practically non existant - gov't would have no say in marriage - personal responsibility would be highly emphasised - it would definitely be a all volunteer army -

Let me know when your country's open for business, I think you'd have eager citizens! I know I like the sound of it!
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#20 tennyson

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 09:23 PM

Boudicca was a Celtic Queen in Britan who led an intially sucessfull uprising against Roman rule in the early years AD.
The Teutoburg Forest was Rome's greatest defeat, an appointed proconsul who only got the job due to neopotism led three Romans legions into what is now the Black Forest in Germany and got them slaughtered to a man because he let himself be drawn into and surrounded in rugged terrain.
As for how these relate to Wicca, since the people the Romans were fighting were Celts and followers of Germanic gods such as Wotan, I really don't see. Wicca is a relatively modern outgrowth of various neopagan ideas that can be traced back to the ninteenth century and no farther and if it is to have any religous identity on its own outside of being a clearing house for anyone with neopagan beliefs then it has nothing to do with either the Celts or the Germanic peoples aside from being based somewhat on romanticized myths of preChristian peoples.
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