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What If? (#2)

Religion Wicca What If?

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#41 Nikcara

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 11:04 AM

I don't think a Wiccan country would fall behind in science, I just think they would have a different emphasis.  Shalamar pointed out that she's Wiccan and wouldn't want to get rid of the technology that saved her life.  I'm also Wiccan and am planning on applying to an MD school of medicine once I finally finish college.

What I see a Wiccan country doing is putting a lot more focus and attention into things like biofuels for cars (corn is a lot more abundent than oil, plus you can just grow more if supply starts running low).  Medically, I see them having more DOs than MDs for doctors (if you want to know what a DO is, click here).  Besides, there is a lot of science put into figuring out how to clean up messes we've already made as well as figuring out how to not make new ones.  Would there be fringe groups who want there to be little technology?  Sure....but they exist already, both in this country and in others.  Few people actually listen to them though, and the cracknuts like ELFwho do things like torch Hummer dealerships really are simply doing themselves and there cause a disservice.

Also, on the topic of Wicca being relativly new....that is both true and untrue.  There was certainly a revival of old pagan beliefs dressed up for a more modern culture, and that is certainly new.  However, many of the old stories and beliefs continued much longer than most people realize.  It was within the last 300 or so years that a couple tried to leave their child on their doorstep because they were convinced it was a changling, for example.  It was within the last 400 or so that the last human sacrafice to old Celtic gods was recorded.  If you want sources, The Book of Druidry by Ross Nichols is the best I can do at the moment.  So to have a direct link with the very oldpractices isn't as hard as many people like to think.

However, there are certainly modern differences.  Human sacrifice, practiced by druids of old and other Celtic people, would be looked down on as simple murder.  Animal sacrifice is equally looked down upon.  However, just because the traditions have changed doesn't mean it's an entirely new religion.  Judism and Christianity both used to sacrifice animals as well.  Also, many Wiccans (such as myself) don't rely soley on modern authors - I look quite closely at the old myths and believe in things like Abred, the Circle of Necessity - basically that we get reincarnated in this world many times until we learn enough to be born into Gwynedd. the Circle of Blessedness.  Other's don't.  But it is very difficult to simply say that it is just a modern religion - I think of it more as a very old religion that has been recently updated.
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#42 Gefiltefishmon

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 11:29 PM

Raina, on Aug 10 2005, 05:53 PM, said:

Quote

Yep. But I do think that Gelfitefishmon said the reverse - that Wiccan philosophy would lead to 3rd world conditions...
I know, but I was just pointing out that people in 3rd world countries may live off the land more than people in developed countries, but they're not anymore environmentally conscious. If the situation in Uganda's any indication, they're actually less environmentally conscious and basically just rape the land for all the crops they can get.

So a Wiccan country may have the same level of technology as a 3rd world country, but the living conditions may be better because there won't be widescale environmental destruction (which leads to erosion and the absolutely dreadful road conditions).

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Well, that IS what I meant - What you said. it would be "3rd world" to our 1st world way of thinking because we would see ourselves (America) as superior because we have things like the internet, cell phones, jiffy lube and 24 hour dunkin donuts - and "they" as in the example of Bhutan, see themselves as having the better way of life because they DO NOT have things like the internet, cellphones, jiffy lube and 24 hour dunkin donuts. It's all perspective.

A thinly populated, agrarian society does not by any means need to be IGNORANT of technology, they just choose not to use it, beyond those things which make life easier - but those things which seperate man from nature, those things which insulate the soul against the world, I would think that a wiccan society would eschew those things in favor of things which promote the idea of nautral order and cyclic nature....

I'm not the clearest of writers, unfortunately, so it's liable to come out any-which-way when I say it....
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#43 Nonny

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 10:52 AM

Shalamar, on Aug 9 2005, 10:42 PM, said:

and it's generally said as more than three - Maiden/ Mother /Crone and she who is unseen - Green God (laughing god/ blue god) / Summer Lord / Horned God ( He who is sacrifice and sacrificer in one / and Star child ( Serpent child/ he who waits in the Summerland ) - but not by all, by any means.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Green Man rituals were still alive in parts of Europe between the world wars.  Is the Green Man the same as Green God?  

Shalamar, on Aug 9 2005, 10:42 PM, said:

Wicca is a religion of small groups - at the base is the coven, generally no more than about 13 people - but then again you have also Solitaries, those who- by accident, deliberate choice, or lack of a near by coven - worship alone. And I have participated in many a ritual where there were forty or fifty of celebrants.

There is historical precedent for 'super' covens - often called grand covens - (where covens join together to celebrate as lone large or synchronized group )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This appeals to me.  

Shalamar, on Aug 9 2005, 10:42 PM, said:

But there is no official hierarchy- no pope, no gathering of bishops, or religious elders -heck there isn't even a "Great Man" much less a "Great Book" - no bible, no Buddah/Christ/Mohammed - no word of god writen down for the masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This really appeals to me.  

Elara, on Aug 11 2005, 06:01 AM, said:

~.~ Granted, Wicca the term is fairly new, but the concept, the beliefs behind it are older than Christianity.

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Some have been practiced continuously for tens of thousands of years in remote places.  The Bear Ceremony comes to mind.  

Elara, on Aug 11 2005, 06:01 AM, said:

As for "confronting it's own ramifications", kind of hard to do when it can almost be dangerous to admit that one is Wiccan. Think Salem, that attitude is not so far gone.
Myself, I am more a practicing Celtic (Wiccan) Pagan (Druidic systems) and solitary because there are no others nearby that I am aware of. Hard to find people that feel they must hide. My son has taken on my beliefs, so he is a born Celtic Pagan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also hard to find them when you don't know where or how to look.  :pout:  

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#44 darthsikle

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 09:45 AM

Then the new Pope could arrange a new Crusade and take care of this new heathen country
Goodbye.

#45 Nonny

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 11:04 AM

darthsikle, on Aug 15 2005, 06:45 AM, said:

Then the new Pope could arrange a new Crusade and take care of this new heathen country

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would enjoy leading my fellow heathens against the forces of evil that tried to steal my soul when I was a child.  :tyr:  

Nonny the Brave
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#46 eloisel

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 01:50 PM

tennyson, on Aug 10 2005, 02:23 AM, said:

Boudicca was a Celtic Queen in Britan who led an intially sucessfull uprising against Roman rule in the early years AD.
The Teutoburg Forest was Rome's greatest defeat, an appointed proconsul who only got the job due to neopotism led three Romans legions into what is now the Black Forest in Germany and got them slaughtered to a man because he let himself be drawn into and surrounded in rugged terrain.
As for how these relate to Wicca, since the people the Romans were fighting were Celts and followers of Germanic gods such as Wotan, I really don't see. Wicca is a relatively modern outgrowth of various neopagan ideas that can be traced back to the ninteenth century and no farther and if it is to have any religous identity on its own outside of being a clearing house for anyone with neopagan beliefs then it has nothing to do with either the Celts or the Germanic peoples aside from being based somewhat on romanticized myths of preChristian peoples.

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Don't know about that.  Germanic tribes (Saxons and Jutes) were the bigger population in Britain until 1066 after which the Normans pretty much slaughtered them.  I believe those tribes had a horned god, and Wiccans can trace back its origins to a horned god on cave dwellings.  However, I'll have to research the subject again as it has been a few decades since I last looked into it.

I would think a Wiccan society would have a great deal of sympathetic magic going on with a very positive outlook on the world in general.  I say positive because sympathetic magic gives a person a feeling that they are not powerless and can change their circumstances non-violently.  More than likely the citizens would be quite a social bunch as they are quite into feasting and ritual.  As the rede requires not causing harm, the citizens would probably be more cooperative in helping each other succeed rather than be more competitive to see who can get the most toys.  Pollution would probably be non-existent or close to it as natural aspects of the country would get more respect and care than they do now.  I don't know that manufacturing would be out but would probably be developed differently to do little or no harm to the environment.  While I still wouldn't adopt the Wiccan religion as my own, I could see myself living and thriving in such a country because of all the religions, Wiccan's would not require me to join or participate in anything I might find objectionable while not ostricizing me for not doing so.

#47 waterpanther

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 06:45 PM

Quote

Don't know about that. Germanic tribes (Saxons and Jutes) were the bigger population in Britain until 1066 after which the Normans pretty much slaughtered them. I believe those tribes had a horned god,

The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of Britain had been Christian for five or six hundred years by the time William Bastard showed up.  Their last King but one, William's cousin, was Edward the Confessor, who became Saint Edward almost immediatelyafter his death.  While the Normans managed to wipe out a fairly large percentage of the Anglo-Saxon nobility, they did not massacre the general population.  There'd have been no one to pay them taxes if they had.  

Quote

I would enjoy leading my fellow heathens against the forces of evil that tried to steal my soul when I was a child. 

I'll follow Nonny the Brave!

Signed,

Waterpanther the Bold  :xena:
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#48 Elara

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 02:23 AM

Nonny, on Aug 14 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

Also hard to find them when you don't know where or how to look.  :pout: 

Nonny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


~.~ I found out my young co-worker wants/thinks she is, but she's not, not really. Anyway, I found this out because she happened to catch a glimpse of a (henna) tatoo on my wrist. However, finding any that admit to it or even (truly) follow it is about impossible. I do know of a few on the web that are friends of mine, but none here at home.
I prefer being a solitary Pagan, growing up under the organized faith of Christianity left a bad taste, but I do enjoy talking to my internet friends about it and how they feel/believe.

Didn't mean to take this OT, sorry. :)
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#49 Nikcara

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:34 AM

I've had enough experiances with someone pretending to be Wiccan to shock people.  One of my friend's sister once went up to me and as a way of introduction said "I'm Wiccan, so I'll put a curse on you if you piss me off".  I just about slapped the wench, told her that if she tried she'd better stay up worrying cause what I would do in response would be worse than whatever the three fold law had in store for her.

However, I shall stop derailing the thread now.  I've been somewhat tempted to join a coven myself, but for the most part the ones that I've found haven't been a good fit for me and it IS hard to find a real witch.
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#50 Lin731

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 11:15 AM

We actually have a wiccan center her in my little, backwater town. The locals aren't happy about it though...They think Wiccans are witches and no doubt have visions of them sacrificing hamsters in their backyard.
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#51 Rhea

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 01:10 PM

QueenTiye, on Aug 9 2005, 09:53 AM, said:

For the purposes of this exercise, consider "world religion" to mean the following (and this pretty much excludes  my own faith from the title, so its not a standard definition, but... for this exercise let's go with it)

1. Adherents on all continents
2. A coherent recognizeable unity
3. At least one major country having wicca as its dominant faith, and its leaders mostly wiccan.

QT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think it would probably be a good thing, since Wiccans have so much awareness of and thoughtfulness about the consequences of negative actions.

Plus, they practice a religion far older than Christianity, and one which respects the earth. Good all the way around.

And Wiccans don't feel any huge urge to make everyone else practice their religion, unlike say..Christians and Muslims.  :angel:

Edited by Rhea, 16 August 2005 - 01:13 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#52 Mooky

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 01:33 PM

Rhea, on Aug 16 2005, 01:10 PM, said:

I think it would probably be a good thing, since Wiccans have so much awareness of and thoughtfulness about the consequences of negative actions.

Plus, they practice a religion far older than Christianity, and one which respects the earth. Good all the way around.

And Wiccans don't feel any huge urge to make everyone else practice their religion, unlike say..Christians and Muslims.  :angel:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I like that.  Of course I also like John Lennon's vision of a world without religion.  That, IMHO, would be even better.

Edited by Dizaster Overkill, 16 August 2005 - 01:38 PM.


#53 Elara

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:25 PM

Lin731, on Aug 16 2005, 11:15 AM, said:

We actually have a wiccan center her in my little, backwater town. The locals aren't happy about it though...They think Wiccans are witches and no doubt have visions of them sacrificing hamsters in their backyard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:howling:

~.~ ah yes the good ole hamster sacrifice. Do you have any idea how many it takes for a good blood sacrifice? or is that the vampire part? or the devil? huh, I'm not sure, but it must be one or all because that's what a Pagan is and does.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~

Hi Nikcara,

You nailed it with "pretending to be Wiccan". No true Wiccan would make such a threat.
El
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#54 Mystery

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:50 PM

I can think of several valid, real world reasons why this would never be a good idea.

1.) Like Christianity, there is no one baseline of thought or theology in Wicca.  As it stands, Wicca is a grab bag of shoddy theosophical themes, myopic and solipsistic viewpoints of ancient pagan practices geared into 20th century viewpoints, and a cadre of authors who are either burned out druggies from the 60s are central air junkies who couldn't survive 24 hours in the rainforests of my homeland.

2.) History has shown that religion and politics never mix and that religion will suffer every time.  Basing a nation's government upon any particular set of theology is receipe for disaster.  I would like to point out that Christianity was originally a agape love cult until certain individuals took it down a bad road.  I see no reason why unscrupulous or psychotic individuals could not do the same with Wicca.

3.) As to Wiccans and their stewardship of the earth, I fear this more than anything else.   From what I have read, Wiccans share a viewpoint on ecology that is 30 years out of date and based upon principles so shaky that it boggles the mind.  I can elaborate on this further if pressed, but suffice to say that Wiccans, by virtue of their religious beliefs, have no greater claim of knowing what's good for the earth than the USA's EPA.  That is to say, none at all.  We can do without that that sort of behavior.

4.) Just to the side, and no offense to the Wiccans here, but if you belief your religion is thousands of years old, you are dreadfully mistaken.  It dates back to the 1940s in England and Mr. Gerald Gardner. Taking on sanitized, 20th century versions of pagan rituals and beliefs.  I think also Mr. Gardner liked to beat the naked bottoms of his high preistesses, but you don't see much of that in Wicca anymore.  Additionally, I have had conversations with devout Wiccans and I see little difference between them and many Christians...when pressed about the validity of their beliefs, they always fall back on "well, it's just what I believe."  Means nothing.

Corwin said:

While there is no direct link between Wicca (yes, a modern religion), there is much more than anecdotal evidence to provide links that it is firmly based in much older pagan religions dating to pre-history. This does not in any way invalidate Wicca as practiced today any more so than modern day Christianity invalidates itself from the way it was practiced nearly 2000 years ago.

Firmly?  No.  We don't know much about pagan rituals and beliefs in Europe because most were destroyed or transformed into Christian rituals.  You cannot say this because you have no comparision. Wicca is an attempted revival.  Christianity, on the other hand, has a unbroken line of development over last 2000 years, traced out by people who could write..  Big difference.  I've seen too many try to link Wicca with old pagan practices.  You don't want to link to those practices, because those pagans believed in human sacrifice and other unsavory items modern Wiccans would like to forget about.

5.) Nor were these pagans peaceful tree huggers.  They made war on one another with regularity.  They took what they wanted from the land with impunity.  I see nothing noble about them, and see no reason why it would make a good government form in this day and age.

6.) Not realted but should be said: I like the song "Imagine" too...but I don't take it as a blueprint for anything.  Lennon was a horse-head from the 60s who cheated on his first wife to shack up with that hideous, talentless beast Yoko Ono.  Good songwriter?  Yeah.  Genius with vision?  Hardly I think not.
Extreme times that told me
They held me down every night
I didn't have much to say
I didn't get above the light
I closed my eyes and closed myself
And closed my world and never opened
Up to anything
That could get me alone
---Moby

#55 Mooky

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:30 PM

Mystery, on Aug 16 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

Genius with vision?  Hardly I think not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Your opinion.

#56 Rhea

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:37 PM

Mystery, on Aug 16 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

4.) Just to the side, and no offense to the Wiccans here, but if you belief your religion is thousands of years old, you are dreadfully mistaken.  It dates back to the 1940s in England and Mr. Gerald Gardner. Taking on sanitized, 20th century versions of pagan rituals and beliefs.  I think also Mr. Gardner liked to beat the naked bottoms of his high preistesses, but you don't see much of that in Wicca anymore.  Additionally, I have had conversations with devout Wiccans and I see little difference between them and many Christians...when pressed about the validity of their beliefs, they always fall back on "well, it's just what I believe."  Means nothing.

That is both facile and inaccurate. While it is true that Wicca is an attempt to cobble ancient beliefs into a modern form, the worship of the female principle dates back to prehistory.

And if you want to talk about cobbled together belief systems, let's start with Christianity, where a large number of pagan traditions were "borrowed" for Christian purposes  - no one knows when Christ was born, and December 25th was chosen to replace the old Winter Solstice celebrations. Even the image of the sacrificed god who dies and is reborn predates Christianity by thousands of years - check out Mithras and Horus, son of Osiris, for parallels.

There is a lot in any religion that is borrowed from the religious cults that preceded it. To denigrate Wicca on the grounds that it's borrowed from earlier religions is weak at best.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#57 Mystery

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:39 PM

Dizaster Overkill, on Aug 17 2005, 12:30 AM, said:

Mystery, on Aug 16 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

Genius with vision?  Hardly I think not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Your opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Just as valid as yours, thank you.
Extreme times that told me
They held me down every night
I didn't have much to say
I didn't get above the light
I closed my eyes and closed myself
And closed my world and never opened
Up to anything
That could get me alone
---Moby

#58 Mystery

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:42 PM

Rhea, on Aug 17 2005, 12:37 AM, said:

Mystery, on Aug 16 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

4.) Just to the side, and no offense to the Wiccans here, but if you belief your religion is thousands of years old, you are dreadfully mistaken.  It dates back to the 1940s in England and Mr. Gerald Gardner. Taking on sanitized, 20th century versions of pagan rituals and beliefs.  I think also Mr. Gardner liked to beat the naked bottoms of his high preistesses, but you don't see much of that in Wicca anymore.  Additionally, I have had conversations with devout Wiccans and I see little difference between them and many Christians...when pressed about the validity of their beliefs, they always fall back on "well, it's just what I believe."  Means nothing.

That is both facile and inaccurate. While it is true that Wicca is an attempt to cobble ancient beliefs into a modern form, the worship of the female principle dates back to prehistory.

And if you want to talk about cobbled together belief systems, let's start with Christianity, where a large number of pagan traditions were "borrowed" for Christian purposes  - no one knows when Christ was born, and December 25th was chosen to replace the old Winter Solstice celebrations. Even the image of the sacrificed god who dies and is reborn predates Christianity by thousands of years - check out Mithras and Horus, son of Osiris, for parallels.

There is a lot in any religion that is borrowed from the religious cults that preceded it. To denigrate Wicca on the grounds that it's borrowed from earlier religions is weak at best.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



You are correct, but means nothing in the long run.  Throwing rocks at another religion doesn't put yours in a better position.  Neither is a good system for government in my opinion.  BUT...at least Christianity has a tracable pedigree and a history of running governments, however good or ill.  Wicca does not.

Incidentally, claiming that goddess worship goes back far does nothing to validate modern Wicca.  Wicca also has god worship too, I believe.  Besides, I can say that since Christianity has a Yule festival (Christianity) like pagans did, therefore Chrisitiantiy is valid.  See?
Extreme times that told me
They held me down every night
I didn't have much to say
I didn't get above the light
I closed my eyes and closed myself
And closed my world and never opened
Up to anything
That could get me alone
---Moby

#59 waterpanther

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:50 PM

Quote

Christianity, on the other hand, has a unbroken line of development over last 2000 years, traced out by people who could write.

Untrue.  

"Christianity" went into the Jewish War as a sept of Judaism with James, brother of Jesus, at its head.  It came out on the other side with its original documents lost,  transmogrified by Paul into a Neoplatonic mystery cult.  What we have left of Jesus' actual teachings--as opposed to what was taught about him--is to be found in bits and snippets in the Gospels and at least putatively in the Epistle of St. James.  

Quote

You don't want to link to those practices, because those pagans believed in human sacrifice and other unsavory items modern Wiccans would like to forget about.

Uhhmm, Paulist Christianity is predicated on human sacrifice, specifically the sacrifice of the King or a valid substitute in times of grave danger to nation or people.  The Eucharist is a reenactment of that sacrifice, and more than one smartass has pointed out that it's also a vestige of ritual cannibalism.
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#60 Mystery

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:53 PM

waterpanther, on Aug 17 2005, 12:50 AM, said:

Untrue. 

"Christianity" went into the Jewish War as a sept of Judaism with James, brother of Jesus, at its head.  It came out on the other side with its original documents lost,  transmogrified by Paul into a Neoplatonic mystery cult.  What we have left of Jesus' actual teachings--as opposed to what was taught about him--is to be found in bits and snippets in the Gospels and at least putatively in the Epistle of St. James.

Still debated.  That's from the Holy Blood Holy Grail camp.

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Uhhmm, Paulist Christianity is predicated on human sacrifice, specifically the sacrifice of the King or a valid substitute in times of grave danger to nation or people.  The Eucharist is a reenactment of that sacrifice, and more than one smartass has pointed out that it's also a vestige of ritual cannibalism.

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And they've watered it down.  So?  Does that somehow make Wicca better choice for government, because that's what we're talking aobut here.
Extreme times that told me
They held me down every night
I didn't have much to say
I didn't get above the light
I closed my eyes and closed myself
And closed my world and never opened
Up to anything
That could get me alone
---Moby



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Religion, Wicca, What If?

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