Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Texas Becomes a Majority-Minority State

Texas Non-White Majority Hispanic Population Latinos

  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#21 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,634 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 11:27 AM

I think there's less of a tendency to learn English with illegals who may feel themselves on some kind of extended working vacation here.  If we've got all these businesses that think they can't run without hiring migrant workers, and paying them substandard wages off the books, then let's get a guest worker policy or change immigration quotas, or do whatever is necessary to get this workforce on the tax rolls with a hope of staying if they learn English.

Otherwise, let's crack down on illegals AND those who look the other way and hire them.

Are we really so inconvenienced because we run across a few people who don't speak our language?  If the day is coming when Hispanics and Anglos reach population parity in a number of states, what's wrong with a little bilingualism?

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#22 Zwolf

Zwolf
  • Islander
  • 3,683 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 11:31 AM

I agree with LOTS.  I sometimes use "Asian" to describe the race (since I don't kow any other readily-understood word, and know that "Oriental" refers to furniture and such, not people), but not "Asian-American"; they're just plain Americans who happen to be of the Asian race.  I also use black, not African-American, because most black people I know have been over here as long as any of the rest of us; why predicate it?   Manute Bol I'd consider "African-American," since he was born in the Sudan but lives here now.  Most people, though... eh, just plain ol' American.

I used to know a girl who was Egyptian, and she'd always get ticked about that.  "I'm the real African-American in this town, because I was born in Egypt, and people don't even recognize that!"  :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#23 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 12:13 PM

Cardie, on Aug 12 2005, 04:27 PM, said:

Are we really so inconvenienced because we run across a few people who don't speak our language?  If the day is coming when Hispanics and Anglos reach population parity in a number of states, what's wrong with a little bilingualism?

Cardie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes we are inconvenienced if native English speakers have to learn another language in order to manage basic communication with people who immigrate from another country, legally or not, and if government officials, policemen, firemen, people in general who may have no linguistic skills, are forced to attempt to learn another language in order to protect them and if we have to produce the most basic documents in two languages in order to accommodate them.  It's not a few people.  It's a humongous number.   Now if the Hispanics were bilingual, I wouldn't have any problem with the idea of learning Spanish to enjoy the language and maybe to get more out of a trip to a store or restaurant or movie or magazine or whatever.   I also wouldn't feel as strongly if we were facilitating the transition for new arrivals and people who had been here a couple of years had learned enough English to function in the community in English.  It's the idea of having to learn Spanish to communicate with somebody who has lived in the country for 10 years and is mentally capable of learning how to function in English but who doesn't do so that sets me off.  

Note:  I am not asking all immigrants to learn enough English to write a thesis.  I'm asking them to learn enough English to do their job in English and function in the community in English.  It doesn't even have to be perfect English.  I don't mind a few mangled verb tenses and such (well, I do from native English speakers but that's another subject!!).  Speak both languages at home.  Raise bilingual children - that's a good thing!  

I'm a former resident of El Paso and Los Angeles and have dealt with the problem all my life - and it isn't any better now in Nashville, where people who can't even speak proper English are having to learn Spanish!   There are lots of areas in this city many, many miles from the Mexican border where nothing but Spanish is understood.  

I went to high school in El Paso and many, many of my classmates were Hispanic.  Many only spoke English, others were bilingual.  At that point I found Spanish intriguing. That was before I started running into Hispanics driving the bus that went to my (mostly Anglo) neighborhood and the airport who didn't speak English and really started me ranting on the subject.  

Themis
Cats will never be extinct!

#24 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,634 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 12:36 PM

I'd agree that if an Hispanic person's job involves lots of communication with others, then they need to learn English.  But if a country has a considerable number of folks who speak Spanish only and certain jobs work better if an Anglo learns Spanish, then I just look at that as specialized job training.  Police officers don't complain that they have to learn to shoot or nurses that they have to learn to insert IVs. If in some areas rudimentary Spanish is an additional skill, then I don't see the problem.

Heck, I learned Latin and wish I'd learned Spanish--although I seem to be picking it up from all the bilingual signs that have been cropping up.

Cardie
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#25 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 01:17 PM

One reason that many illegal immigrants do not learn English readily is that doing so would bring them into contact with people who might report them to the INS and get them deported.  You need an SS # to enroll in a class; you need a state-issued ID for a bank account, for a scholarship and/or loan.  For many, it's a Catch-22 situation.
Posted Image

#26 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 01:50 PM

waterpanther, on Aug 12 2005, 01:17 PM, said:

One reason that many illegal immigrants do not learn English readily is that doing so would bring them into contact with people who might report them to the INS and get them deported.  You need an SS # to enroll in a class; you need a state-issued ID for a bank account, for a scholarship and/or loan.  For many, it's a Catch-22 situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Shame what happens when one breaks the law and becomes a criminal, isn't it. Illegals get no sympathy from me.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#27 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 01:54 PM

Themis, on Aug 12 2005, 12:13 PM, said:

Yes we are inconvenienced if native English speakers have to learn another language in order to manage basic communication with people who immigrate from another country, legally or not, and if government officials, policemen, firemen, people in general who may have no linguistic skills, are forced to attempt to learn another language in order to protect them and if we have to produce the most basic documents in two languages in order to accommodate them.  It's not a few people.  It's a humongous number. 

Themis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Couldn't have said it better myself. I only wish this was the actual case, sadly though it isn't. It has become the politically correct thing to expect Us (meaning the citizens of the USA) to learn a foreign language to accomadate those who migrate here and refuse to learn English.

I remember hearing about a school in Florida where the spanish kids wanted all their tests in spanish, or something like that. Sorry, but that is just BS! Unless the test was for a spanish class, it should be in English.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#28 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:02 PM

Quote

Illegals get no sympathy from me.

I understand entirely, given that from my people's point of view, all persons in the United States who are of European descent are either illegal aliens or the descendents of same.

When are you starting Cherokee classes?  :devil:
Posted Image

#29 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:08 PM

waterpanther, on Aug 12 2005, 02:02 PM, said:

Quote

Illegals get no sympathy from me.

I understand entirely, given that from my people's point of view, all persons in the United States who are of European descent are either illegal aliens or the descendents of same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Sorry but I'm not in that group...My ancestors came here LEGALLY.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#30 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:11 PM

Quote

Sorry but I'm not in that group...My ancestors came here LEGALLY.

Which tribe gave them a visa and citizenship, if you don't mind my asking?
Posted Image

#31 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:22 PM

waterpanther, on Aug 12 2005, 02:11 PM, said:

Which tribe gave them a visa and citizenship, if you don't mind my asking?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I see what you mean now...I'm not too familiar with my history but wouldn't the native Americans helping those first settlers stay alive during the first winter constitute "granting them immigration".

Or course what we did after that (by WE I'm referring to those settlers) is an entirely different matter.

So, rather then have a repeat of history, your suggestion would be to bar immigrants period?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#32 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:24 PM

waterpanther, on Aug 12 2005, 02:02 PM, said:

Quote

Illegals get no sympathy from me.

I understand entirely, given that from my people's point of view, all persons in the United States who are of European descent are either illegal aliens or the descendents of same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm curious. What is your position of those descendents of immigrants that married native Americans, and had children?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#33 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:36 PM

Actually, the "first settlers" at Jamestown wound up at war with Powhatan's people.  But no, charity isn't adoption.  

Actually, what I'd like to see is either a more open, legal immigration policy and/or a policy of intensive investment designed to produce living-wage jobs in the places current immigrants want out of.  Illegal immigration is driven by demand from employers in the US; if jobs were not available, people would not come.  That simple.  On the other hand, American investment in, say, Mexican maquiladoras is producing humongous profits for the shareholders and CEO's, and damn next to nothing for the Mexican employees.  These plants, along with NAFTA, were pitched as the salvation of Latin American economies, and it ain't happened yet.

As for folks who are already here, I'm for amnesty.  It's not, after all, practicable to send European-Americans "back where they came from," and I'd be reluctant to toss out good friends and relatives, in any case.   ;)

Edited to add:

Quote

I'm curious. What is your position of those descendents of immigrants that married native Americans, and had children?

Most Native American nations tend to count those descendents as members, and the original spouses as adopted members.  Otherwise, what would we do about Quanah Parker?  And my cousin, who's a Parker on her dad's side?  Or me, mostly Scottish on my father's side?   Which is not to say there aren't some Native American racial bigots; I'm sorry to say that there are, and some of them are fairly prominent.  But by and large Native American culture has been welcoming to outsiders.

Edited by waterpanther, 12 August 2005 - 02:55 PM.

Posted Image

#34 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 03:31 PM

Cardie, on Aug 12 2005, 05:36 PM, said:

I'd agree that if an Hispanic person's job involves lots of communication with others, then they need to learn English.  But if a country has a considerable number of folks who speak Spanish only and certain jobs work better if an Anglo learns Spanish, then I just look at that as specialized job training.  Police officers don't complain that they have to learn to shoot or nurses that they have to learn to insert IVs. If in some areas rudimentary Spanish is an additional skill, then I don't see the problem.

Heck, I learned Latin and wish I'd learned Spanish--although I seem to be picking it up from all the bilingual signs that have been cropping up.

Cardie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It isn't "lots of communication with others," it's any communication with others.  Let's talk janitors - who apparently aren't supposed to throw out anything not in a trash can.  Fair enough.  But when it doesn't fit in a trash can...why should I have to learn the Spanish word for "trash" to write on the thing instead of just writing "trash."???  Part of what I mean by wanting people to be able to do their job in the language of the employer.  Police officers expect to learn to shoot.  Nurses expect to learn to insert IV's.  None of them expect to have to learn another language to do their job.  (except for a minimal amount of Latin for the nurses.)  It's worse in this part of the country where some huge percentage of the population doesn't graduate from high school.  They didn't complete their education in English, now they have to learn Spanish on their jobs?????  No, that just does not compute.  

Why should I have to get a book on how to speak to a housekeeper (not that I'll ever have one) in Spanish?  Why doesn't the housekeeper get a book on how to speak to me in English so she can ask me if I want the dishes washed???  

Should provisions be made to help new, legal immigrants learn the language and the local laws and such?  Sure.  Should I have to learn Spanish to tell someone who has lived here for 10 years to throw out the trash?  NO!!!!!  (And perhaps if they had learned basic English, they wouldn't still have a job throwing out the trash...).

Why should people living in an Anglo area, or people getting on a bus at an airport in a US city, have to learn Spanish to ask a question of the bus driver???

Why should I have to listen to a parking lot attendant in an American city barking instructions to me in Spanish?  (I decided that if he wouldn't speak English, neither would I so I answered in German...)

I appreciate that people come here to better themselves - why can't part of that be absorbing enough English for their job?

Of course there's exploitation on both sides of the border.  My lawn guy used to talk about how one of his guys flew home to Mexico every year and had to sneak back...illegal of course.  But I was paying the lawn guy the same amount I paid the previous lawn guy - the previous guy did all the work himself.  This one sat in the truck while his three wetbacks did all the hard work.  Heaven knows what he was paying them...  I went back to somebody who did the work themselves.  These people who hire the illegals are probably happy learning rudimentary Spanish so they can exploit these unfortunate people, which is another side of this huge, miserable mess.   We have to stop the employers to stem the immigration. I could definitely support a guest-worker program - as long as that program had a provision for learning a minimal amount of English!

A waiter from the former Yugoslavia working in Europe can do his job in maybe six languages.  I was in tour groups in Europe made up of French, German and Americans or British - none had a problem communicating with a waiter, who was probably from Yugoslavia in those days.  Why is it asking too much if a janitor here to learn the English word for "trash"?????

Every group that has ever come to this country in waves of immigration to escape poverty at home for new opportunity here - besides the Hispanics - has made it their business to learn English.  Germans learned English.  Greeks learned English.  European Jews learned English.  Vietnamese learned English.  Chinese learned English.  Cambodians learned English.  They got by on subsistence jobs while they learned and went on to something better.  Why are Hispanics different?  Ah, yes more of them are here illegally and can't enroll in classes, etc.  But, always assuming they are literate in Spanish (admittedly not a sure thing), they can get a Berlitz book or tapes or something and make their own study groups.  Most are Catholic - why don't the churches arrange English lessons or study groups??  

What can I say - it's been a pet peeve since I was around 12.  I am considerably older now.

Themis
Cats will never be extinct!

#35 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 03:52 PM

I have a question: do these population counts include illegal immigrants?

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#36 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 04:03 PM

Possibly a handful.  But most illegal immigrants are not going to fill out and return a government form that gives their names and addresses, for obvious reasons.
Posted Image

#37 Shoshana

Shoshana
  • Islander
  • 4,033 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 04:17 PM

What's strange i that I feel guilty for not knowing Spanish.

I've lived in Texas most of my life and have picked up some Tex-Mex but I understand way more than I speak. Almost everyone I know is bilingual and altho I can carry on a weird kinda conversation with people who don't speak English (but do actually understand English way more than you'd expect) and speak Spanish to me and I reply in English, I can see where knowing Spanish would be useful here.

You want something special on a fast food meal? You're more likely to get it correct sometimes if you can tell the person in Spanish. (Or in my version of Spanish "No Mayonaise por favor, si mustard" Which is grammatically hosed, but seems to work if you tell them in English and they look baffled. I always ask first if they speak Spanish tho - sometime's they're just baffled!)


And yes, I had Latin - 5 years. Which is great if I can SEE the words - we never learned to speak Latin. But it helps in guessing what's going on.

Our neighborhood is almost entirely minority - Vienamese, Chinese, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, African American, Hispanic, Korean. It's cool to watch the Vietnamese gather together in someones's garage to visit - they use the garage like a big front porch. No cars, spic and span with indoor furniture in it. A whole bunch of the kids play basketball together and they all speak English. The kids from different backgrounds seem to get along just fine.

We see women in various levels of Muslim dress too. The guys don't stand out as much.

I think it's all cool. Better than neighborhoods I've visited where everyone is homogenious.

I think almost everyone speaks English ... but I figure that's cause almost everyone here works at a tech company - AMD, Motorola, Samsung, Dell etc...

'shana

#38 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 06:04 PM

Shoshana, on Aug 12 2005, 09:17 PM, said:

Our neighborhood is almost entirely minority - Vienamese, Chinese, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, African American, Hispanic, Korean. It's cool to watch the Vietnamese gather together in someones's garage to visit - they use the garage like a big front porch. No cars, spic and span with indoor furniture in it. A whole bunch of the kids play basketball together and they all speak English. The kids from different backgrounds seem to get along just fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's a cool neighborhood.

Ya know, I'd be less beligerant on the language issue if I felt someone was trying, at least to try to learn the English needed for whatever the job.  Then I'd probably find it fun to try to learn some Spanish to talk about something else with someone new to the country.  I've mentioned voter's pamphlets in California before - the ballot in other languages, NO!!!  Those complicated information pamphlets that are in English legalese - sure.  Many native English speakers have problems with them and an educated voter is a definite plus.  

But Shana, if a waiter can't understand "no mayonnaise, please, make it mustard" in English in this country, he/she shouldn't be a waiter in this country.  That's pretty basic stuff.  Unless you are very deep in the ghetto in a Mexican restaurant - I don't think the native Mexican cuisine uses a lot of mayonnaise OR mustard!

Themis
Cats will never be extinct!

#39 Shoshana

Shoshana
  • Islander
  • 4,033 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 07:39 PM

It is a cool neighborhood. Pretty quiet - the adults keep to themselves or within their cultural groups. We didn't even realize what a diverse neighborhood it was till after we built the house and moved in. At the homeowners meetings we have everyone but the Vietnamese and Middle Easterners. They don't seem to come to meetings or block parties or anything. But then again, 3/4 of the homeowners don't show.

Themis... that was at a drivethru ... Wendy's!

I have stopped eating at fast food places (since a bit over a year ago) except for the ice cream cones at McDonald's so I don't know how it is now. The better the economy the less English there is to be found at fast food places.

I've talked to quite a few Spanish speaking people and it's almost always the same problem I have - they may know some English but they don't speak it because they're too embarrassed to make a mistake. Once I garble something in Spanish, they'll attempt to meet me halfway in English.

So what if I ask for a green goat... lol. Actually my biggest problem is that if I tell someone that I don't speak Spanish - in Spanish, they'll start talking to me 100 miles an hour. In Spanish. Because I've said it so much, I don't sound like I don't speak Spanish...

I don't mind dual signs or literature or even driving tests. Because I'd rather drive in front of someone who knows the driving rules in Spanish, than one who doesn't know them at all cause they're in English! All I care is that they know the rules, can read the signs and have insurance.

Edited by Shoshana, 12 August 2005 - 07:45 PM.


#40 Rhiannonjk

Rhiannonjk

    Woof!

  • Islander
  • 1,507 posts

Posted 13 August 2005 - 07:28 AM

Quote

That's pretty basic stuff. Unless you are very deep in the ghetto in a Mexican restaurant - I don't think the native Mexican cuisine uses a lot of mayonnaise OR mustard!
Ah... yes... the point I was going to come to and completely forgot...

Now, in NC, you can find a mexican restaurant as easily as a McDonalds.  They are usually staffed by friendly guys, and the food is YUM!  If this is a side-effect of having all the immigration into the state (and NC is one of the top states for mexican immigration) then I think I can deal with it :)

***Is easily distracted***




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Texas, Non-White Majority, Hispanic Population, Latinos

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users