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Katrina Top News 2005 Homeland Security FEMA.Failure

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#1 Spectacles

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 08:56 AM

I'm sure there are others, but my nominee is the Department of Homeland Security for not allowing the Red Cross into New Orleans. That's right. And why?

http://www.redcross....82_4524,00.html

Quote

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

Sure. Like if people knew they could get a bottle of water for free, they'd all stay put or flock to lovely New Orleans and par-tay. Unbelievable.

There's no sanitation, no electricity, not much that isn't flooded--but people would be discouraged from evacuating if the Red Cross were there providing aid?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#2 Natolii

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:08 AM

They can continue to request until the cows come home. But the Homeland security department is not the Branch of government that has a charter with the Red Cross.

The Congress of the US has oversight.
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that donít even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#3 Anakam

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:20 AM

Had I noticed this thread earlier, I would have gone and found the comments of some officials and politicians.... :crazy:

For this one:

What.  The.  F***?
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#4 Spectacles

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:09 AM

Quote

Anakam: What. The. F***?

Outraged inds think alike. Those were my exact words when I heard about this.

Also heard that some big hospital ship is on its way to New Orleans--as of today. Yep, today. It'll get there by Thursday--when they hope to have everyone out of New Orleans (now that the Red Cross won't be tempting them to stay for the great food and water.)

And, an ambulance company in Florida had three hundred ambulances ready to go a few days ago. But one bureaucratic organization said they had to get FEMA's permission, and FEMA said it had to get another bureaucratic organization's permission, and there the ambulances sit--in Florida.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#5 Anakam

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:22 AM

Spectacles, on Sep 3 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

Quote

Anakam: What. The. F***?

Outraged inds think alike. Those were my exact words when I heard about this.

Also heard that some big hospital ship is on its way to New Orleans--as of today. Yep, today. It'll get there by Thursday--when they hope to have everyone out of New Orleans (now that the Red Cross won't be tempting them to stay for the great food and water.)

And, an ambulance company in Florida had three hundred ambulances ready to go a few days ago. But one bureaucratic organization said they had to get FEMA's permission, and FEMA said it had to get another bureaucratic organization's permission, and there the ambulances sit--in Florida.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Is this ship the one besides the Comfort?  I've been hearing about that departing for a couple of days now, and just thought it would, erm, leave earlier in the week, such as Wednesday or Thursday.  

I'll just bang my head against some brick walls now.
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#6 Natolii

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:26 AM

It hasn't left yet, Anakam...

It's still sitting in Baltimore getting ready!
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that donít even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#7 Anakam

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:30 AM

Natolii, on Sep 3 2005, 04:26 PM, said:

It hasn't left yet, Anakam...

It's still sitting in Baltimore getting ready!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I can tell from your posts that you know more about how people & equipment are moving for this than I do, so... why is it still there?  Are they waiting for personnel/supplies, or something else?

And is the Truman still getting ready as well? :unsure:

edit:  Ack, forgot about my friend Google ... answers some of my questions.

Edited by Anakam, 03 September 2005 - 10:35 AM.

Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#8 Spectacles

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:34 AM

I don't recall the name of the ship, Anakam. But it sounds like that might be the one, according to Natolii's post.

And I just now read this: Chicago had offered relief aid as early as SUNDAY--before the storm hit--and its offer was rejected by FEMA. As of Friday, they had only requested one tank truck.

http://www.suntimes....ws-daley03.html

Quote

A visibly angry Mayor Daley said the city had offered emergency, medical and technical help to the federal government as early as Sunday to assist people in the areas stricken by Hurricane Katrina, but as of Friday, the only things the feds said they wanted was a single tank truck.

That truck, which the Federal Emergency Management Agency requested to support an Illinois-based medical team, was en route Friday.

"We are ready to provide more help than they have requested. We are just waiting for their call," said Daley, adding that he was "shocked" that no one seemed to want the help.

What did he offer?

Quote

Daley said the city offered 36 members of the firefighters' technical rescue teams, eight emergency medical technicians, search-and-rescue equipment, more than 100 police officers as well as police vehicles and two boats, 29 clinical and 117 non-clinical health workers, a mobile clinic and eight trained personnel, 140 Streets and Sanitation workers and 29 trucks, plus other supplies. City personnel are willing to operate self-sufficiently and would not depend on local authorities for food, water, shelter and other supplies, he said.

Amazing....
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#9 Hibblette

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:38 AM

:disappointed:  :angry:  :evil:
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#10 Anakam

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 10:40 AM

I've got to admit to being fairly impressed with the generosity of other large cities, Spectacles.  Houston, Chicago, even LA and New York, I think, have all offered aid in one form or another, and there's probably other cities that have done so that I haven't heard of yet.

And tank truck?  A tank truck???

I'm running out of brick walls here, guys.  I may have to follow LotS's lead and take a little break, except that I HAVE taken some breaks from the news already.
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

I think you're the first female cast member to *insist* on playing a guy ;) - Iolanthe, on my cross-casting obsession.

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, this earth of majesty, this seat of Mars, this other Eden, demi-paradise, this fortress built by Nature for herself... - John of Gaunt, Act II, Scene I, Richard II

"I think perhaps that was a sub-optimal phrasing for the maintenance of harmony within the collective." - Omega, here

"Courtesy is how we got civilized. The blind assertion of rights is what threatens to decivilize us. Everybody's got lots of rights that are set out legally. Responsibilities are not enumerated, for good reason, but they are set into the social fabric. Is it such a sacrifice to not be an a**hole?" - Jenny Smith on Usenet, via Jid, via Kathy

#11 eloisel

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 11:07 AM

Has there been any explanation from FEMA why these various offers of aid and the Red Cross were shut out?

I can understand why some things should not have been in the area while the storm was raging - loss of emergency assets, more people to rescue.  Can even understand why some aid wouldn't have been deployable until the water receded some.  Can even understand why some was curtailed until the lawlessness in New Orleans was abated.  But, the Red Cross and these other offers of aid aren't accepted even now?

One thing about water.  To keep it fresh, water supplies for emergencies need to be replaced about every 6 months.  Depending on when the water was offered it might not have been a good idea as it was not needed right away and could have taken up valuable storage space for other supplies that doesn't need to be turned over every 6 months or so.

#12 Cait

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 11:35 AM

Some of this is just beyond the pale.  It's a total breakdown of coordination between the States and the Feds.  Millions of dollars in tax money spent to maintain FEMA and this is what we get for our money.  

I'm speechless.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

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#13 Hibblette

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 12:34 PM

Cait, on Sep 3 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

Some of this is just beyond the pale.  It's a total breakdown of coordination between the States and the Feds.  Millions of dollars in tax money spent to maintain FEMA and this is what we get for our money. 

I'm speechless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


amen
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#14 eloisel

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 12:37 PM

On the ships:
USS Shreveport among Navy ships headed to Louisiana

Quote

posted: 08-31-2005

Three U.S. Navy ships, including the USS Shreveport, are headed to Louisiana to help with search and rescue, medical help and supplies in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

The Navy said the four ships -- loaded with supplies such as food, water, soap, medical supplies, medical personnel and construction equipment -- are preparing to leave Virginia. They're expected in the Gulf of Mexico by the weekend.

The USS Shreveport is among three three amphibious ships based in Virginia. Also en route is a rescue and salvage ship. The amphibious ships have decks to handle helicopter.

The hospital ship USNS Comfort is leaving Baltimore for the Gulf, and eight swift water rescue teams from California are on the way to Louisiana, the Navy said.


Troops, aircraft carrier to join US relief effort
Posted 9-1-05

Quote

USS Harry S. Truman ... The big warship, which was to depart Norfolk, Virginia, later on Thursday, would provide a major naval command post in the Gulf of Mexico, helping coordinate the actions of nearly a dozen other warships and supply vessels, including two Navy helicopter assault ships.

The Navy dock landing ship USS Whidbey Island also is leaving Norfolk to join the relief effort, the Navy said. Whidbey Island will bring the capability to employ a movable causeway to the region, the Navy said. Many bridges were destroyed when Hurricane Katrina hit the region on Monday.

The military hospital ship Comfort is scheduled to depart Baltimore in the coming days to provide an offshore floating medical center with 12 operating rooms and up to 1,000 beds.

Have no ships arrived yet?

#15 Kevin Street

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 02:24 PM

eloisel said:

Has there been any explanation from FEMA why these various offers of aid and the Red Cross were shut out?

I have no idea what the official explanation might be (if any), but based on what has been posted here it sounds like FEMA is rather peeved that there are people still in the city. I guess they might have been set up for coordinating a relief operation outside of town, and when so many people stayed (or just couldn't get out), that threw them for a loop. But I've heard stories about people being stopped at the city limits and forced back into New Orleans, which sort of contradicts the idea that they're all supposed to leave.
Per aspera ad astra

#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:46 PM

Spectacles, on Sep 3 2005, 08:56 AM, said:

http://www.redcross....82_4524,00.html

Quote

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


WTF!???

Who is the F**king idiot that made this statement!? And why the F**k didn't the media call them on it?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#17 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:49 PM

Spectacles, on Sep 3 2005, 10:09 AM, said:

Also heard that some big hospital ship is on its way to New Orleans--as of today. Yep, today. It'll get there by Thursday--when they hope to have everyone out of New Orleans (now that the Red Cross won't be tempting them to stay for the great food and water.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I saw that on the news, back before I stopped watching it. The Captain of that ship is another Idiot...He made comments along the lines of: "It's going to take us awhile to get there, because it does no good to just show up to evacuate." or words to that effect.

Honestly, people like the one who asked the red cross not to come back to NO, and this captain should NOT be BREEDING! We shouldn't allow people this idiotic and stupid to damage the gene pool.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#18 Hibblette

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:58 PM

eh LoTS I think it's way tooooooooooooooo late. :unsure:  :whatsthat:  :whistle:

:howling:

And I do have to stop and laugh ever once in awhile and since I'm in cyber space I don't think the men in the white coats will get me. :dontgetit:
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#19 Spectacles

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 04:38 PM

Quote

Eloisel: Have no ships arrived yet?

Good question. I don't know. All I know is that one gentleman interviewed on MSNBC was amazed that one ship, which sounds like the Comfort, is just now leaving and so naturally won't get there until Thursday.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#20 Delvo

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 04:46 PM

It's not a stupid assumption. It's a fact. People DO do stupid things if you give them an opportunity to, and making anything easier or less painful to do WILL result in people doing more of it, and keeping that in mind IS a part of any emergency response. For example, with forest fires where there are roads closed, if you don't man the closing points, you can count on people driving past the signs even though they can see nothing but smoke (except maybe flames) themselves. And obviously more would do so still, if you made it easier or seemingly less risky by stocking smoke masks and cases of water bottles for them right behind the "road closed" signs. When a building has a scheduled demolition, you try to hold people back at a safe distance with fences, signs, and a police presence; you don't make it easier and nominally safer for them to stand too close by handing them hardhats and a warning to be careful. Why? Because they'd take it and go stand right under the thing. That's just the way it goes.

We already know that people want so much to be in New Orleans or their favorite neighborhood of it that they stayed and/or are talking about rebuilding and going right back. Those who would have wanted to do that have had a choice to make, as to whether or not it's worth the risks and drawbacks. If you reduce the risks and drawbacks and make staying or going back easier, you will sway the decisions of some people who otherwise would decide against it precisely because such services are not provided, but would like to stay/return if they were. That's just the way it goes.



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