

Children and the Rightness of War
#1
Posted 22 April 2003 - 03:12 PM
Unfortunately CNN.com doesn't have the full report (which was actually by an ITV reporter), but I did find this item there.
Drew, you got justifiably angry when you heard that Saddam had imprisoned innocent children. And because of that anger, you jumped to the conclusion that this whole war was justified. Well, I hope these children's suffering and death from US weapons makes you just as angry, as angry as it makes me, and helps you to understand that no war can ever be as morally clear-cut as that. Was it justified to kill one group of innocent children to save another? Wars always, always kill children, maim children, orphan children, traumatize children, no matter how many other children they may save. Both sides in any war will always commit atrocities. Even the most necessary war is a necessary evil.
"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time
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#2
Posted 22 April 2003 - 04:35 PM
second rule of war, doctors can't change rule number one
third rule of war, neither can anyone else when the shooting starts
yeah, this does upset me a lot

#3
Posted 22 April 2003 - 04:43 PM
#4
Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:10 PM
I can do without your kind of attitude.
Frankly, so can the Ex Isle.
#5
Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:28 PM
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CNN, eh?
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I’m not sure how many were dropped in civilian areas. But I also hasten to point out that it was Iraq that put military equipment in civilian areas, not the US. Yes, the US is responsible for those deaths... but some of the blame does go elsewhere.
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Again, hundreds? Did you happen to catch any more precise numbers? And which village?
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They’re used because they work, and we’ve spent billions trying to get them as reliable as possible. I’ll let CJ or Jon do the heavy lifting on the details; I don’t know that much about them.
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That point I’m not ignoring, but have to defer on for now.
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That’s unsurprising, since Iraq doesn’t have them...
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Each one is a tragedy, and I don’t think anybody is disputing that.
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Not Drew, but I think a lot of us were justifying it on our sovereignty and right to enforce cease fires, lest every treaty we make become meaningless.
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Saddam *intentionally* killed children. We avoided it as much as militarily possible. More children die in a year of malnutrition in Saddam’s Iraq than the military campaign cost. <And the first person who says that the malnutrition deaths are caused by sanctions will be directed to Saddam’s palaces.>
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I think it was justified to accept collateral damage to save millions of lives.
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Agreed.
Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease. THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.
"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.
#6
Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:44 PM
Drew, on Apr 22 2003, 08:54 AM, said:
"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time
Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page
#7
Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:55 PM
Christopher, on Apr 22 2003, 09:28 AM, said:
Drew, on Apr 22 2003, 08:54 AM, said:
#8
Posted 22 April 2003 - 07:49 PM
Thanks
Lop
#9
Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:11 PM
Javert Rovinski, on Apr 22 2003, 09:12 AM, said:
My problem with that argument is that the cease fire was a UN resolution adapted by the Security Council (UN resolution 687), not a treaty made between the U.S. and Iraq.
"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson
FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade
#10
Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:15 PM
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True.
But let's look at this:
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(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;
(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;
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Which, of course, they never did.
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We already have proof that the were, in fact, constructing missiles with a range greater than 150 KM. We had that before the first shot was fired.
That alone is a violation of the cease fire.
Virtually nobody is disputing the cease fire was violated. The only dispute is whether it should actually be enforced.
Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease. THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.
"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.
#11
Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:36 PM
Javert Rovinski, on Apr 22 2003, 12:59 PM, said:
To me it seems shaky for the U.S. to legitimize going to war against Iraq by citing a UN resolution both sides have violated, especially since a majority of the Security Council disputes that Iraq posed a significant, imminent threat.
"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson
FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade
#12
Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:43 PM
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Oh? How so? It only prevented Saddam from doing things he wasn't allowed to do.
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Again, I'd like a source on the US violating the cease-fire. Perhaps they have.
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Two permanent members were selling weapons to Saddam. France actively campaigned and bribed nations to vote "No". And whether or not the security council votes or not doesn't change the fact that Iraq *did* violate the cease-fire.
Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease. THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.
"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.
#13
Posted 22 April 2003 - 09:57 PM
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Don't cease fires mean "no shooting or bombing"?
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The sanctions still forced Saddam to cut back his armed forces by a sizable amount.
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The U.S. actively coerced nations and offered economic incentives to get them to vote "Yes."
Edited by QuantumFlux, 22 April 2003 - 09:59 PM.
"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson
FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade
#14
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:00 PM
As per the Rules and terms of the cease fire.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant
TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.
When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.
All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.
My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated
Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.
#15
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:03 PM
G1223, on Apr 22 2003, 01:44 PM, said:
Edited to add:
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Edited by QuantumFlux, 22 April 2003 - 10:09 PM.
"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson
FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade
#16
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:07 PM
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It does.
http://news.bbc.co.u...000/1175950.stm
This is a BBC article that analyzes both sides.
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It said the repression amounted to a threat to international peace and security - a phrase our correspondent says is often used to justify intervention.
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The other side:
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Clearing the wreckage from a raid in 2000
Nor did it say that all necessary means could be used.
Meaning that, *again* UN members are arguing that their resolutions shouldn't be enforced.
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The fact remains that it was against UN resolutions to sell those weapons to him at all.
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Precisely. Which means the UNSC didn't decide whether Iraq was an imminent threat.. they decided who was offering the sweeter pot.
And QF is right, G.. the resolution doesn't give explicit authority to prevent the slaughter. Basically, the UN said, "You really shouldn't slaughter civilians, but we'll leave it up to others to enforce it.". To their credit, the UK, the US, and France (yes, France) stepped up to the plate.

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease. THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.
"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.
#17
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:10 PM
Basically did Iraq deliberatly violate the terms on the cease fire. YES OR NO.
I have seen you dance around the issue. Did Iraq Violate the cease fire by failing to disarm as it agreed?
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant
TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.
When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.
All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.
My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated
Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.
#18
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:15 PM
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Nope. It was to prevent Saddam from heading north and south, preventing him from slaughtering the Kurds and Shiites.
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I have seen you dance around the issue. Did Iraq Violate the cease fire by failing to disarm as it agreed?
I think QF conceded earlier that Iraq has, in fact, violated the CF....
Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease. THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.
"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.
#19
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:22 PM
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Now that is a tad bit of a twisting of the details. This occurred after the Iraqis made a gross violation of it by locking onto and firing on US/UK aircraft that were enforcing the no fly zone. Those aircraft were acting in self-defense.
-Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
- Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE
#20
Posted 22 April 2003 - 10:25 PM
G1223, on Apr 22 2003, 01:54 PM, said:
Quote
"In truth, 'too big to fail' is not the worst thing we should fear – our financial institutions are now on their way to becoming 'too big to save'." —Simon Johnson
FKA:
TWP / An Affirming Flame / Solar Wind / Palisade
Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Iraq War, Children, Rightness of War, Iraq, 2003
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