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Katrina Top News 2005 Government failure

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#21 Shalamar

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:48 PM

Erm, sorry LotS, but we can't deploy troops overseas to Iraq in 24 hours.
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#22 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:49 PM

Shalamar, on Sep 2 2005, 05:48 PM, said:

Erm, sorry LotS, but we can't deploy troops overseas to Iraq in 24 hours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh yes we can.
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#23 Cheile

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:50 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 2 2005, 04:38 PM, said:

Cheile, on Sep 2 2005, 06:31 PM, said:

that last statement is really rude, you know. just because they're lower class doesn't mean they don't have the right to live in New Orleans (or anywhere!).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Tell that to the Government. Their the ones who figure it's good business, which is why they dragged their feet. From their POV it IS good business. Those poor people could never, ever, repay what it'll cost to rebuild their homes...So the government waits, makes a "show" of what their doing, clapping each other on the back on tv, saying "you're doing a great job"...hoping people will believe the lie.

All the while gas prices soar, they make a killing, and people die. Those that don't die get so pissed that when they are rescued they decide not to return to NO...which leaves the Government with prime land it can then sell at a tidy profitt. The government makes out like a bandit, and comes out smelling like a rose on TV for the "community work" they are doing.

And questions like: "How come you can deploy troops overseas to Iraq in 24 hours, but it takes over 4 days to get to the gulf coast?" are conviently ignored, or answered with: "it takes time. We're doing all we can. Yada yada yada."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


i never said you were wrong, LotS.  i think Bush shoulda been out there on day one as soon as it was safe.  but we all know he's a lazy a**.

however, i think Coyote's comment was uncalled for.

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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:51 PM

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

LoTS, do you really think they're that calculating?  That's slightly scary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It's the only thing that makes sense. If you have another theory about why it's amateur week down in the gulf I'm all ears.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#25 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:51 PM

Shalamar, on Sep 2 2005, 06:48 PM, said:

Erm, sorry LotS, but we can't deploy troops overseas to Iraq in 24 hours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It seems to me that THAT is exactly what we did.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#26 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:53 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 2 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

LoTS, do you really think they're that calculating?  That's slightly scary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It's the only thing that makes sense. If you have another theory about why it's amateur week down in the gulf I'm all ears.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not really, no...you're theory is as good as any right now...barring total freaking incompetence by FEMA.

Cheile, could you please explain why my statement was uncalled for?
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#27 Cait

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:53 PM

I think the question is...Do we think they are so incompetent, that they can't get the same convoy that arrived today, down there 3 days ago?  Well, do we?

If they aren't incompetent, then they had a reason to delay aid.  The usual suspect is greed, but I suppose it could be something else.

I don't know which is worse BTW, incompetence or cold and calculating.  Regardless, the fact remains, aide was delayed and people died.

Edited by Cait, 02 September 2005 - 08:52 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#28 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 06:55 PM

Cait, I find it hard to believe that the authorities of the state holding the largest US port can't utilize the infrastructure that moves goods back and forth in order to move goods in...high water be damned.  I really can't.
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#29 Cait

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:01 PM

The Masked Coyote, on Sep 2 2005, 04:55 PM, said:

Cait, I find it hard to believe that the authorities of the state holding the largest US port can't utilize the infrastructure that moves goods back and forth in order to move goods in...high water be damned. I really can't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So do I.  

I watched those trucks roll in today and wondered.. "Hey, now was that so difficult".  The water level hasn't gone down much, if at all. Yet there they were, rolling into town with supplies.  Had that happened 3 days ago, we wouldn't have such unrest and desperation.  We'd have less loss of life.

I can't believe anyone in authority didn't know that 5 days without water would certainly result in loss of life.  Those were the stakes--life and death.

Which leaves us with the alternative to incompetence, doesn't it?

Edited by Cait, 02 September 2005 - 07:02 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#30 Spectacles

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:14 PM

Cyncie, on Sep 2 2005, 02:52 PM, said:

Zwolf666, on Sep 2 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

Quote

But, these particular levees were not rated to withstand more than a Cat 3 hurricane. There should have been plans in place for better evacuation in the event of Cat 4 and above storms. Apparently there weren't.

There were plans.  And there were requests.  But they couldn't get the funding necessary.   The Army Corps of Engineers told the fed that the levees needed strengthening and quoted them a figure of how much they'd need... and the fed gave them less than 20% of that.

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh, I realize that there were snafus going back decades hindering upgrades to the levees. That's a whole different rant. My contention is this: they had what they had. They knew these levees weren't going to stand up against a Cat 4 or better storm. So why didn't they have a better system of evacuation? If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I'm referring to botched advanced disaster planning that left tourists and the poor with no way out of town in the event of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane and a levee breach.

Someone in the New Orleans government should have taken a look around, said "Damn, if the big one hits, we need a plan, cause these crappy levees ain't gonna hold and this town will become a stinking toilet bowl." ... Then, they should have done something to insure the safety of their citizens in that eventuality.  Instead, they screamed "get out!", but how do you get out if you don't have transportation or adequate disaster planning that's well communicated to the people? I have NOT been impressed with this city's leadership.

~Cyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not to defend New Orleans's leadership, since I'm not inclined to defend anyone's in this godawful mess, but New Orleans did contract with a private company that was supposed to have developed a catastrophic hurricane evacuation plan.

http://www.insurance...06/09/43008.htm

Quote

IEM to Lead Development of Hurricane Plan for Louisiana
June 9, 2004

IEM Inc., a Baton Rouge, La.-based emergency management and homeland security consultant, announced it will lead the development of a catastrophic hurricane disaster plan for Southeast Louisiana and the City of New Orleans under a more than half a million dollar contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security/Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

In making the announcement today on behalf of teaming partners Dewberry, URS Corporation and James Lee Witt Associates, IEM Director of Homeland Security Wayne Thomas explained that the development of a base catastrophic hurricane disaster plan has urgency due to the recent start of the annual hurricane season which runs through November. National weather experts are predicting an above normal Atlantic hurricane season with six to eight hurricanes, of which three could be categorized as major.

The IEM team will complete a functional exercise on a catastrophic hurricane strike in Southeast Louisiana and use results to develop a response and recovery plan. A catastrophic event is one that can overwhelm state, local and private capabilities so quickly that communities could be devastated without Federal assistance and multi-agency planning and preparedness.

Thomas said that the greater New Orleans area is one of the nation's most vulnerable locations for hurricane landfall.

"Given this area's vulnerability, unique geographic location and elevation, and troubled escape routes, a plan that facilitates a rapid and effective hurricane response and recovery is critical," he said. "The IEM team's approach to catastrophic planning meets the challenges associated with integrating multi-jurisdictional needs and capabilities into an effective plan for addressing catastrophic hurricane strikes, as well as man-made catastrophic events."

IEM President and CEO Madhu Beriwal is the recipient of a special merit award from the Louisiana Emergency Preparedness Association ( LEPA ) for her work in New Orleans hurricane emergency preparedness.


I think IEM has some 'splain' to do.

And before anyone jumps on the city of New Orleans for privatizing their evacuation plans, this is the policy of FEMA under the Bush administration. It goes along with the notion that business can do better what government normally does (with taxpayers' money, of course).

I'm thinking that IEM's CEO Madhu Beriwal and her Director of Homeland Security Wayne Thomas better make themselves scarce.

Edited by Spectacles, 02 September 2005 - 07:15 PM.

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#31 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:26 PM

Cait, on Sep 2 2005, 07:01 PM, said:

Which leaves us with the alternative to incompetence, doesn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Have to disagree. It leaves the alternative being nothing but greed. I can't believe for a second that the government is THAT incompetent.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#32 Cait

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:28 PM

I read this earlier today.  I was too speechless to make a cogent remark. Every time I hear about the privitizing and awarding of contracts, I ask myself, "Who's getting rich?"  And today I'm asking..."Who's getting rich off this nightmare?"  Makes you wonder if someone saw a better profit margin in letting the city just self-destruct and then bulldozing it, as opposed to getting in there and trying to DO something.

I don't like the way this is going.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#33 Cait

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:32 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 2 2005, 05:26 PM, said:

Cait, on Sep 2 2005, 07:01 PM, said:

Which leaves us with the alternative to incompetence, doesn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Have to disagree. It leaves the alternative being nothing but greed. I can't believe for a second that the government is THAT incompetent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That was my thinking exaclty.  If we dig into this we will find greed in there somewhere.  

I still can't get the heartlessness of the delay out of my mind.  The press was in there, we all could hear the desperation and pain.  Yet nothing was done, and what little was done to help local officials, was too little, too late, and badly executed.

And then to watch the photo ops and all the political spin all day.  I wanted to heave.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#34 Cyncie

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 07:38 PM

Absolutely agreed that IEM has some things to answer for. And, if they were milking this government contract at the expense of human lives, they need to go down hard. Privatization and deregulation of essential services is one of my biggest complaints with right wing government policy, being the good centrist that I am.

Not to let the city of New Orleans off the hook, though. They have known for years that they were vulnerable in this way. What were they doing to prepare before this 2004 contract?

Lots of people have a lot to answer for, here.  Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in conspiracy theories. But, the Peter Principle* seems to be very much in evidence in just about every level of decision making here.

~Cyn

*The Peter Principle --- in a hierarchically structured administration, people tend to be promoted up to their "level of incompetence".... (L. Peter)
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#35 Hibblette

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 08:25 PM

This is as good a place as any to post this.

I just got through watching Harry Connick and the others who are trying to raise money.  They had a guy (I'm sorry I don't know who he was could have been a rocker/rapper) he's standing there with Mike Meyers and he starts in on Bush.

It was rather amazing actually. :eek4: The last thing he said before the Camera went off him was "George Bush hates black people."

Now I know that may or may not be true.  But this is the level of anger that is about to emerge strongly.

I say..."Buckle down.  Everybody hold on to their butts."

It's going to get real wicked. :unsure:  :oh:
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

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#36 Anarch

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 08:33 PM

I think the question is...Do we think they are so incompetent, that they can't get the same convey that arrived today, down there 3 days ago? Well, do we?

Yes.

#37 Cait

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 08:51 PM

Anarch, on Sep 2 2005, 06:33 PM, said:

I think the question is...Do we think they are so incompetent, that they can't get the same convey that arrived today, down there 3 days ago? Well, do we?

Yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:eh:  :pout:  :wacko:

I'll be honest, it frightens me more think about this level of incompetence than it does to think up possible conspiracy scenarios.  This kind of irresponsibility is a crime.  

If we're awarding private contracts, why not just give relief grants to the Red Cross and let them handle it all.  They seem to be the only ones that have/had any clue regarding how to get relief into that area.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#38 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 September 2005 - 10:44 PM

Hibblette, on Sep 2 2005, 08:25 PM, said:

This is as good a place as any to post this.

I just got through watching Harry Connick and the others who are trying to raise money.  They had a guy (I'm sorry I don't know who he was could have been a rocker/rapper) he's standing there with Mike Meyers and he starts in on Bush.

It was rather amazing actually. :eek4: The last thing he said before the Camera went off him was "George Bush hates black people."

Now I know that may or may not be true.  But this is the level of anger that is about to emerge strongly.

I say..."Buckle down.  Everybody hold on to their butts."

It's going to get real wicked. :unsure:  :oh:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Funny you should mention that...I was watching that, right up until he started that little speech of his. Sorry but listening to the BS from the president and ALL the politicans clapping themselves on the back, combined with Bush doing photo ops, but being too much of a pussy to go and face the people in downtown NO...I just shut the tv off.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#39 Anarch

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 02:59 AM

Quote

I'll be honest, it frightens me more think about this level of incompetence than it does to think up possible conspiracy scenarios. This kind of irresponsibility is a crime.

Good conspiracies are hard find.  They're expensive, require training and dedication beyond imagining.  Rank incompetence, on the other hand, is as cheap as the day is long, and can be found pretty much by throwing a rock.

And you're absolutely right that rank incompetence is a lot more frightening than a conspiracy.  That's the allure of the conspiracy theory: for all the malevolence and Macchievellian genius, at least someone knows wtf is going on and can control our destinies.  There's little more terrifying than the thought that time is truly out of joint.

#40 Cait

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:07 AM

Anarch, on Sep 3 2005, 12:59 AM, said:

And you're absolutely right that rank incompetence is a lot more frightening than a conspiracy.  That's the allure of the conspiracy theory: for all the malevolence and Macchievellian genius, at least someone knows wtf is going on and can control our destinies.  There's little more terrifying than the thought that time is truly out of joint.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Exactly!

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html




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