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#81 Anarch

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 04:06 PM

Quote

Zack: Buckeye's? Is that one of the MAC teams?

I think I'm in  :love:  :devil:

Edited by Anarch, 06 September 2005 - 04:07 PM.


#82 emsparks

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 05:31 PM

emsparks, on Sep 6 2005, 01:22 PM, said:

School Buses?

Two points;

1. From the pictures I saw the buses of which you speak where under water. AND the water hit fast once the levee broke there was just no time.

2. Do you have any idea how low the pay of a school bus driver is, who was going to see to the driverís families? Cops and firemen are a lot different and a whole hell of a lot better paid, and very often donít live in the community, where school bus drivers for the most part canít live out side the community. No there would have to been practices and a lot of them, for that Idea to fly. Practices the city, and the school; bus companies most likely couldnít have paid for. No given the resources needed it was DHS responsibility to come up with a mass transportation plan, the city would not have the resources or expertise to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Accoding to Lou Dobbs on CNN I'm wrong about the buses. The city did in fact blow it.

I stand corrected...
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#83 MuseZack

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 05:49 PM

emsparks, on Sep 6 2005, 10:31 PM, said:

Accoding to Lou Dobbs on CNN I'm wrong about the buses. The city did in fact blow it.

I stand corrected...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Sparky, while the city and state are far from blameless here, "what about the buses?" is a Republican spin point and distraction they've been trying to feed to the press since the weekend.  Don't fall for it.   Before the streets (and buses) flooded, there was no place to take everyone in the buses (a problem with the state, local, and federal plan to be sure) even if they could have rounded up the drivers from wherever they all were.  And by the time shelters outside the disaster area were set up, the city's buses had flooded.
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#84 emsparks

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 06:52 PM

^^^

Dear Zack;

Iím not falling for the Republican line. Mr. Dobbs is not known for being an administration lackey; as a matter of fact heís calling for the firing of the FEMA director. He said smoothing that had the ring of truth to it, that at the very least part of the Cityís disaster plan was to use school buses and trains to evacuate the poor. Now I understand that to most citiesí their disaster plans are nothing more then a pile of paper meant to fulfill a government requirement for federal funding. Even if the mayor was not aware of the plan, he should have known that the Levees where most likely to fail in a cat four storm. The buses where part of his plan he should have at the very least had the buses moved to higher ground, say in and around the French quarter or up on high way over passes. Under the circumstances itís too simple of a thing not to do. It says that the mayor was poorly advised, because most mayors donít read their disaster plans either. So yes I say the city blew it. However keeping to proportionality, the buses would have been of only limited usability, and if the city blew it that the feds had improper relations with the proverbial dog, or pooch as it where.

Edited to correct typos and english.

Edited by emsparks, 06 September 2005 - 06:58 PM.

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#85 Nick

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 07:05 PM

The buses are certainly a piece the city should've tried harder to take advantage of, but simply rounding up all the off-duty school bus drivers to haphazardly sweep through the rougher areas of New Orleans trying to pick up elderly, infirm, and potentially dangerous people without enough support/security to screen for weapons and drugs and help for those with special medical needs . . . a bad plan could've done more harm than good.

That being said, I was quite the news junkie in the buildup before the storm and I saw much of the Nagin footage.  He was the picture of cool confidence, sure that New Orleans had the situation under control.  He explicitly stated the levees would fail, he explicitly ordered everyone out of town.  He was very clear that the Superdome was only to be a shelter of last resort for those who had absolutely no other means and DO NOT try to wait out the storm in your own home.  He also explicitly stated "if you're thinking of driving over to the superdome to wait out the storm, get in your car and drive right on out of town."

His mood has obviously changed, and I think he royally screwed up on his half-assed evac plan.  Then again, he was proceeding under the (false) assumption that FEMA would rush in with relief supplies, buses, have shelters ready to go and airlift the stranded people out.

The truth of the matter is many people dropped the ball in every level of government.  Tens of thousands are likely dead and dying that could've been saved.  In other words, the government (who's primary reason for existing is to protect the governed) on all levels has completely failed a large portion of the American people.  Time to identify all those responsible and have them replaced as quickly as possible (short of another revolutionary war and all).

-Nick

#86 Cait

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 07:14 PM

Nick, on Sep 6 2005, 05:05 PM, said:

The truth of the matter is many people dropped the ball in every level of government.  Tens of thousands are likely dead and dying that could've been saved.  In other words, the government (who's primary reason for existing is to protect the governed) on all levels has completely failed a large portion of the American people.  Time to identify all those responsible and have them replaced as quickly as possible (short of another revolutionary war and all).

-Nick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This is an absolute truth.  The primary reason a government exists is to protect the governed.  That failure [on all levels] is reason enough to remove them all from office.  The all entered public office ostensibly to serve.  I think it's time we actually held them to that standard.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#87 Nick

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 07:20 PM

emsparks, on Sep 6 2005, 07:52 PM, said:

at the very least part of the Cityís disaster plan was to use school buses and trains to evacuate the poor.

This all occured before the storm, from the local news footage I had watched.  However, it was clearly not enough and the buses weren't orchestrated well enough to coordinate evac efforts and none were adequately equipped to handle the elderly or frail (you may recall an article about a number of senior citizens dying on such an evac bus).

Quote

Even if the mayor was not aware of the plan, he should have known that the Levees where most likely to fail in a cat four storm.

He was well aware of the plan and well aware the levees would fail and said so in no uncertain terms before the storm even hit.  He also said that the pumps would fail once they were under water and there would be no way to get the water out of the city for weeks, possibly months.  And it would be a "toxic soup" of disease, waste and industrial chemicals.  (And it would've been a lot worse but fortunately part of the disaster plan was flushing the sewer system out to sea and sealing it off as best they could to minimize the amount of refuse the flood waters would contain).

Quote

The buses where part of his plan he should have at the very least had the buses moved to higher ground, say in and around the French quarter or up on high way over passes.

If you've ever been to the French quarter, it's an old historic district.  The streets are narrow, the buildings close together, and most of the traffic there is on foot.  There's also residential space all around there and those that had access to cars were still using what wider streets there are to get to the highways to get out of town. You're simply not gonna find much space to shove a bunch of school buses in the Quarter without trapping evacuees and emergency workers.  And they'll be of little use while the city's still flooded since they'd be surrounded almost entirely by impassible water.

And the over passes/ramps were still being used by evacuees to get out of town all up to the storm and some of the way through it.

To put it more simply--there wasn't any high ground for them to put the buses.

-Nick

Edited by Nick, 06 September 2005 - 07:23 PM.


#88 Hibblette

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:03 PM

G1223, on Sep 6 2005, 10:11 AM, said:

Well reading a lot of threads in OT I have to say a lot of folks enjoy bad mouthing the President and anyone who supports him. We had Hibblette do that with CJ Aegis a day or so ago when all he was trying to do was explain what reality was. Not to support a political leaderhttp://www.exisle.net/mb/index.php?showtopic=30967&st=50 I direct attention to post 51.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


G you can kiss it but first let me eat a big bowl of beans.

:devil:

Reality.

Reality is people dying because the Governor did ask for the help and the response?

Reality is that the locals cannot handle a catastrophe like this due to the fact that they are to much a part of the catastrophe.  Meaning they have families and friends that are in this locality.

How many N.O. Policemen have killed theirselves?

How many of them and the firefighters even know what happened to their small children or even their big children.  And maybe even their mothers and fathers who are probably advanced in years.  THIS IS WHY THE FEDS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE THERE.  Duh!

Of course that's a reality that has to do with everyday life.

Not the reality that has to do with the elitist that make up the Bush Administration.

It rest squarely on his shoulders.  That is what being the COMMANDER IN CHIEF is all about.  

Reality.

The reality is we have an idiot in office.  But he's an elitist and all should be fine. :angel:

Now let's all join in a big circle and start singing Oscar & Hammerstein tunes.

My personal favorites are from The Sound of Music and South Pacific.

Edited by Hibblette, 06 September 2005 - 08:06 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#89 Hibblette

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:10 PM

Oh and BTW, I'll take any of your midwestern teams and put my now defunct SW Conference agin ye.

:devil:

Suuueeeiiiiieeee Razorbacks!

Hook 'em Horns

Gig Em

and my personal favorite-the Red Raiders-gotta love a guy in a mask. :ninja:
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#90 G1223

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:43 PM

Sorry Hibb I would only give the hot rod there since you deserved it. You acted like some sort of moral judge and the reality is you are MILES from being anything like that. You and the other vomiters have gone on on on on and on for thread after thread.

You want discourse drop the act.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
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If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

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#91 Anarch

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:54 PM

Quote

You and the other vomiters have gone on on on on and on for thread after thread.

"Vomiters"?

#92 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 08:57 PM

Lover of Purple, on Sep 6 2005, 09:01 AM, said:

A president relies on his staff to do their jobs. My hope is that when this is under control, President Bush fires a few members of that staff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



That point is taken.  However, the Buck  has to stop somewhere and he's the one with the title.  A real leader doesn't just take credit when things go right, he sucks it up and accepts the responsibility when he (or, as the case may be, his staff) screws up.

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#93 Hibblette

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 09:27 PM

G1223, on Sep 6 2005, 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry Hibb I would only give the hot rod there since you deserved it. You acted like some sort of moral judge and the reality is you are MILES from being anything like that. You and the other vomiters have gone on on on on and on for thread after thread.

You want discourse drop the act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why don't you drop the act?

The problem is that so many Republicans (true Republicans) have staked so much in on this guy and now then all of it is falling apart.

You know those of us that backed Bill when it came down to it we said, "Okay-he lied."

I have as of yet to see even THAT from you darling little lambs.
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#94 Norville

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:46 PM

Long post ahoy...

Quote

Is a day spent not hating anyone or finding fault with anyone a complete waste of time?

A nasty question, and a nasty problem. I'd quite like to go through life without finding fault -- but considering practically everyone finds fault with me, no matter what, the hostility kind of rubs off onto me. I get so much contempt and condescension in my daily life, it's ridiculous.

I don't want to hate; I'd rather love. People seem to be intent on making that rather difficult. (Let me not discuss yet again what I've been thinking of "Love thy neighbor" lately... :eek: )

What I *really* want to do is to be serene, stoic, Zen, and let the viciousness go. I find the desire and the practice to be rather different. *sigh*

Spectacles said:

Yeah, I kinda thought that this was really about slamming those who are critical of the federal response to the devastation of Katrina.

Indeed. Sorry, I'm not going to give up my right of free speech to make people happy and comfortable about this disaster. Don't expect me to do so.

Spectacles said:

it is pure knee-jerk Bush-cheerleading to attempt to spank people for expressing their thoughts and feelings about this national tragedy if those thoughts and feeling happen to lay any blame whatsoever at the Bush administration's feet.

And I'd rather not let anyone get away with it, but at the same time, my desire to participate in OT again is waning. Let's hope it wanes entirely before someone reports me to Homeland Security. :p~

Zwolf666 said:

I'd like to say a lot of things back to you for that completely a-hole comment, but it'd never pass the board guidelines. I'll be sure to remember you said it, though. Especially if I ever meet you in person.

Zwolf, please forgive me for interceding, but could I request that you not stoop to the level of suggesting physical threats? It wasn't cute when G was doing it a while ago, and I'd prefer you not to do it, either... but you're welcome to tell me to shut up. (I'm not asking you to apologize.)

MuseZack said:

Injustice angers me. The needless deaths of my fellow Americans and human beings angers me. And frankly, the whole "let's not find fault with anyone, let's just pull together and focus on the positive" attitude is part of what got us into this mess in the first place.

I'm just quoting this in order to say "Aye!"

Zwolf666 said:

I try to pencil in a few minutes each day for hatefulness and spite, just to try to keep up. But I don't have to tell you that: you obviously understand how important such things are.

I also enjoy spending my time replying to posts that find fault with others for finding fault with others. Now that's time well spent!

:lol:

Nonny said:

If they posted the bodies, they should have stuck signs on the dead looters, like, stole milk that couldn't be sold anyway for her kids who are still stuck somewhere and have probably starved by now. Oh wait, that's too long for a sign, isn't it?

No, it's not too long for a sign. I've saved a newspaper photo of a sign that a shopowner left outside: "DON'T TRY. I AM SLEEPING INSIDE WITH A BIG DOG, AN UGLY WOMAN, TWO SHOTGUNS, AND A CLAW HAMMER. LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT." ;)

Cait said:

There is a vast difference between droning on and on and pushing a political agenda vs. being outraged at real events. There's a time to be rational and thoughtful and whatever brand of 'nice' is demanded here on EI.

Aye again.

Zwolf666 said:

I'm getting a little tired of constantly being condemned for things, even if I haven't done them.

Oh, welcome to my daily life. Isn't that scary? Actually, just infuriating...

Anarch said:

I, for example, am damn well pursuing a political agenda: ousting the incompetents whose malfeasance cost thousands of lives.

Well, yes. I think I'm at that point, too. Don't like it? Ever so sorry.

Hibblette said:

How many N.O. Policemen have killed theirselves?

I'm not certain how many; the last I'd heard, an official was commenting that "several" police had committed suicide. I heard no clarification: if they did it because they'd looted and weren't up to having their careers destroyed when/if they were nailed for it or because they'd seen too much and couldn't deal with it.
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#95 Hibblette

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 10:59 PM

Quote

QUOTE(Hibblette)
How many N.O. Policemen have killed theirselves?


Quote

Norville: I'm not certain how many; the last I'd heard, an official was commenting that "several" police had committed suicide. I heard no clarification: if they did it because they'd looted and weren't up to having their careers destroyed when/if they were nailed for it or because they'd seen too much and couldn't deal with it.


There is such a thing as the syndrome that happens with those within the Emergency Response persons that will lead to Suicide.  A lot of times it is the direct result of such horrid and overwhelming things as the fact they feel they did not do enough.  Point in case is the very guy that pulled little Jessica from the well in West Texas, 1987.  He was a hero.  And yet he was haunted until the day he took his own life and I can't answer why-but it's there.  A big ol' white elephant in the middle of the living room.  Why?

These guys may have looted.  But maybe it was the carnage they have seen around them in the place they have called home and maybe even grew up in.

Again this is why the Federal government is suppose to be there.  There is a detachment that helps them deal with the important decisions that need to be made.  But the detachment is not suppose to be "well we will see in a week or two."

Edited by Hibblette, 06 September 2005 - 11:06 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#96 eloisel

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Posted 06 September 2005 - 11:28 PM

eloisel, on Sep 6 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

Spectacles, on Sep 6 2005, 02:37 PM, said:

Why don't you go first. ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to think that I have emotions that are more important to me than disgust, hatred, dislike, unhappiness, displeasure.  I'd like to think that it isn't my goal in life to ridicule, judge, condemn, or demonize others.  I would like to think that about myself.  And, so, I'm going to call it quits for awhile because it really is important to me that my life has more in it than how much negativity I can ingest and spew back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks to those who considered my questions and gave an honest answer.

Thanks to those who pointed out my character flaws and believe there are subtexts to my questions.  Severely flawed I am.  However, the subtexts belong to the ones who raised them.  

For the record, I am very southern, born and raised in Texas as well as have lived all over the south and even a few parts up north.

Thanks especially to Zwolf for thinking I have some class, and to Queen Tiye for once again looking at what I write from my perspective and not through some other author's lenses.

P.S. to Zwolf - I am active in animal rescue and do hospice care for elderly and injured cats and dogs with a few iguanas and birds in the mix, even though I don't do opossums, the only thing I'd actually poke a stick at.  I very much would like to make the world a better place for animals, even the ones that will eventully wind up on my barbecue.

And, now, the song coming from the other room has me off thinking on other things ...
Nine naked men just walking down the road
would cause a heap of trouble for all concerned

Yes, indeedy, I think it just might.

#97 emsparks

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 06:33 AM

Nick;
Look I donít know the New Orleans area, but at the very least the Mayor when he called for a voluntary evacuation could have move the busses out of town to be brought back in after the storm. There was a hell of a lot of things that the mayor could have done. I am not diminishing the level of failure of the federal government.

For instance:
Every body is praising the presents of the 82nd airborne. The 82nd is tasked with being able to go anywhere in the world with in 36 hours.

Yes there are laws but sometimes you have to break those laws, and no law would have been broken if the soldiers only fired when fired on, the right of self-protection.

Here is something a mayor could have done by decree. The mayor could have given active duty federal military personnel in his city the right to openly bear arms, the right of citizenship in the city with the right to perform citizenís arrests. That way the federal government could not have hidden behind the law as easily as they do now. The Mayor could have done the same for visiting police officers, once they registered with the New Orleans police. He could have bent the framework of the law and gotten away with it. If he had done so and it was declared illegal in the aftermath, under such circumstances no judge is going to do more to him then slap his wrist.
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#98 G1223

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 09:36 AM

Well now the police are going to forcibly remove survivors starting today. Guess it was too silly to do say before the storm hit for a city that is below sea level.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#99 Kosh

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 11:04 AM

G1223, on Sep 7 2005, 10:36 AM, said:

Well now the police are going to forcibly remove survivors starting today. Guess it was too silly to do say before the storm hit for a city that is below sea level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Andf there you have the whole point behind blaming the local government for a lot of what happened. Thousands should have been evaced before the storm hit.
Can't Touch This!!

#100 Lin731

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 11:42 AM

Quote

Thanks to those who pointed out my character flaws and believe there are subtexts to my questions. Severely flawed I am. However, the subtexts belong to the ones who raised them.


Well given that you were attempting to do that very thing to others, it ought not be that surprising that they'd do the same to you in reply. As for subtext, there was nothing subtexty in your thread, the intent was pretty clear. Your options made the intent of your thread transparent.

Quote

P.S. to Zwolf - I am active in animal rescue and do hospice care for elderly and injured cats and dogs with a few iguanas and birds in the mix, even though I don't do opossums, the only thing I'd actually poke a stick at. I very much would like to make the world a better place for animals, even the ones that will eventully wind up on my barbecue.


Those are fine qualities to have an I applaude you for your efforts but the "subtle slam" is not one of your gifts. Had I posted a thread like this, what would your assumption about MY intentions be?

Quote

Just curious, on the daily average, what do you Christian fundementalists spend most of your time on:

ignorance
bigotry
homophobia
righteous indignation
racism

or looking for ways to

ridicule
judge
condemn
demonize
others?

Is a day spent not hating anyone or finding fault with anyone a complete waste of time?

Just curious.


So you can claim the "injured/misunderstood" party all you want but if I bought that, I'd be the proud owner of swampland in Florida as well. I don't care about the obvious intent of your post or that we tick you off with our feelings about what happened in NOLA or that we think it's been incompetently handled from the top down...None of that bothers me, the only thing that does bother me is the attempt to pretend the thread was something other than what it was...you voicing your displeasure with other posters POV and negative assessments of how it was handled.
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