121 replies to this topic

[Lin731]

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Some people did choose, foolishly, to stay, but many poor people in NO don't have cars--or money to pay for hotels. No one thought to provide transportation out to some shelters set up further inland. Instead, they herded everyone who couldn't get out into the SuperDome--which is now turning into a nightmare.

Exactly Cardie, alot of people had no means to leave and go inland to shelters. The whole thing (IMO) was absolutely the most poorly planned and executed evacuation effort I've ever seen.

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I don't understand why the military hasn't sent transport helicopters and flown people out to ships in the Gulf, as CJ has commented. For an entire day there has been virtual paralysis in regard to getting those people still in the downtown area out.

I'm thinking alot of our military personel and equipment are elsewhere at the moment, halfway around the world fighting terrorists over there so American's can die here for lack of sufficient manpower and resources to move them out of harms way.

[QueenTiye]

There is another aspect to looting.  There are a number of people who feel like they have been shut out of things all their lives, and when opportunity strikes - they feel like they have the opportunity to "get back at" all the world by getting something for themselves.  I'd always heard about looting but never saw it until the Rodney King verdict set off looting, vandalism and riots across the country.  I remember watching and listening to people and noting that even the most vile of looters - the most opportunistic of them, seemed to be making the point that they had a right, by virtue of the unfairness of the world, to loot when the opportunity presented itself.  I saw it again when the Con Ed grid went down a year after 9/11 and pockets of looting sprung up here and there. Same mentality.

In my opinion, the mentality of people who purchase handbags from drug addicts, or bootleg dvds on the street is the same mentality of people who loot - there's an undercurrent of feeling like something isn't right with the world - something is inherently unfair - and given an opportunity to do so - they are going to make it fairer to themselves one way or the other.  Sorta a "robin hood" mentality.  There are the criminal element which outright perpetuates violence and vandalism to get what they want (but they were that way anyway - the circumstances just allow them more freedom), but then there are the regular, hardworking people with a grudge against life in general, who find themselves walking by an exposed jewelry store - and steal.  They aren't functionally doing anything different than they would have done when they opted to buy the dvd for 5 or 10 dollars, KNOWING they are illegal copies, instead of going to the store and paying 15 or 30 dollars for it (or going to the movies and seeing it for 8).

QT

[tennyson]

I'm thinking alot of our military personel and equipment are elsewhere at the moment, halfway around the world fighting terrorists over there so American's can die here for lack of sufficient manpower and resources to move them out of harms way.[/QUOTE]

Once again that is a complete non sequitor. CJ reported in the other thread that a whole amphibous ready group was leaving Norfolk yesterday. It takes time to get there and no major warships have been home-ported in the Gulf of Mexico region in a while. The carriers and thier associated ships would be where they are Iraq or no Iraq. The Navy really hasn't been stretched that much at all by this nor has the Air Force and the Coast Guard is still right where it has always been, doing its job of guarding the coast. The Coast Guard has been evacuating people as fast as they can. Guard and reserve units have been called up from all across the region including my own state and are moving, doing thier jobs as best they can. But the roads aren't going to clear themselves, helicopters can only fly so far and damaged transport hubs can only move so many people.

[Lin731]

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Once again that is a complete non sequitor. CJ reported in the other thread that a whole amphibous ready group was leaving Norfolk yesterday. It takes time to get there and no major warships have been home-ported in the Gulf of Mexico region in a while

Is it a non sequitor that thousands of guardmens are having to be redirected from fighting in Iraq (where they really shouldn't have had to be in the first place, let alone for the lengths of time they have been called upon to serve) to come BACK to the US to help out the flood victims here?

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More than 5,000 National Guard troops were called up over the weekend to assist in relief operations, despite the burden of providing troops to support operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Tens of thousands more may be called as the extent of the damage becomes clear, officials said.

National Guard officials said many of the troops mobilized for storm duty had recently returned from overseas combat zones.

Some 3,500 Louisiana National Guard troops were on active duty to help with housing, security, power generation, food distribution and debris removal, with 6,500 more available.

Mississippi called up 850 National Guard troops, and Alabama mobilized more than 1,500. Officials said nearly 100,000 additional members of the Guard from the Southeast were available on short notice.

The Alabama contingent includes military police, engineers and Special Forces who have all recently served in Iraq or Afghanistan, according to Lt. Col. Robert Horton of the Alabama National Guard.

"We are prepared to respond to any natural disaster and to support the war on terrorism," Colonel Horton said. "We just have to deal with both missions."

Any way you slice it, we have ALOT of troops and equipement in Iraq that could be useful HERE right NOW. From what I've seen in the wake of Katrina, I've never seen a more poorly executed operation. Granted there ARE special problems in dealing with this situation but the response BEFORE and after appears very slow. The state was listed a disaster area before the storm even hit and yet you had thousands stranded there for lack of transportation to move them out. I'd also think (given that we were talking about a Hurricane hitting in a low sea level area) that we'd already have had ships heading for the region BEFORE the storm hit, not AFTER. I beleive CJ ( I think it was him) ALSO questioned the lack of activity and slowness of response to the situation.

[Zwolf]

Thieves, in general, are scum.  If a person's going to steal in the first place, it's not likely to bother them much if they're taking something from someone who's already lost everything or not: all they care about is themselves.  So, a big disaster like New Orleans is nothing but a huge opportunity in the eyes of this human garbage.  

"When you want to make obscene phone calls, you go where the phone book's the thickest." - Andrew Vachss

I hope all the looters get shot.

Cheers,

Zwolf

[Shalamar]

Lin, I'm sorry but you can not blame the state's absolutely inept disaster plan on the war in Iraq, or the US military. Louisianna has never been known for planning anything well, and has deliberately, or so it seems, ignored the fact that NO is/was a disaster waiting to happen.

Edited by Shalamar, 31 August 2005 - 10:35 AM.

[Lin731]

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Lin, I'm sorry but you can not blame the state's absolutely inept disaster plan on the war in Iraq, or the US military. Louisianna has never been known for planning anything well, and has deliberately, or so it seems, ignored the fact that NO is/was a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm really not trying to lay it all at the feet of the Iraq war. There's plenty of blame to go around to be sure and at the top of the list in the inept response of the state. I'm only saying that we seem to be short on equipement and manpower that could have been used HERE if it weren't THERE. I'm also confused about why we didn't have ships moving into position before the Hurricane hit (given the potential of flooding) and how much of the state is below sea level or more efforts to evacuate residence via military transports and the like prior to the Hurricane making land and now in the wake of it. That makes zero sense to me. I'll grant you that the level of devastation is beyond what anyone expected but it appears that much of what could have been done, wasn't done at the state or Federal levels.

[Zwolf]

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I'll grant you that the level of devastation is beyond what anyone expected but it appears that much of what could have been done, wasn't done at the state or Federal levels.

***** One big problem was the fed underfunding levees and the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project.  The Army Corps of Engineers told them they needed to shore up those levees, but the fed alotted them less than 20% of what the corps said they needed.  That's bigger than the Guard being tied up in Iraq to me...

In any case, if anyone wants to help now, I found this link on Yahoo.

Cheers,

Zwolf

[D'Monix]

Lin731, on Aug 31 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

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Lin, I'm sorry but you can not blame the state's absolutely inept disaster plan on the war in Iraq, or the US military. Louisianna has never been known for planning anything well, and has deliberately, or so it seems, ignored the fact that NO is/was a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm really not trying to lay it all at the feet of the Iraq war. There's plenty of blame to go around to be sure and at the top of the list in the inept response of the state. I'm only saying that we seem to be short on equipement and manpower that could have been used HERE if it weren't THERE. I'm also confused about why we didn't have ships moving into position before the Hurricane hit (given the potential of flooding) and how much of the state is below sea level or more efforts to evacuate residence via military transports and the like prior to the Hurricane making land and now in the wake of it. That makes zero sense to me. I'll grant you that the level of devastation is beyond what anyone expected but it appears that much of what could have been done, wasn't done at the state or Federal levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No more than 50% of all National Guard Units CANNOT be deployed overseas due to the regulations under which the Guard work, the other half stays home exactly for reasons like this. 19 states are activating guard units to send down to the disaster area already, with more likely.  In total, the Guard can activate up to over 337,000 troops and their equipment.

[Lord of the Sword]

QueenTiye, on Aug 31 2005, 08:53 AM, said:

There is another aspect to looting.  There are a number of people who feel like they have been shut out of things all their lives, and when opportunity strikes - they feel like they have the opportunity to "get back at" all the world by getting something for themselves.  I'd always heard about looting but never saw it until the Rodney King verdict set off looting, vandalism and riots across the country.  I remember watching and listening to people and noting that even the most vile of looters - the most opportunistic of them, seemed to be making the point that they had a right, by virtue of the unfairness of the world, to loot when the opportunity presented itself.  I saw it again when the Con Ed grid went down a year after 9/11 and pockets of looting sprung up here and there. Same mentality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well perhaps they'll think twice about the unfairness of the world if the National Guard start shooting the looters on sight?

edited to fix typo.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 31 August 2005 - 12:14 PM.

[Lord of the Sword]

Morrhigan, on Aug 31 2005, 05:56 AM, said:

Not everyone owns a car. And what about the homeless? I've gone through times when I didn't have a working car, though I'm sure my friends would have helped me leave town if there was a hurricane on its way. I don't know what I would have done, though, if I didn't have someone I could count on to help me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. These people don't have friends? And even if they don't, is there something wrong with their legs? I know, for a fact, if I had been in New Orleans, and my car wasn't working, and I had no transporation to leave, I'd start walking. Start walking along the highways, try and hitch a ride if I could.

So the argument that they didn't have cars or transporation is bogus. If they wanted to leave they could've.

[Lord of the Sword]

QueenTiye, on Aug 31 2005, 08:53 AM, said:

In my opinion, the mentality of people who purchase handbags from drug addicts, or bootleg dvds on the street is the same mentality of people who loot - there's an undercurrent of feeling like something isn't right with the world - something is inherently unfair - and given an opportunity to do so - they are going to make it fairer to themselves one way or the other.  Sorta a "robin hood" mentality. 
QT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And when did life promise these people a rose garden?

[Rhiannonjk]

there were a few, granted, I know it wasn't all 100k that are still there... but there were many stories of people who were supposed to be picked up by friends, relatives, etc, who never showed up.  So they ended up waiting too long on these people, and weren't able to make other plans for evacuation.

[QueenTiye]

LORD of the SWORD, on Aug 31 2005, 01:14 PM, said:

And when did life promise these people a rose garden?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who actually said that it did, or that they are looking for one?  I'm not taking their side nor universally condemning them.  Your opening post asked the question - what makes people who wouldn't do this ordinarily do this at times like these.  I offered an opinion based on my observation - and drew a distinction between the kind of people who are lawless ANYWAY, and the kind of people you seemed to ask about (because there are two separate kinds of activities going on when looting occurs).

QT

[Spectacles]

I hear what QT is saying, and I thought the same thing when I heard about the armed violence that's taking place in New Orleans right now. When everyone's in pure survival mode, some people think of others as well as themselves. Unfortunately, some only think of themselves. Chances are, those who are victimizing others right now are the same folks who'd victimize them before the flooding.

Like any city, New Orleans has its share of scum. That's an impolite word, I know, but I can't think of a better one right now. These are the people who prey on others and even actively seek to hold others back. They tend to be impulsive, short-sighted, and utterly lacking in compassion.

A director of the largest ambulance service in New Orleans said that right now the city is a very dangerous place because people are at the mercy of the thuggish types. He said he's had calls from frightened nurses in hospitals saying that they're being "taken over"-- I assume by armed looters looking for drugs. He said that one of his ambulances was turned over. He said they've had generators stolen at gunpoint. The emergency crews definitely feel unsafe as they try to help those in need.  He said people in general are scared and angry and desperate, and they need desperately for the military to come in and impose order.

[Lord of the Sword]

QueenTiye, on Aug 31 2005, 02:31 PM, said:

Who actually said that it did, or that they are looking for one?  I'm not taking their side nor universally condemning them.  Your opening post asked the question - what makes people who wouldn't do this ordinarily do this at times like these.  I offered an opinion based on my observation - and drew a distinction between the kind of people who are lawless ANYWAY, and the kind of people you seemed to ask about (because there are two separate kinds of activities going on when looting occurs).

QT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, didn't mean to dispute your observations. It just still doesn't make sense to me. Even with all the possible reasons. I could understand the looting for food, water, ect if it was a surprise disaster....but these people KNEW beforehand.

Slightly off topic...For those who decided to stay behind and ride it out, and who later had to be rescued, should be made to pay the cost of that rescue...IMO. They not only put their lives in danger, but the lives of those rescuing them...for no reason. The very least they need to pay for the cost of the rescue.

[Enkanowen]

Livejournal Link

apparently, the news sees it as such:

White people find

Black people loot

More looting

read the side blurbs to each image. It disgusts me. These people are trying to survive, all four of them. Sure one guy has beer. I'd be digging into the whiskey if I saw my life being washed away by a storm.

[Zwolf]

I dunno about the other states, but Mississippi has a big problem right now that's disgusting me:  people here are creating gasoline panics.  And it's making me rant.

I love my state.  It's a beautiful state, has some of the best land anywhere, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  Many of the citizens of this state are some of the best people you'll ever meet.

But we also have large herds of the stupidest, thickheaded, most selfish human cattle that can be found amongst the species, and now that herd is spooked, and they're creating a problem that wasn't there before.  Unfortunately, they're not the only ones getting trampled in it.

Most people down here drive SUV's or big trucks... for no other reason than "everybody else does it."  (Mississippi is, unfortunately, an extremely conformity-ridden state).  I don't mind SUVs when someone has a legitimate need for one, but only about 10% or less of these people ever do anything in an SUV that they couldn't use a car for.  In fact, I know people who've rented trucks to move furniture because they're scared of scratching up the bed of their precious status-symbol pickups.

Anyway, now these gas-sucking morons heard that gas prices may rise for a couple of weeks because of the hurricane interrupting gas shipments and production in the Gulf.  Rather than being willing to shell out more for gas for a while in the name of taking one for the team, these selfish cretins are rushing out to fill their tanks and anything else they can find that will hold gasoline, so they can hoarde it.   Then, others get scared (naturally) that they won't have enough gas to get to work, so they rush out and fill up, too.  Several gas stations in town have already gone dry, and I hear it's happening all over the state.  Some people are afraid that gasoline will be scarce for several weeks because it's almost impossible to meet this sudden surge in demand.  And without gas, we're not gonna be able to get to work, so a lot of stuff's gonna be shut down if that happens (which makes me think it's not very likely - we'll probably get the stations refilled within a few days, I'd imagine.  Hope so, anyway.).

Anyhow, a big new disaster where there was none before, and it's all because of some greedy, stupid, selfish, short-sighted herd-mentality futhermuckers.   I love this state, but man do I sometimes hate some of its citizens.

You'd think that people would realize that there's a crisis and a lot of people are dead, homeless, etc., and if they have to pay a few cents more for gas they'd just suck it up and not kvetch, realizing that paying a little more is nothing compared to the troubles some other people have.

But noooooooooo.  Me, me, me!  

Bastards.

Oh well, if the state runs dry I'll just keep going to work 'til the 3/4ths tank I have left runs out, and then I guess I'll be forced to cash in some of that vast personal leave I have built up.  Thanks, fellow Mississippians, for causing a problem where none was necessary!   The dolts did the same thing on 9/11, and didn't learn a damn thing from it.  

Cheers,

Zwolf

[Eskaminzim]

Zwolf:

The exact same thing is happening here in Georgia, or at least the part of it where I'm from (the supposedly cosmopolitan Atlanta area)--hey, you've got human cattle, we've got Alpharetta/Dunwoody soccer moms!  I was at my PT session when three of the admin assistants came back from lunch saying that they had to go to four gas stations before they found one who hadn't yet shut his pumps down cause he was running dangerously low on fuel and wasn't due another shipment till goodness knows when.

Looks like this is something that's gonna start spreading.

[Rhiannonjk]

There was a silly rumor in Atlanta that pumps were closing at 4:00 for rationing.  

Me?  I've been hoarding since Sunday   

I have a road trip this weekend, supposedly, family wedding in West Virginia.  I've already changed my plans so I can meet up with my parents instead of driving on my own.