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Katrina Top News 2005 Government failure

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#101 Anarch

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 05:10 PM

Cait, on Sep 4 2005, 09:16 PM, said:

The more I read, the angrier I get.  This is just absurd.  People held at gun point and not allowed to even walk out of that town to try and survive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It's no longer limited to being held at gun point; MSNBC Breaking News has just reported

Police shoot 8 people in New Orleans on bridge, killing 5 or 6. -

More details as I find'em.

ETA:  Army Corps of Engineers says 8 people shot in New Orleans were contractors -
Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.


Or, what mack12345 just said.

ETA x2: OK, this is messed up: CNN is now reporting that the "real" story -- I can't accent that word quite as hard as the anchorhead -- NO police shot gunmen who were firing at the contractors.  Consider this story still settling.

Edited by Anarch, 04 September 2005 - 05:28 PM.


#102 mack12345

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 05:18 PM

apparently they were contractors of some sort and possibly  armed.

#103 Anarch

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 05:37 PM

It is, however, confirmed that we've just had our first outbreak of dysentery in Biloxi, MS (from the head of HHS, I think it is, on FOX News).

#104 mack12345

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 08:17 PM

the shootout was with a band of thugs and not contractors as earlier
reported. two were killed.

#105 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:09 PM

mack12345, on Sep 4 2005, 08:17 PM, said:

the shootout was with a band of thugs and not contractors as earlier
reported. two were killed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Of course it was...the police were there, weren't they? The same police that held innocent civilians at gunpoint, putting those civilians lives in danger. Of course the thugs were involved in the shootout.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#106 Natolii

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:34 PM

The thugs opened fire on the Army Corp of Engineers as the Police were escorting a Civilian Contractor to begin punch the holes in the levees to release the water. The Police left their escort and proceeded to give the ACE the support resulting in the shootout according to MSNBC nightly news.

Quote

Police Kill Gunmen Who Fired On Engineers

New Orleans police said they shot and killed some gunmen who had fired upon a group of contractors traveling across a city bridge while on their way to make repairs.

Riley said police shot at eight people, killing five or six of them.

A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said there were 14 contractors on their way to repair a canal. They were traveling across a bridge under police escort when they were fired upon.

The Associated Press had reported that New Orleans police shot and killed Corps of Engineers contractors. But that report was later retracted.

The contractors were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to fix the 17th Street Canal.

The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, which spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

http://www.turnto10....230/detail.html

As for FEMA...

Like I said previously, blame Bush for this mess...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9166337/

Quote

But several current and former senior officials charged that those worries were never accorded top priority -- either by FEMA's management or their superiors in DHS. Even when officials held a practice run, as they did in an exercise dubbed "Hurricane Pam" last year, they did not test for the worst-case scenario, rehearsing only what they would do if a Category 3 storm hit New Orleans, not the Category 4 power of Katrina. And after Pam, the planned follow-up study was never completed, according to a FEMA official involved.

.. snip ..

Quote

Yet DHS in reality emphasized terrorism at the expense of other threats, said several current and former senior department officials and experts who have closely monitored its creation, cutting funding for natural disaster programs and downgrading the responsibilities and capabilities of the previously well-regarded FEMA. In theory, spending resources on response to terrorism should result in improved response to any disaster, but FEMA's supporters argue that the money was being spent outside the framework of the agency actually equipped to respond.

"The federal system that was perfected in the '90s has been deconstructed," said Bullock. Citing a study that found that the United States now spends $180 million a year to fend off natural hazards vs. $20 billion annually against terrorism, Bullock said, "FEMA has been marginalized. . . . There is one focus and the focus is on terrorism."

.. snip ..

Quote

New leaders such as Allbaugh were critical of FEMA's natural disaster focus and lectured senior managers about the need to adjust to the post-9/11 fear of terrorism. So did his friend Michael D. Brown, a lawyer with no previous disaster management experience whom Allbaugh brought in as his deputy and who now has the top FEMA post. "Allbaugh's quote was 'You don't get it,' " recalled the senior FEMA official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "If you brought up natural disasters, you were accused of being a pre-9/11 thinker." The result, the official said, was that "FEMA was being taxed by the department, having money and slots taken. Because we didn't conform with the mission of the agency."

"I'm guilty of saying, 'you don't get it,' " Allbaugh said. "Absolutely." The former FEMA chief said he had encountered bureaucratic resistance to thinking about a "monumental" disaster, such as Katrina or 9/11, rather than the more standard diet of "tornadoes and rising waters."

.. snip ..

Quote

Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster, and Risk Management at George Washington University, said FEMA's natural disaster focus was nearly liquidated. "We ended up spending a lot of money on infrastructure protection and not the resiliency of the actual infrastructure," Harrald said. "The people who came in from the military and terrorist world thought we had the natural disaster thing fixed."


It's not about race... It about the people Washington needing a good swift boot in the arse... Preferrably out the nearest window or door.
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#107 Anarch

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 12:01 AM

Oh.  My.  God.

A visibly angry Mayor Daley said the city had offered emergency, medical and technical help to the federal government as early as Sunday to assist people in the areas stricken by Hurricane Katrina, but as of Friday, the only things the feds said they wanted was a single tank truck.

#108 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 12:44 AM

Anarch, on Sep 5 2005, 12:01 AM, said:


I heard about this before...just another piece of proof that the government, for whatever it's reasons, deliberately dragged it's feet.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#109 Natolii

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 08:02 AM

Wal-mart had sent 3 trucks of relief supplies that were turned away and they have 40,000 associates in the region.

This is not an uncommon complaint now.

Edited by Natolii, 05 September 2005 - 08:02 AM.

"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that donít even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#110 waterpanther

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 11:25 AM

The mercy flight arranged by Al Gore and others, that lifted out 140 critical cases along with some kids and a dog, was kept waiting for three days before it was allowed to go in.  If the pilots and others who arranged the technical aspects of the flight were of the opinion that a large-capacity jet could land at Louis Armstrong three days before it actually did, then military planes with personnel and supplies could have landed there, too, dropped their loads and picked up evacuees.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  

There are no excuses.

Edited by waterpanther, 05 September 2005 - 11:26 AM.

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#111 Call Me Robin

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 11:31 AM

Anarch, on Sep 5 2005, 05:01 AM, said:


I read about this.  I'm outraged.  The city of Chicago, the Red Cross--all of them were jumping up and down to help and were kept away.  By whom?  And why?  And which geniuses decided they only needed one truck from the city of Chicago?

This is it.  Bush should demand that Chertoff and Brown resign.  But knowing him, he'll probably give them Medals of Freedom.  That's how he rewards failures.   :angry:
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#112 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 12:47 PM

Call Me Robin, on Sep 5 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

I read about this.  I'm outraged.  The city of Chicago, the Red Cross--all of them were jumping up and down to help and were kept away.  By whom?  And why?  And which geniuses decided they only needed one truck from the city of Chicago?

They were kept away by FEMA. Why they were kept away? Greed. FEMA works for Bush. Bush is in tight with the oil companies. So as the price of gas went up, they made a killing. Also, most of the people in the disaster zones probably can't afford to rebuild, or pay back the loans to rebuild. Which means that the government will get that land, which it can rebuild on, and sell it at a premium. It was only good business for Bush and his Administration to drag their feet.

Quote

This is it.  Bush should demand that Chertoff and Brown resign.  But knowing him, he'll probably give them Medals of Freedom.  That's how he rewards failures.   :angry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


He will never do that, demand they resign. Nor will he fire every member of FEMA, as he should also do.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#113 waterpanther

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 02:03 PM

This is quite long, but since the LA Times requires registration, I'll post it all.

Quote

Bush's Hurricane Response a Disaster

by Michael Hiltzik

Nearly five years ago, the Bush administration rode into office bearing its cynicism about government high, like a banner.

It promoted a massive tax cut as a way of "starving the beast" of federal government. President Bush traveled the country telling us that we were overdependent on the government for help with healthcare and retirement. To those wondering what resources might see them into old age, he advised: "a conservative mix of stocks and bonds."

New Orleans is, or should be, the graveyard of the conservative ideology that government is useless. An American city is reduced to Third World desperation as people who own nothing scrounge for necessities in a sea of waste and federal officials offer lame excuses about how their disaster plans would have worked fine had there not been, you know, a disaster. The president, at the head of a global power that can't get its own troops or supplies off their bases to reach the needful, whines, "The private sector needs to do its part."

This deplorable performance has deep roots. Joe M. Allbaugh, a Bush campaign hack without any crisis management experience who was named director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, disparaged federal disaster assistance as "an oversized entitlement program" before Congress in 2001. The public's expectations of government in a disaster situation, he said, "may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level." He advised stricken communities to rely for help on "faith-based organizations Ö like the Salvation Army and the Mennonite Disaster Service."

If Allbaugh were not an amateur, he would have known that communities, "faith-based organizations" and the private sector become overwhelmed by disasters more modest than this one. In a crisis the federal government should be the first responder, not the last, to take charge, not wait to be asked.


Cynicism on such a scale is self-perpetuating. Determined to portray government as little but an intrusion into people's lives, this gang made it irrelevant to hundreds of thousands of victims of Hurricane Katrina ó thus giving them, and us, good reason to be cynical after all.

The federal officials assigned to New Orleans have displayed an appalling combination of arrogance and ignorance. Thursday evening on NPR, I heard Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who oversees FEMA, dismiss reports of thousands of refugees trapped at the New Orleans convention center for days without sustenance. He called the reports, in so many words, "rumors and anecdotes."

Informed that an NPR reporter had been on the scene, he sniffed, "I can't argue with you about what your reporter tells you." Later, his staff called back to say that he had "received a report confirming the situation" and that he was now "working tirelessly" to get food to the location.

At a news conference that day, FEMA Director Michael Brown, Allbaugh's successor and college chum, attributed the death toll in New Orleans "to people who did not heed evacuation warnings." Insensitive to the truth that many of the stranded had no way of responding to the warnings ó no money, no transport out of the city and nowhere to go ó he blamed them for having failed to prepare any better than, well, the federal government.

He also described security in the city, where snipers were firing on rescue boats and a mob beat back police trying to impose order at the convention center, as "pretty darn good." The image of lawlessness, he said, was fomented by those willing to "stick a camera" in front of "bad people."

The Bush administration is not alone in having ignored pleas to improve the hurricane and flood defenses of New Orleans. But it bears sole responsibility for a crisis response that has been fairly labeled a national disgrace. FEMA drafted an action plan for a New Orleans flood: pre-position food, supplies and hospital ships for immediate deployment in the aftermath. Brown and Chertoff failed to implement it adequately, pleading that no one could have anticipated a disaster that had in fact been anticipated by engineers, geographers and political leaders for decades. As I write, the Navy hospital ship USNS Comfort remains moored in Baltimore, not to arrive off New Orleans until the end of this week.

President Bush will surely feel the consequences of his dereliction. Every policy of his administration will be viewed through the prism of the debacle of New Orleans. The pursuit of a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussein, supported by manipulated intelligence, has sucked billions out of the treasury and removed more than 30% of Louisiana and Mississippi National Guard members from their homes, so they must watch the disaster unfold from half a world away instead of assisting their own communities. Tax cuts for the wealthy have been financed by budget cuts for disaster preparedness and other crucial programs. Four years of anti-terrorism planning have failed to produce a competent system for mitigating a metropolitan cataclysm ó one that, on the ground, is indistinguishable from the effects of the terrorist attack we've supposedly been girding for since 9/11.

Then there's Bush's sustained assault on social insurance programs such as Social Security, safety nets that are to be replaced by the slogan "You're on your own."

New Orleans is not a local calamity; it belongs to us all, not least because it signals what to expect from this administration. If a major earthquake strikes Los Angeles or San Francisco, will President Bush wait to respond until he can conclude his vacation, as he did last week? Will his appointees express surprise at an eventuality that "no one could have predicted"?

Probably. George W. Bush is known for never admitting his mistakes. Consequently, he never learns from his mistakes. The chances are dismal that he will learn from this one. We're on our own.

Michael Hiltzik column

Edited by waterpanther, 05 September 2005 - 02:10 PM.

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#114 Cheile

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 04:26 PM

Quote

At a news conference that day, FEMA Director Michael Brown, Allbaugh's successor and college chum, attributed the death toll in New Orleans "to people who did not heed evacuation warnings." Insensitive to the truth that many of the stranded had no way of responding to the warnings — no money, no transport out of the city and nowhere to go

if you don't have a car, then walk.  find a way out.  people who stop to think can survive like the survivors did.  better to walk than lose your life.

and while FEMA is in the wrong in many instances, there were quite a few that did do exactly what Brown said and refused to leave/failed to heed the warnings.  the smaller town of Houma (which granted is not NOLA but was affected all the same) was visited by MSNBC reporters the night before Katrina made landfall.  the reporter CLEARLY stated that most of the population in Houma was REFUSING to budge and interviewed several who said they weren't going anywhere and shrugged off Katrina as something little more than a bothersome wind.

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#115 Spectacles

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 04:47 PM

While it's frustrating to consider those who didn't leave, I've noticed that many stayed behind because they didn't have a lot of money AND had an elderly person to care for, an elderly person who didn't want to leave.

This may be incomprehensible to most middle class Americans, but I can actually understand it. If a Katrina were barrelling toward me, I'd probably be staying put, too. I have an elderly mother who is disabled from a stroke--and who is unused to travel. We have two dogs who are like family to us.

If a Cat 5 Hurricane were to head for us (completely unlikely, but let's just say), I would not be able to get her in my car. I'd have to arrange ambulance transport for her--which I would imagine would be impossible in a mass evacuation. And I'd have to make sure the dogs went, too.

Given the fact that caregivers are often so tired as to be befuddled, arranging all of that is overwhelming. We'd probably be in the same shape as a lot of those who stayed behind. So I'm in no position to blame them.
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#116 waterpanther

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 04:50 PM

Walking away from a hurricane is not necessarily smart or possible.  The word for someone caught out in the open in something like Katrina is corpse.
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#117 Cardie

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 05:07 PM

Quote

federal officials offer lame excuses about how their disaster plans would have worked fine had there not been, you know, a disaster.

No better summing up of the complete screw-up than this.

Will voters finally realize that government has a duty to protect ALL the people, or will they write off the victims as the unimportant poor, powerless and disenfranchised, so that, a decade hence, Hurricane Katrina is not regarded as a wake-up call but as an urban renewal opportunity?

I weep for my country.

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#118 Hibblette

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Posted 05 September 2005 - 06:14 PM

Spectacles, on Sep 5 2005, 04:47 PM, said:

While it's frustrating to consider those who didn't leave, I've noticed that many stayed behind because they didn't have a lot of money AND had an elderly person to care for, an elderly person who didn't want to leave.

This may be incomprehensible to most middle class Americans, but I can actually understand it. If a Katrina were barrelling toward me, I'd probably be staying put, too. I have an elderly mother who is disabled from a stroke--and who is unused to travel. We have two dogs who are like family to us.

If a Cat 5 Hurricane were to head for us (completely unlikely, but let's just say), I would not be able to get her in my car. I'd have to arrange ambulance transport for her--which I would imagine would be impossible in a mass evacuation. And I'd have to make sure the dogs went, too.

Given the fact that caregivers are often so tired as to be befuddled, arranging all of that is overwhelming. We'd probably be in the same shape as a lot of those who stayed behind. So I'm in no position to blame them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And don't forget those with small children-one lady had three children under the age of six following her and a baby in her arms-kids don't do to well in forced marches.

Edited by Hibblette, 05 September 2005 - 06:16 PM.

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#119 Anarch

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:52 PM

ETA: Ta for the heads-up there ZipperInt.  Link's been fixed; basically, I just stole the link that Peridot gave in the "Curious incident" thread.

Ouch.

Edited by Anarch, 06 September 2005 - 09:42 PM.


#120 ZipperInt

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 09:03 PM

That link doesn't work for me.
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