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Our Government wants the people to suffer

Katrina Top News 2005 Government failure

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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:09 PM

This is my own personal observation, after 4 days, 5 hours and 38 minutes, with still no real relief effort.

We have politicians clapping each other on their backs while people suffer and die, saying "What a great job we are doing." Yet, they refused to allow Canadian relief to fly past the border? Why? Why wouldn't they want that relief to get to those who needed it? Unless they wanted them to suffer and die. Here's the link for that: http://www.dailykos....8/31/235829/261

And some people who tried to get on buses were turned away, the driver refusing to help them. Here's the link for that: http://www.exisle.ne...ndpost&p=683447

And then there were the vendors who showed up with free food, only to be turned back by FEMA...Yep, that's right...FEMA refused to allow the hungry to be fed free food. Here's the link for that: http://www.exisle.ne...ndpost&p=683511

I'm not sure how long it took for us to send aide to the victims of the Tsunami, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't this long. So why is the Government dragging it's feet, all the while clapping itself on it's back, at the same time refusing to let aide reach the victims???

The only possible answer I can reach is that they want the victims to suffer and die. Although according to some they were "caught off guard" Here's the link for that: http://www.exisle.ne...ndpost&p=684471

As was pointed out on Scarbourough Country. Last year Florida had 4 hurricances, 2 of which were major, and the relief that was sent down was extremely well organized....and it didn't take them over 4 days to do it.

So the real question is why does the government want the people to suffer and die?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#2 Shalamar

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:16 PM

While I agreee that things have been an unmitigated clusterfrak, and that there are many organizations that dropped the ball in nearly a criminal manner, I have to dispute with you that the government wants these people to suffer!

As stupid and self pandering as some of the politicians have been, I can not in any conscience agree with the statement that our government is doing this deliberately.
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#3 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:25 PM

I have no real proof, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were the case.

Funny, I lived in NO for just under a year back in the 80s, and I always joked that the city needed a good flood to clean it out.  I didn't think Anyone would take me seriously on that.

I believe, in my heart of hearts, however, that someone's discovered a good way to get rid of 50,000 lowerclass people.
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#4 darthsikle

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:32 PM

OK...this must be said, why the heck didn't the people leave??  I don't care if they have no money.  I would have stuck my kids in a shopping cart and walked out of town.

At this point, we should put them out of their misery.  Drop a low yield tactical nuke.
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#5 Cyncie

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:34 PM

Maybe Florida takes their hurricanes seriously and plans a bit better in advance. New Orleans has been warned for years that their highly vaunted system of levees and pumps were not going to save them in the event of a major hurricane strike, yet they seemto have been woefully ill prepared to deal with the reality of just that kind of scenario.

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Edited by Cyncie, 02 September 2005 - 12:35 PM.

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#6 Godeskian

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:36 PM

uhm, with respect, dykes and levees, properly designed, built and reinforced can stop flooding. In fact, had the levee not broken when it did, there are good odds that NO would not have this disaster happening to them at the same level.

Defy Gravity!


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#7 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:38 PM

darthsikle, on Sep 2 2005, 11:32 AM, said:

OK...this must be said, why the heck didn't the people leave??  I don't care if they have no money.  I would have stuck my kids in a shopping cart and walked out of town.

Have you seen the recent episode of Doctor Who set during the London Blitz?  If so, that would probably explain it.

I don't think it's a major coincidence that within a day of the hurricane's end, there are looters on the street.

Quote

At this point, we should put them out of their misery.  Drop a low yield tactical nuke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'd rather not, thank you.  I get a lot of my weather from that direction. ;)
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#8 Cyncie

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:41 PM

Godeskian, on Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM, said:

uhm, with respect, dykes and levees, properly designed, built and reinforced can stop flooding. In fact, had the levee not broken when it did, there are good odds that NO would not have this disaster happening to them at the same level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But, these particular levees were not rated to withstand more than a Cat 3 hurricane. There should have been plans in place for better evacuation in the event of Cat 4 and above storms. Apparently there weren't.

~Cyn
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#9 darthsikle

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:43 PM

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 05:38 PM, said:

Have you seen the recent episode of Doctor Who set during the London Blitz?  If so, that would probably explain it.


No, what happened??
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#10 Godeskian

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:47 PM

Cyncie, on Sep 2 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

Godeskian, on Sep 2 2005, 12:36 PM, said:

uhm, with respect, dykes and levees, properly designed, built and reinforced can stop flooding. In fact, had the levee not broken when it did, there are good odds that NO would not have this disaster happening to them at the same level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But, these particular levees were not rated to withstand more than a Cat 3 hurricane. There should have been plans in place for better evacuation in the event of Cat 4 and above storms. Apparently there weren't.

~Cyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The Dutch learnt the hard way half a century ago that if you build dykes to withstand Cat 3 disasters, you will always end up facing a Cat 4, so they changed their design philosophy to make everything capable of standing against the worst they thought nature could throw at them.

They've got it wrong a few times, but at other times the delta-dykes built in the Oosterschelde area have stood against the storm.

When, not if, but when New Orleans rebuilds, they might want to consider doing the same, and building Cat 5 Hurricane defenses.

Defy Gravity!


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#11 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:50 PM

darthsikle, on Sep 2 2005, 11:43 AM, said:

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 05:38 PM, said:

Have you seen the recent episode of Doctor Who set during the London Blitz?  If so, that would probably explain it.


No, what happened??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I know this isn't the forum for it, but it's somewhat relevant.

Spoiler: click to show/hide
In the episodes "Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances" all the children were evacuated from London during the Blitz, but many slipped back into town and lived on the streets by raiding houses for food while families hid in their shelters.  The kids portrayed in the eps had a really good scheme going.

Edited by The Masked Coyote, 02 September 2005 - 12:50 PM.

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#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 12:58 PM

Shalamar, on Sep 2 2005, 12:16 PM, said:

While I agreee that things have been an unmitigated clusterfrak, and that there are many organizations that dropped the ball in nearly a criminal manner, I have to dispute with you that the government wants these people to suffer!

As stupid and self pandering as some of the politicians have been, I can not in any conscience agree with the statement that our government is doing this deliberately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I really don't want to believe it either...but what other explanation is there? Given the way we've mobilized and sent aide halfway around the world, in record time, what other explanation could there be for what has gone down with the relief aide here?

They had relief aide ready to fly from Canada days ago...yet refused to allow it. FEMA wouldn't allow a vendor to give free food to starving people...As sad as it seems, there is only ONE possible reason: They wanted to get rid of a certain population.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#13 Shalamar

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 01:06 PM

LotS have you ever hear of the old saying:

"Never attribute to maliciousness, what plain stupidity will explain"

Some people are so hide bound by rules and regulations, that they are incapable of thinking out side the box- the poor man who wanted to feed those hungry people- I've seen idiots fixated enough to deny him because he didn't have the 'proper health permits' or his sanitation proceedures didn't conform to code - nearly unbelievable, but they are out there and they are out to inadvertantly casue horrors with their blind obedience to form and regulations
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#14 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 01:09 PM

Shalamar, on Sep 2 2005, 01:06 PM, said:

LotS have you ever hear of the old saying:

"Never attribute to maliciousness, what plain stupidity will explain"

Some people are so hide bound by rules and regulations, that they are incapable of thinking out side the box- the poor man who wanted to feed those hungry people- I've seen idiots fixated enough to deny him because he didn't have the 'proper health permits' or his sanitation proceedures didn't conform to code - nearly unbelievable, but they are out there and they are out to inadvertantly casue horrors with their blind obedience to form and regulations

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


LMAO!

you make a very good point. I just didn't think that our elected officials could be THAT stupid...which is why I thought it must be deliberate. I guess I could be wrong, they could be THAT stupid.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#15 Zwolf

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 01:20 PM

Quote

But, these particular levees were not rated to withstand more than a Cat 3 hurricane. There should have been plans in place for better evacuation in the event of Cat 4 and above storms. Apparently there weren't.

There were plans.  And there were requests.  But they couldn't get the funding necessary.   The Army Corps of Engineers told the fed that the levees needed strengthening and quoted them a figure of how much they'd need... and the fed gave them less than 20% of that.

Cheers,

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#16 Corwin

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 01:44 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 2 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

As was pointed out on Scarbourough Country. Last year Florida had 4 hurricances, 2 of which were major, and the relief that was sent down was extremely well organized....and it didn't take them over 4 days to do it.


Although devastating the hurricanes in Florida were relatively small scale (I believe Ivan cut a max. destruction pathway only 10 miles wide).  Katrina was inimaginable in its magnitude.  Cat. 4 winds extened well over 100-130 miles from the center and Cat 3 winds were recorded out to an amazing 200+ miles from the center.  Instead of leaving a small pathway of utter devastation like Ivan, Katrina extended hers well over 100 miles wide and hundreds of miles deep, much of it in an area that is barely above water at the best of times.  Katrina was still a Cat 3 Hurricane when it hit Hattiesburg, 120 miles North of New Orleans.  No matter how much anyone prepares for a disaster, you are going to come up far short given the Logistical nightmare of operating in hazardous and flooded areas, trying to save lives and distribute food and medicine.

Yes, mistakes have been made, but this is no formulated plan to "get the poor people".  If anyone has that plan it's the scum that is preying upon those weaker than themselves and hindering rescue operations... But scum always rises to the surface I guess....

Corwin
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#17 Cyncie

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 02:52 PM

Zwolf666, on Sep 2 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

Quote

But, these particular levees were not rated to withstand more than a Cat 3 hurricane. There should have been plans in place for better evacuation in the event of Cat 4 and above storms. Apparently there weren't.

There were plans.  And there were requests.  But they couldn't get the funding necessary.   The Army Corps of Engineers told the fed that the levees needed strengthening and quoted them a figure of how much they'd need... and the fed gave them less than 20% of that.

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh, I realize that there were snafus going back decades hindering upgrades to the levees. That's a whole different rant. My contention is this: they had what they had. They knew these levees weren't going to stand up against a Cat 4 or better storm. So why didn't they have a better system of evacuation? If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I'm referring to botched advanced disaster planning that left tourists and the poor with no way out of town in the event of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane and a levee breach.

Someone in the New Orleans government should have taken a look around, said "Damn, if the big one hits, we need a plan, cause these crappy levees ain't gonna hold and this town will become a stinking toilet bowl." ... Then, they should have done something to insure the safety of their citizens in that eventuality.  Instead, they screamed "get out!", but how do you get out if you don't have transportation or adequate disaster planning that's well communicated to the people? I have NOT been impressed with this city's leadership.

~Cyn
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#18 Cheile

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:31 PM

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 10:25 AM, said:

I have no real proof, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were the case.

Funny, I lived in NO for just under a year back in the 80s, and I always joked that the city needed a good flood to clean it out.  I didn't think Anyone would take me seriously on that.

I believe, in my heart of hearts, however, that someone's discovered a good way to get rid of 50,000 lowerclass people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


that last statement is really rude, you know.  just because they're lower class doesn't mean they don't have the right to live in New Orleans (or anywhere!).

i agree with those who said those levees should have been built a lot stronger.  they KNOW Ponchartrain would pour into the city if they broke.  it ain't rocket science.  oy....

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#19 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:38 PM

Cheile, on Sep 2 2005, 06:31 PM, said:

that last statement is really rude, you know.  just because they're lower class doesn't mean they don't have the right to live in New Orleans (or anywhere!).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Tell that to the Government. Their the ones who figure it's good business, which is why they dragged their feet. From their POV it IS good business. Those poor people could never, ever, repay what it'll cost to rebuild their homes...So the government waits, makes a "show" of what their doing, clapping each other on the back on tv, saying "you're doing a great job"...hoping people will believe the lie.

All the while gas prices soar, they make a killing, and people die. Those that don't die get so pissed that when they are rescued they decide not to return to NO...which leaves the Government with prime land it can then sell at a tidy profitt. The government makes out like a bandit, and comes out smelling like a rose on TV for the "community work" they are doing.

And questions like: "How come you can deploy troops overseas to Iraq in 24 hours, but it takes over 4 days to get to the gulf coast?" are conviently ignored, or answered with: "it takes time. We're doing all we can. Yada yada yada."
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#20 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:47 PM

Cheile, on Sep 2 2005, 05:31 PM, said:

that last statement is really rude, you know.  just because they're lower class doesn't mean they don't have the right to live in New Orleans (or anywhere!).

:Oo:


LoTS, do you really think they're that calculating?  That's slightly scary.

Edited by The Masked Coyote, 02 September 2005 - 06:48 PM.

The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? A.E. Housman (1859-1936)



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