Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Katrina Stupid Assumption Awards

Katrina Top News 2005 Homeland Security FEMA.Failure

  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#41 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:06 PM

Fort Sam Houston is in San Antonio, which is 218 miles from Galveston.  That's a ten hour trip on a 1900's train, with a march at the end of it.  

It's hard to see why 2005 jets and troop trucks can't move as fast as a steam train.

Edited by waterpanther, 03 September 2005 - 09:07 PM.

Posted Image

#42 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:11 PM

Where was the nearest military base with engineers? was it along the mississippi whichwas likely to flood over it's banks from the storm surge? Want to be on a train that has to cross a bridge that might washed out?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#43 Hibblette

Hibblette
  • Islander
  • 4,228 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:16 PM

And they were prepared to be there.

Which they were.

Our Military could have been on the ready in Lafayette-shoot even in Shreveport.

Thursday after the storm left Florida there should have been a huge effort being made to get ready.

There were some who were doing this.

Our government has even come out and admitted they just didn't think it would be this devastating.  Amazing.  Maybe you agree or see how they could fool theirselves.  But I don't see it.

It was a huge storm and even if it had totally bypassed NO and not done what everyone was saying this is the time when you say better safe then sorry.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#44 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:17 PM

We don't move troops by train in 2005, you know.  We have C-5's and other airplanes for that.  There is no place in the United States that is four days away from New Orleans by air.  

And it's really hard to drive planes along a bridge even in the best of conditions.  They tend to bust up the toll booths something fierce.

Edited by waterpanther, 03 September 2005 - 09:19 PM.

Posted Image

#45 eloisel

eloisel

    Non-sequitur

  • Islander
  • 1,998 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:40 PM

Where would the planes have landed and loaded up passengers?  How would the passengers have gotten to the place of pickup?

#46 Hibblette

Hibblette
  • Islander
  • 4,228 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:43 PM

Well there are vehicles that are known as amphibious vehicles.

Actually I've seen them all over the place today in news footages.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#47 eloisel

eloisel

    Non-sequitur

  • Islander
  • 1,998 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:49 PM

What condition is the airport in?  I've seen helicopters delivering people all day to the airport which I got the impression is being used mostly as a medical facility.  A helicopter can get in where planes can't though.

#48 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:53 PM

New Orleans has an international airport that hasn't had a lot of commercial traffic this week. It would have been clear for landing relief planes. The real problem isn't getting planes in and out; it's getting stuff to and from the airport while the city is flooded too deep for land vehicles and too shallow for boats much bigger than a canoe.

#49 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 03 September 2005 - 09:54 PM

Planes are getting into and out of Louis Armstrong Airport.  Al Gore chartered an American Airlines jet and took 131 critical patients out to hospitals in Tennessee today.  Bill Frist flew in and spent the day helping to treat patients.  Obviously the runways are now usable.

Troops could have been landed outside New Orleans and trucked the rest of the way.  It still wouldn't have taken four days.
Posted Image

#50 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 08:51 PM

Quote

Spectales: Also heard that some big hospital ship is on its way to New Orleans--as of today. Yep, today. It'll get there by Thursday--when they hope to have everyone out of New Orleans (now that the Red Cross won't be tempting them to stay for the great food and water.)
That would be the USNS Comfort.  With a top speed of only 17.5 knots the Comfort isn't the speed demon that a regular duty warship is so it will take them time to get there.  More than likely the Comfort has been delayed in recalling the crew to the ship, gathering/reinforcing the usual medical compliment, and stocking the ship with medical/humanitarian supplies.  Putting a ship as large as Comfort to sea takes time especially when you are trying to stock enough supplies to deal with something on this scale.  The ships are maintained at a status where they can put out to sea within five days of getting the order to sail for their primary mission.  New Orleans is far from your traditional type of disaster so they have probably spent the extra time packing the ship with extra supplies and crew.  So really the fact that USNS Comfort sailed when it did isn't exactly surprising.  If anything it is probably a case of the shipyard workers and her crews really hauling to get her ready for sea.  We don't know when she received tasking to sail but prior to that there isn't much her crew could have done to get her moving sooner.

Quote

Emsparks: What I want to know is why when Katrina crossed the Florida panhandle, and entered 90-degree water didn’t the government start provisioning an MEU, Hospital ship, and a container ship of relief supplies. If they had done that they could have landed supplies at land fall with in 24 hours.
That just could not have happened in that amount of time.  Let us assume that everyone was on the top of their game and had perfect coordination and knowledge that the storm was coming and where it would hit.  So they had an idea by the 26th and orders were arriving on the morning of the 27th.  You are still looking at 4 to 5 days to recall the crews of the ship, truck emergency supplies to the ports, provision the ships with enough emergency supplies, and then to get underway.  Assume we are dealing with a Nimitz Class carrier like Truman coming out of Norfolk like a bat out of hell at 33 knots.  You are still looking at a near exactly 2 day voyage assuming you stay right at maximum speed and everything goes perfectly.  That means in a perfect world with perfect coordination those ships might have been dropping supplies on the beach in about 6 to 7 days.  There are series real world time limitations when it comes to provisioning a ship with massive amounts of supplies and getting it to sea from a standstill in port.  

Do I think the administration could have sped up things somewhat by getting the tasking orders to the ship sooner?  Yes.  That said it might have gotten them there on Sept 2nd or 3rd if they cut all the corners and things went really well.  You just can't beam a 100,000 ton ship from Norfolk to New Orleans in a 24 hour period.  

Quote

LOTS: Well the mercy, I think that's the ship's name, isn't a warhip, but she looks as heavy as one. These warships are extremely heavy. Even a F5 would have a hard time wrecking it.

You are underestimating the power of the sea and that has killed many people in the past.  

In World War II Task Force 38 blundered into the path of a typhoon.  That storm was about equal to a weak category three storm so it wasn't a monster like Katrina.  We ended up loosing three destroyers that capsized and sank in the storm.  A cruiser and five carriers suffered severe damage in that storm along with several other ships suffering damage to varying degrees.  At least three of these carriers suffered from serious fires.  Planes ended up breaking their tie downs and slammed around the hangar decks leaking fuel that then ignited.  All total nearly 150 planes were rendered unrepairable wrecks with many more being damaged enough that they needed repairs.  The point I'm trying to make is warships are not immune to nature's wrath.  

Even if you manage to ride out a Category Five which a Nimitz, major Amphibious Warfare Ship, and probably a Mercy Class Hospital ship could do barring unforeseen difficulties you'd suffer severe damage.  You'd have just about everything that wasn't welded to the decks topside swept away from your lifeboats, to antennas, and god only knows what else.  Heavy equipment, supplies, and planes would break free from their tiedows or fastenings.  These things would be bouncing around the ship causing further damage to them and the ship with the constant threat of fires.  You'd have crewman being injured by equipment being tossed around or just by their being slammed into things by the force of the storm.  Any ship trying to ride out a storm that big would be too busy helping itself to help anyone.  

Quote

Hibblette: Our Military could have been on the ready in Lafayette-shoot even in Shreveport.
And if Katrina took a unforeseen turn and hit the staging areas for troops damaging their equipment and perhaps killing some of them the calls would have been against Bush stating he put the relief efforts in danger by allowing the troops who were stationed nearby get hit by the storm.  The troops should not have been stationed in any real number in the areas that the hurricane might have hit prior to it hitting the region.

Quote

Hiblette: Well there are vehicles that are known as amphibious vehicles.
And you are getting them to the region how?  Most of the vehicles that are truly capable of carrying large amounts of people or supplies are far to big to airlift and they need ships in the region for them to operate from.  So that means any amphibious vehicles that would have made a large difference needed to be brought in by ship.  I do know Bataan was using her LCUs and some local Marine units in the area used their AAVs but amphibious vehicles are a finite resource that really need to brought in by and operated from a ship.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#51 Hibblette

Hibblette
  • Islander
  • 4,228 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 09:08 PM

Stop with the excuses.

Shreveport and Bossier would not have been hit that hard with the storms if it had took a turn.

Then there's Dallas.  It wouldn't have took them long to got there if they had them stationed there.  Or even Little Rock.

The predictions of were it was going was actually pretty much on target.  And alllllllllllllllllll of this is based on Scientific fact in regards to weather.

The weather people did not just happen to track the storm going up into Mississippi and then on up straight North with luck and maybe even Voodoo.

Give me a break.

Sorry CJ-but your post is just one of those DESPERATE attempts of trying to make your sweet little boy Bush look soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

good.

He ain't.

He couldn't run his own companies.  They went spiralling into the ground.  And now OUR country is doing the same thing.

Will you stay on board or are you going to wake up to the destruction of this country? Or are you not going to evacuate with the warnings-ahhhhh how metaphorical are we suddenly.  Ya know all along I've said there are always going to be people that will stick with their city no matter who tells them to leave.  How about those people that stick with their politician NO MATTER WHAT?

And in regards to those vehicles-just tell me how? ? ? How did the press get in with all their equipment?  They're not amphipious equipment.

But the Navy has those type of vehicles.  And as I STATED I HAVE SEEN THEM IN NO SINCE SATURDAY ON THE NEWS.

Be prepared for the wrath.

You Bush supporters had better realllllllllllllllllllllllllly gear up with the excuses-you're going to need them.

The lions are at the gate.

Fresh meat. :glare:

Edited by Hibblette, 04 September 2005 - 09:22 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#52 G1223

G1223

    The Blunt Object.

  • Dead account
  • 16,164 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 09:08 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Sep 5 2005, 01:51 AM, said:

Quote

Spectales: Also heard that some big hospital ship is on its way to New Orleans--as of today. Yep, today. It'll get there by Thursday--when they hope to have everyone out of New Orleans (now that the Red Cross won't be tempting them to stay for the great food and water.)

Quote

LOTS: Well the mercy, I think that's the ship's name, isn't a warhip, but she looks as heavy as one. These warships are extremely heavy. Even a F5 would have a hard time wrecking it.

You are underestimating the power of the sea and that has killed many people in the past.  

In World War II Task Force 38 blundered into the path of a typhoon.  That storm was about equal to a weak category three storm so it wasn't a monster like Katrina.  We ended up loosing three destroyers that capsized and sank in the storm.  A cruiser and five carriers suffered severe damage in that storm along with several other ships suffering damage to varying degrees.  At least three of these carriers suffered from serious fires.  Planes ended up breaking their tie downs and slammed around the hangar decks leaking fuel that then ignited.  All total nearly 150 planes were rendered unrepairable wrecks with many more being damaged enough that they needed repairs.  The point I'm trying to make is warships are not immune to nature's wrath.  

Even if you manage to ride out a Category Five which a Nimitz, major Amphibious Warfare Ship, and probably a Mercy Class Hospital ship could do barring unforeseen difficulties you'd suffer severe damage.  You'd have just about everything that wasn't welded to the decks topside swept away from your lifeboats, to antennas, and god only knows what else.  Heavy equipment, supplies, and planes would break free from their tiedows or fastenings.  These things would be bouncing around the ship causing further damage to them and the ship with the constant threat of fires.  You'd have crewman being injured by equipment being tossed around or just by their being slammed into things by the force of the storm.  Any ship trying to ride out a storm that big would be too busy helping itself to help anyone.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I said this two days ago.

This assumes the ships did not sink in the roughest seas.

BTW that oil platform that got hockey pucked 60 miles what is it's weight compared to the aircraft carrier.

Edited by G1223, 04 September 2005 - 09:19 PM.

If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#53 Delvo

Delvo
  • Islander
  • 9,273 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 09:29 PM

So now debunking a few certain isolated nonsense ideas about what "could have been done" is somehow supporting a politician who wasn't even mentioned except to say that he should/could have done something sooner? All you've done with that nuttery is prove that you are completely beyond any kind rational  thought process.

Yes, there are serious screw-ups here, like FEMA refusing offered help and supplies when it didn't have its own in place yet and contradictory policies of saying everyone should evacuate but then not letting them leave some places, but that doesn't mean that everything that didn't work out perfectly was a screw-up. There are also physical realities that need to be dealt with here, and if you're too bloodthirsty to see it (and so hellbent on making it all out to be Bush's singular fault that merely pointing out physical realities equals defending Bush in your mind even when Bush has nothing to do with the topic at hand at all one way or the other) then you're the only one infusing obsessive politics into the story.

The desperate reaching some people are doing here to come up with more excuses to scream and rampage and yell their fire and brimstone, even on specific items where nothing better could have been done, is downright ridiculous and pathetic. If there's to be a "stupid assumptions awards" list, it should be for the armchair emergency planners who know nothing about emergency response of any kind but are coming up with these weird accusations from nowhere. Just give that insanity a rest for a while; there are plenty of ACTUAL screw-ups to pay attention to so there's no need to invent more unless the hatred itself, rather than examining the real nature of the situation, is the whole idea to you...

#54 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:03 PM

Hiblette, I do think you may have touched a nerve.   :p

And I do agree with you that Bush & Co. are about to suffer a karmic b!tchslap.  This is the second time we've had a major national disaster in which Bush has ignored warnings and spent the run-up on vacation "getting on with his life."

Once was a terrible tragedy.  Twice is a g-damned habit.
Posted Image

#55 waterpanther

waterpanther
  • Islander
  • 1,944 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:35 PM

Here are the results of surveysusa's tracking poll on Bush's performance on Katrina.  The accompanying comment describes it as freefall, but it seems to me instead to be a very steady, very steep decline, with Bush losing 10 percentage points over five days.

Quote

Daily tracking poll. 1,200 respondents each day.

Thinking just about the President of the United States ... Do you approve or disapprove of President Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina?

                 9/4  9/3  9/2  9/1  8/31
Approve      38   41   40   46   48
Disapprove  55   53   53   44   39

Bush/Katrina poll
Posted Image

#56 Natolii

Natolii
  • Islander
  • 1,246 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:43 PM

Shreveport is out the question for staging for a disaster like this. Why? Because it is still an 8 hr drive from Shreveport to New Orleans. I have a friend in Munroe which is due East of Shreveport.

The National Guard (What little there was) staged in Beauregard... This is according to my friend Thrashman, who is a member of the LA National Guard. He called his brother in the Munroe area and let him know what was going on and what was being said. His brother told me and another friend.

So he and his unit were called up, got to base and then drove 8 hrs to Beauregard...
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#57 emsparks

emsparks
  • Forever Missed
  • 2,426 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:46 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Sep 4 2005, 09:51 PM, said:


Quote

Emsparks: What I want to know is why when Katrina crossed the Florida panhandle, and entered 90-degree water didn’t the government start provisioning an MEU, Hospital ship, and a container ship of relief supplies. If they had done that they could have landed supplies at land fall with in 24 hours.
That just could not have happened in that amount of time.  Let us assume that everyone was on the top of their game and had perfect coordination and knowledge that the storm was coming and where it would hit.  So they had an idea by the 26th and orders were arriving on the morning of the 27th.  You are still looking at 4 to 5 days to recall the crews of the ship, truck emergency supplies to the ports, provision the ships with enough emergency supplies, and then to get underway.  Assume we are dealing with a Nimitz Class carrier like Truman coming out of Norfolk like a bat out of hell at 33 knots.  You are still looking at a near exactly 2 day voyage assuming you stay right at maximum speed and everything goes perfectly.  That means in a perfect world with perfect coordination those ships might have been dropping supplies on the beach in about 6 to 7 days.  There are series real world time limitations when it comes to provisioning a ship with massive amounts of supplies and getting it to sea from a standstill in port.  

Do I think the administration could have sped up things somewhat by getting the tasking orders to the ship sooner?  Yes.  That said it might have gotten them there on Sept 2nd or 3rd if they cut all the corners and things went really well.  You just can't beam a 100,000 ton ship from Norfolk to New Orleans in a 24 hour period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



CJ;
I respect you highly, and yes I made a mistake about the time to provision a taskforce, which an MEU with a container ship would be. However the basic premise still stands. We should be attacking the after math of these storms from the sea without any reliance on an assumed preexisting infrastructure.  We already have a highly trained and motivated mechanism to do just that, “A Marine amphibious task force.” This is the first flood that I have seen pictures of, where I have yet to see any amphibious vehicles shown in the press.

Let me be more succinct, scientist with the unfolding data to back them up have said that since 1995 the oceans are getting warmer. The operative phrase being “is getting warmer,” not “will get warmer.” The same scientists, including NASA and NAOA are saying that the warmer the water the stronger the Hurricanes. So, there is no doubt that the weather for Florida and the Gulf coast at the least is going to get worse. If we de mothballed some of the LHA type ships, parked them at Norfolk, preloaded then with equipment and supplies, them with only the minimal crew we use now to maintain then in moth ball, we could have them held ready for marine reservist during Hurricane season. They could be usable as training ships year around.

As I have suggest that if such ships where preloaded and took up position at sea to both avoid and follow the storm we would have done a whole hell of a lot better and the as usual the Marines could by the time for the Army, in the form of the National Guard to come on line.
Sparky::

Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.

#58 Anarch

Anarch
  • Islander
  • 1,136 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 11:08 PM

Whoa, what?

CJ Aegis said:

You are still looking at 4 to 5 days to recall the crews of the ship, truck emergency supplies to the ports, provision the ships with enough emergency supplies, and then to get underway.

You're telling me that with four years to prepare we haven't made plans for this sort of thing?  No crews on permanent call, no ships ready and provisioned?  WTF?

#59 Hibblette

Hibblette
  • Islander
  • 4,228 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 11:09 PM

But even 8 hours would have been better then 4 days.

Right?
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#60 Hibblette

Hibblette
  • Islander
  • 4,228 posts

Posted 04 September 2005 - 11:12 PM

waterpanther, on Sep 4 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

Hiblette, I do think you may have touched a nerve.   :p

And I do agree with you that Bush & Co. are about to suffer a karmic b!tchslap.  This is the second time we've had a major national disaster in which Bush has ignored warnings and spent the run-up on vacation "getting on with his life."

Once was a terrible tragedy.  Twice is a g-damned habit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Amazing how they can still come up with the exuses to stay with the disaster.

:whistle:
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Katrina, Top News 2005, Homeland Security, FEMA.Failure

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users