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Does it bother anyone else that the NOLA police

Katrina NOLA Police

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#1 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 06:08 AM

their homes?
Yes, it does bother me.  I don't see any legal justification. Certainly there may still be elderly or infirm people who should leave, but I'd rather see them convinced to do so by friends or family.  The police need a warrant to search someone's house, and I always thought you had to commit a crime before police could take you into custody. The idea of forcing people out of their homes is repellant to me. Haven't heard of any yet, but I would like to see this fought out in court.
If this is Government looking out for the People, why do I get the feeling this has potential for some major real estate shenanigans? Can't you see whole neighborhoods being condemned and bulldozed?
As I said in another topic, I would not want to leave the city if my home was at all habitable, and I'd want to be the one to decide if it was.
Pax,
Julianus

#2 Godeskian

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 06:25 AM

Yes and no.

No, because unlike the people living there, whose decisions are inevitably coloured by their emotions regarding their homes and the disaster, an objective outsider can probably make a more logical decision regarding what is safe.

Yes, because I can see the potential for RE abuse in New Orleans.

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#3 Spectacles

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:01 AM

Regardless of whether it's reasonable and legal, I just can't watch it. It's too painful. And it's just one more "too painful" thing on top of so many for those folks.
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#4 Godeskian

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:10 AM

{{{ Specs }}} I can understand that. But i'm on the outside looking in, which gives me a different, and more distant perspective.

I wish there was something I could do to help

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#5 Kosh

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:24 AM

I think I would have to fight, if I really wanted to stay.
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#6 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:35 AM

Hi Godeskian,
Granted the emotions would enter into a decision, but I think it is foundation of U.S. democracy that individuals are allowed to make personal decisions especially in regard to their own property that do not adversely affect other people.
As I understand it some parts of the city were under much more water than others, and people from one neighborhood where the water hadn't totally inundated the houses were allowed back in to retrieve personal possessions. Another report a couple of days ago said that the business center and the French Quarter had only a foot of water in them. New Orleans, I am sure, has suffered from floods before without being "totally destroyed" to quote the Deputy Chief of Police. Just makes me very suspicious, though from a considerable distance, as to what is going on.

#7 Natolii

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:37 AM

There comes a time when you have to realize the gravity of the situation. With the Natural Gas and Oil leaks, the City is a literal powder keg. You have to look at the welfare of the people over their wishes, especially since many of these people may or may not realize that they are in deadly danger.

And those houses may not even be safe to live in.

Read the following description from a resident of the West Bank. This is my friend that was forced to flee with her family. The left prior to the storm and are staying up near Munroe, La.::

Quote

Well, for the moment we have been slightly luckier then most. We live over on the West Bank, which didn't get hit nearly as bad as New Orleans, but we are still in some trouble.

We lost most of the shingles on the roof due to wind damage. We have some broken windows and our fence is gone. Either washed away or blown off. The backyard (ie Our Swamp now)  that we recently had filled to shore up the foundation  has been washed away. Those that went down last Monday pulled out ruined carpet, but we don't know fully if that is from water flooding the house or from sewage backup. The house is also starting to sink and tilt to one side.

Thankfully my father is fully covered with both deluxe Homeowners and flood insurance. Now, the trouble we now face is that as of today, at 6pm, they have locked down our Parish (Jefferson). They will not let anyone in, and the only vehicles allowed will be only those for emergency services. They have given us a tentative date of September 30th as the time they "might" let us return. Trouble is, by that time if the weather runs it's usual course, what damage we have will end up being magnified. No shingles on the roof, means leaks into the house and the items inside. Without the ability to get more dirt into the backyard, we may end up facing a cracked foundation and that is even worse.

My dad just had the overhangs done and the roof worked on just after T.S. Cindy so he's now grumbling about all this, having thought the roof would at least survive if nothing else. It's a mess, no doubt. Many I know and care for have lost everything and I feel deeply for them. Yet again, I am blessed, because all my family and friends are safe and in the end that really is all that matters.

To all those that have lost so much more you have my deepest sympathy and I mourn for you all, along with the City that I also love. I grew up running the streets of New Orleans and to see it in such a state, leaves me in sorrow that I can't even put into words.

And conditions in NOLA are far worse. I'd say the forced evacuations are warrented at this point. It's a matter or life ot death, quite literally.

Edited by Natolii, 09 September 2005 - 07:39 AM.

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#8 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:55 AM

Spectacles, on Sep 9 2005, 12:01 PM, said:

Regardless of whether it's reasonable and legal, I just can't watch it. It's too painful. And it's just one more "too painful" thing on top of so many for those folks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Those people have to be in some kind of state of shock to be so uprooted. Maybe that's a saving grace for them in the short run in that it might make them a bit numb and help them to look at things just one day at a time.
A group landed on Cape Cod at 3AM today. Some even had pets with them according to reports. The state government and volunteers staged quite a welcome for them and the evacuees were highly appreciative. I thought this was a very positive moment.

http://www.theboston...086/detail.html
BOURNE, Mass. -- A second plane full of 100 Hurricane Katrina evacuees from New Orleans landed on Cape Cod about 3 a.m. Friday morning. They are being given shelter at Camp Edwards, part of the Massachusetts Military Reservation.

More than 100 evacuees who arrived earlier, on Thursday, were given medical attention. Officials said many were just happy to have their first break from the disaster.

NewsCenter 5's Gail Huff reported that the lastest group of evacuees to arrive will wake up Friday 1,900 miles from the Gulf Coast, and they'll be calling Camp Edwards home for the next couple of months. The camp has readied temporary housing in brick barracks that can accommodate up to 2,500.

"There was a lot of crying, a lot of clapping, a lot of raised hands -- those of us in the church community know what that means -- and a lot of smiles. They're very tired but they're also very, very happy," the Rev. Jeffrey Brown said.

Brown, pastor of the Union Baptist Church in Cambridge, was asked to serve as an unofficial "mayor" of Camp Edwards Village. He said the evacuees were given food, medical attention and help with housing. Those able to work will also get help with job placement.

Most came with only the clothes on their backs, plucked from rooftops and homes, reluctant to leave New Orleans.

"The few people I talked to had never been out of their parish. Most that I spoke to had never been on a plane before. And they're just enjoying themselves. They're utilizing the phone banks there to try to make contact with relatives. They're trying on donated clothes that they've had, some are just eating, and a lot them are just sitting down and talking to the volunteers and each other," Peter Judge of the Massachusetts Emergency Management Agency (MEMA) said.

Brown read a letter given to him by Tina Burns, one of the evacuees, which said in part:

"The power of your concern is overwhelming. Tears stream down our face as you assure us safety, normalcy and hope, something we lost as Katrina ravaged our beautiful cities."

A third of the evacuees brought to Massachusetts are elderly and many need immediate medical attention. The children who arrived will be enrolled in local public schools as soon as they get settled.

#9 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 07:57 AM

Kosh, on Sep 9 2005, 12:24 PM, said:

I think I would have to fight, if I really wanted to stay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hopefully the stubborn ones will hideout rather than try to fight. Those cops have been through Hell.
I still wish someone would bring a court challenge.

#10 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 08:09 AM

Natolii, on Sep 9 2005, 12:37 PM, said:

There comes a time when you have to realize the gravity of the situation. With the Natural Gas and Oil leaks, the City is a literal powder keg. You have to look at the welfare of the people over their wishes, especially since many of these people may or may not realize that they are in deadly danger.

And those houses may not even be safe to live in.

Read the following description from a resident of the West Bank. This is my friend that was forced to flee with her family. The left prior to the storm and are staying up near Munroe, La.::

Quote

Well, for the moment we have been slightly luckier then most. We live over on the West Bank, which didn't get hit nearly as bad as New Orleans, but we are still in some trouble.

We lost most of the shingles on the roof due to wind damage. We have some broken windows and our fence is gone. Either washed away or blown off. The backyard (ie Our Swamp now)  that we recently had filled to shore up the foundation  has been washed away. Those that went down last Monday pulled out ruined carpet, but we don't know fully if that is from water flooding the house or from sewage backup. The house is also starting to sink and tilt to one side.

Thankfully my father is fully covered with both deluxe Homeowners and flood insurance. Now, the trouble we now face is that as of today, at 6pm, they have locked down our Parish (Jefferson). They will not let anyone in, and the only vehicles allowed will be only those for emergency services. They have given us a tentative date of September 30th as the time they "might" let us return. Trouble is, by that time if the weather runs it's usual course, what damage we have will end up being magnified. No shingles on the roof, means leaks into the house and the items inside. Without the ability to get more dirt into the backyard, we may end up facing a cracked foundation and that is even worse.

My dad just had the overhangs done and the roof worked on just after T.S. Cindy so he's now grumbling about all this, having thought the roof would at least survive if nothing else. It's a mess, no doubt. Many I know and care for have lost everything and I feel deeply for them. Yet again, I am blessed, because all my family and friends are safe and in the end that really is all that matters.

To all those that have lost so much more you have my deepest sympathy and I mourn for you all, along with the City that I also love. I grew up running the streets of New Orleans and to see it in such a state, leaves me in sorrow that I can't even put into words.

And conditions in NOLA are far worse. I'd say the forced evacuations are warrented at this point. It's a matter or life ot death, quite literally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Wow! Thanks for sharing that. My best wishes to you and your friend for as speedy a recovery as possible. Please keep your eyes and ears open and let us know how things are going.

Jmho, but I think even as a "foreigner" from Massachusetts, I'd like to see some professional outside opinions on what the Corps and government officials are saying about what is necessary for the recovery and how fast it might be achieved. Maybe your Governor or State Legislature could do something like that.
Again, my sincere best wishes to you,
Julianus

#11 Natolii

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 08:30 AM

Well, considering I'm in Massachusetts too, I am glad we had the space to be able to accomodate some of them.

My friend was very lucky. She had someone that would have driven down to get her family out if they couldn't do it themselves. She also is very lucky to have her sister's boyfriend living with them. See in this family you have an Adult female with MS, an older gentleman, a 14 yr-old child with Graves, and my friend who is permanently disabled due to a fall down a flight of stairs (Shattered kneecap).

Hopefully things will work out, but you have to picture 7 people living in a 2 bedroom trailer. Our other friend does not mind at all. He would rather see them safe first.
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#12 Zwolf

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 08:32 AM

Well, it sucks, but I can understand it.  That area is a disease breeding ground, what with all the crap that's in the water.  Relief workers are already strained enough with what they have on their plate now... if they start having to deal with people getting sick - especially if it's an epidemic that they might spread - on top of what they've already got, then it'd be a real menace to public health.  The people who aren't wanting to leave aren't really being reasonable right now... it's not a safe place to be, and nobody wants them to die so they're putting rescue workers at risk by trying to keep getting food and water to them.  If they can get the place detoxified and cleaned up, then, by all means, let 'em go back.  Right now it's a swamp full of rotting bodies, sewage, spilled chemicals, and who knows what else.  They need to leave that place for their own good, and so relief workers will have a better chance to do what needs doing.  Sad that people have to be pulled away, but it's understandable.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#13 Cardie

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 08:34 AM

I'm not keen on the forcible removals, but as for the legalities, the city is under martial law, which changes things.  I see this more like an epidemic situation in which public officials have the right to quarantine people.  Only here it's the city that is so toxic that it has to be separated from its residents.

I, however, share your concerns re: bulldozing and real estate profiteering.  We have about 800 evacuees here in Columbia now, and most that have been interviewed don't want to return to NO.  They also were people who had seen little of the country beyond the city, and when told they were coming to Columbia SC, thought it was a rural place in the middle of nowhere, harrumph.  (Our population is nearly that of NO in fact..)  Our evacuees are being put up for thirty days in city hotels and then being found local housing.  Blue Cross booked an entire TraveLodge for the month, and it is allowing pets.

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#14 ShotenStar

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 08:37 AM

A difficult situation, to be sure.  But the government has to weigh the risks -- both to citizens who may not have the necessary skills or knowledge to accurately evaluate the risk to themselves and to the professionals who will have to risk their lives to go in and save these people if the situation gets worse.

Given the toxic nature of the environment plus the lack of basic services for the foreseeable future, I have to side with the government on this one.  Getting everyone out is in the best interests of all concerned.  We can only hope it will be done gently and calmly, on both sides.

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#15 Natolii

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 09:05 AM

There is one spot of in this that wasn't touched on.

The NG and Police are not forcing people. They are using persuasion. In many case, those that have said they were not leaving are changing their minds. They are realizing that they need to leave.

Yes, it is mandatory, but time and conditions are doing the work for the police.

http://www.turnto10....230/detail.html

Quote

Meanwhile, conditions in New Orleans may be getting bad enough to force even the staunchest holdouts to leave their homes. A spokesman for one of the federal agencies involved in the effort said rescuers are finding more and more residents willing to leave.

"Some are finally saying, 'I've had enough.' They're getting dehydrated. They are running out of food," Michael Keegan, of U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, said.

There are increasing concerns about the risks posed by the floodwaters. Tests confirm they contain sewage-related bacteria in amounts at least 10 times higher than acceptable limits.

Searchers -- including soldiers armed with M-16's -- continue to make their way through New Orleans neighborhoods, finding corpses, and trying to persuade the last stubborn residents to leave.

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#16 G1223

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 09:29 AM

Julianus, on Sep 9 2005, 11:08 AM, said:

their homes?
Yes, it does bother me.  I don't see any legal justification. Certainly there may still be elderly or infirm people who should leave, but I'd rather see them convinced to do so by friends or family.  The police need a warrant to search someone's house, and I always thought you had to commit a crime before police could take you into custody. The idea of forcing people out of their homes is repellant to me. Haven't heard of any yet, but I would like to see this fought out in court.
If this is Government looking out for the People, why do I get the feeling this has potential for some major real estate shenanigans? Can't you see whole neighborhoods being condemned and bulldozed?
As I said in another topic, I would not want to leave the city if my home was at all habitable, and I'd want to be the one to decide if it was.
Pax,
Julianus

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well I guess they could always just leave those people to live in the area with raw sewage human waste and rotting bodies to contaminate the area. Would those who desperately want to remain behind be willing to sign off on a release saying that the city cannot be sued due to their being stupid.


Idea is to get people out of there so that they do not get typhus or a host of other deseases. They do not want children to get these illnesses because the parents have the combine intellegence of a sea sponge and refuse to leave.

A huge part of the city is going to be condemmed due to water damage  or from fires started from sewer gases or damged gas mains. I guess we could leave people to quietly die in the city if it means so much to them. But I would also issue a cerfew and order the troops to shoot any looting the red cross to not drop anymore food and water and  let those folks bravely hang on till they die.

Sometimes it is sad to watch people want to kill themselves but hey they can even drag their kids down with them yay stupid them.
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#17 Lin731

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 09:45 AM

Does it bother me? Yes it does, I feel awful for those people but sadly there's nothing else that can be done. The water is a chemical soup of lead spiced with human waste, gas, oil, chemicals of every sort. It's also my understanding that the chemicals they'll be using to clean up the mess are extremely toxic to humanbeings as well.
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#18 Hibblette

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 10:42 AM

Sure it's painful to watch.

My only thing about the ones removing is I hope they don't lose their heads in many ways.

They're dealing with some very high emotional people.  Point of craziness actually.

But they have to do this.

They just have to.
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#19 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 10:53 AM

Zwolf666, on Sep 9 2005, 01:32 PM, said:

Well, it sucks, but I can understand it.  That area is a disease breeding ground, what with all the crap that's in the water.  Relief workers are already strained enough with what they have on their plate now... if they start having to deal with people getting sick - especially if it's an epidemic that they might spread - on top of what they've already got, then it'd be a real menace to public health.  The people who aren't wanting to leave aren't really being reasonable right now... it's not a safe place to be, and nobody wants them to die so they're putting rescue workers at risk by trying to keep getting food and water to them.  If they can get the place detoxified and cleaned up, then, by all means, let 'em go back.  Right now it's a swamp full of rotting bodies, sewage, spilled chemicals, and who knows what else.  They need to leave that place for their own good, and so relief workers will have a better chance to do what needs doing.  Sad that people have to be pulled away, but it's understandable.

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The description of the water+ that is being drained made me think that it might not be that different from cities of the nineteenth century after a big rainstorm. Certainly not safe by today's standards, but the city, when it was founded, was built in a swamp or close to it. If I lived in one of the less hard hit areas I think I'd want to try to stick it out if I could get in and out to get supplies, not rely on the Army bringing in stuff.
Cardie mentions that martial law was declared, and I am embarassed to say that I did not know that. I imagine that changes the legal situation significantly. It sounds that so far the law enforcement people have been handling the situation about as well as it could be handled.
Pax,
Julianus

#20 Julianus

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Posted 09 September 2005 - 10:59 AM

Cardie, on Sep 9 2005, 01:34 PM, said:

I'm not keen on the forcible removals, but as for the legalities, the city is under martial law, which changes things.  I see this more like an epidemic situation in which public officials have the right to quarantine people.  Only here it's the city that is so toxic that it has to be separated from its residents.

I, however, share your concerns re: bulldozing and real estate profiteering.  We have about 800 evacuees here in Columbia now, and most that have been interviewed don't want to return to NO.  They also were people who had seen little of the country beyond the city, and when told they were coming to Columbia SC, thought it was a rural place in the middle of nowhere, harrumph.  (Our population is nearly that of NO in fact..)  Our evacuees are being put up for thirty days in city hotels and then being found local housing.  Blue Cross booked an entire TraveLodge for the month, and it is allowing pets.

Cardie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that info. I hadn't heard that martial law had been declared. :blink: Actually, when all the looting was going on I wondered why they hadn't done that. I guess they had, but were directing resources to rescue rather than law enforcement.
Julianus



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