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#161 Norville

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 10:08 PM

Themis said:

I could buy the concept of some sort of creator, maybe - the big bang was caused by something. But it was not very intelligent design, imo, that created a planet with structural and weather conditions that cause earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, droughts, etc. etc.

I believe in a creating force, call it God if you wish (by whatever name you prefer). But I take your point re: the above, and there's a philosophy radio show which has an ad that includes the question, "If God's so smart, why don't knees work better?" ;) (Having seen people suffer with bad knees, and feeling my own knees going all cranky, I can relate.)

Themis said:

Nor do I consider it intelligent design that makes most female humans go through pain and agony every month for most of her life on the off chance she might conceive a baby whether or not she has been anywhere near a human male.

Ah, well, don't'cha know, it's the fate of women to be in pain because they're such sinners. :rolleyes: I don't admit to gender either way all that often online, because I wish to be accepted (or rejected, whatever) by my words, but I'll say this about that -- please, let me go through menopause and be done with it; let me be free of rampant hormones that serve me not at all (because I don't intend to reproduce). It's been hell, so go away now, thanks. ...arrrrrgh...
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#162 LoPs Bro

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:22 PM

Nonny, on Sep 28 2005, 07:18 AM, said:

Not strictly biblical, of course, but your comments would be most appreciated, LoPs Bro:

Times UK

Quote

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


His findings are flawed. Those are liberal media that he used. All you have to do is look at what has happened when the Ten Commandments,and God were taken out of the public schools. Crimes have increased ten fold because now people don't have anyone to answer to as they would if they felt, and realized, they had to answer to a higher power than man. Also, Britain is not a secular society as he suggests as it holds true, down deep, to its religious roots as does this country. The person who believes otherwise is most likely leaning to non-Christian religions. Also, Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one who truly freed man, from sin, from himself..
The other results that he is accusing religio0n of is a result of what is being taught in our public schools. Look at Sodom and Gomohorra, which have been located in the dead sea. The people were not religious but had sunk to such a low level because God was not in the picture. Archeologists speculate that their destructions are why the dead sea is poisonous.
The writer of the article shows no common sense in his conclusions, and he cannot grasp onto God because to do so you must do so in the realm of the spiritual. The scriptures, and God, cannot be grasped by the natural, non believing person as they will seem as foolishness to him.
The sources he used, like Gallop, it seems are opinion pollsters not statistics. If you use statistics which are cold hard facts then you will see that crime and immoral behavior have indeed increased at least ten-fold since the Ten Commandments and God were removed from our public schools.

Edited by LoPs Bro, 02 October 2005 - 03:42 PM.


#163 LoPs Bro

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:30 PM

Grandtheftcow, on Sep 27 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

All right LoPs Bro that’s move on to something different. How do you see the ideal family? What makes a good family?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.

#164 waterpanther

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 09:04 AM

Quote

His findings are flawed. Those are liberal media that he used.

What liberal media are you referring to?  Please be specific.

Quote

All you have to do is look at what has happened when the Ten Commandments,and God were taken out of the public schools. Crimes have increased ten fold because now people don't have anyone to answer to as they would if they felt, and realized, they had to answer to a higher power than man.

Can you show that there is a cause and effect pattern here?  Are you discounting increasing urbanization, the concentration of low-income populations in inner cities, the lack of decent educational opportunities in those areas, the drug trade?

Quote

Look at Sodom and Gomohorra, which have been located in the dead sea. The people were not religious but had sunk to such a low level because God was not in the picture. Archeologists speculate that their destructions are why the dead sea is poisonous.

Sources?  The last time I looked, the existence of Sodom and Gomorrha had yet to be proven and their identification was speculation at best.  Which archaeologists have speculated that their destruction caused the Dead Sea to be "poisonous?"  What do those archaeologists think about the Great Salt Lake?
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#165 Corwin

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 11:46 AM

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.


I've been staying out of this particular thread deliberately because of the topic involved.. But when I saw this......

I know that you are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't mean to be offensive, but:  what a positively archaic and medieval mindset.  Are you a Calvinist by chance?

Corwin
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#166 LoPs Bro

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 03:49 PM

waterpanther, on Oct 2 2005, 07:04 AM, said:

Quote

His findings are flawed. Those are liberal media that he used.

What liberal media are you referring to?  Please be specific.

Quote

All you have to do is look at what has happened when the Ten Commandments,and God were taken out of the public schools. Crimes have increased ten fold because now people don't have anyone to answer to as they would if they felt, and realized, they had to answer to a higher power than man.

Can you show that there is a cause and effect pattern here?  Are you discounting increasing urbanization, the concentration of low-income populations in inner cities, the lack of decent educational opportunities in those areas, the drug trade?

Quote

Look at Sodom and Gomohorra, which have been located in the dead sea. The people were not religious but had sunk to such a low level because God was not in the picture. Archeologists speculate that their destructions are why the dead sea is poisonous.

Sources?  The last time I looked, the existence of Sodom and Gomorrha had yet to be proven and their identification was speculation at best.  Which archaeologists have speculated that their destruction caused the Dead Sea to be "poisonous?"  What do those archaeologists think about the Great Salt Lake?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The mainline liberal media elite which too many take as fact.

Those questions about urbanization etc are getting away from the article. Also I edited my previous answer to be more specific. All of those are a result of God being taken out of society. Our laws were taken from the book of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. An excellent source to read to understand is 'Thru the Bible" by J. Vernon Mcgee, who is now with the Lord. He clarifies this very well.
I do not know what they say about the great salt lake.

#167 LoPs Bro

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 03:49 PM

Corwin, on Oct 2 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.


I've been staying out of this particular thread deliberately because of the topic involved.. But when I saw this......

I know that you are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't mean to be offensive, but:  what a positively archaic and medieval mindset.  Are you a Calvinist by chance?

Corwin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No I'm not a Calvinist.


#168 LoPs Bro

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 03:53 PM

Due to circumstances beyond my control I will be off the internet for awhile. Please keep the thread going. I started for all of you to have a place where you can calmly, and without rudeness, discuss the Bible and Christianity. LoP will still be on.
I'll be back!!


Thanks

#169 waterpanther

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 04:24 PM

Quote

The mainline liberal media elite which too many take as fact.

LOP's Bro, we're talking about a peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal.  The polls and other statistical sources mentioned in the article are not "news media," they are research data.  If you claim they're untrustworthy, then it's up to you to demonstrate how and why.

Quote

Those questions about urbanization etc are getting away from the article. Also I edited my previous answer to be more specific. All of those are a result of God being taken out of society.

But not away from your post, which fails to demonstrate any cause and effect relationship between removing sectarian religious materials from the public schools and an increase in crime.  

Quote

Our laws were taken from the book of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. An excellent source to read to understand is 'Thru the Bible" by J. Vernon Mcgee, who is now with the Lord. He clarifies this very well.

Our laws are derived largely from the English common law, with some influence of Roman law through the Code Napoleon.  Anyone who spells "Through" as "Thru" in the title of a book, thereby setting it up as an example to innocent children, deserves to be with The Other Guy.

Quote

I do not know what they say about the great salt lake.

Here's a clue: scientists, as opposed to propagandists,  say it has a lot of salt in it.  Just so the Dead Sea, which is situated in an area surrounded by huge formations of sodium carbonate has--lots of salts in it.  It has so much of the Na CO's in it, in fact, that the Egyptians called it the Natron Sea, natron being the stuff they used to dessicate mummies.  The  Dead Sea does not support life because the naturally occuring geology has a high sodium content, not because fire and brimstone (sulphur) rained down on it.  There's no vulcanism in the area, either, and fire and sulphur do not otherwise fall out of the sky.

Edited by waterpanther, 02 October 2005 - 05:17 PM.

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#170 Elara

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 08:58 PM

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:22 PM, said:

If you use statistics which are cold hard facts then you will see that crime and immoral behavior have indeed increased at least ten-fold since the Ten Commandments and God were removed from our public schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


~.~ So, as a non-Christian, I am automatically a bad person? My son is, as well?
When I was in school, from kindergarten on, we never had prayer. So, the removal of prayer from the schools seemed not a big deal.

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


~.~ There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin, but I will ask a question:
As the 'woman', I should have smiled and behaved myself, never complaining when my ex stayed at the bar, came home drunk, mentally abused me, threatened my life, etc... As the 'woman', I should have stayed with him and subjected my son to this so-called man so he could learn this behavior. Is that what your religion demands?

I am glad you find strength in your faith, but with every post you make I am reminded again and again why I left Christanity.
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#171 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 09:22 PM

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I knew that wasn't a fair question for him.

Although LoPs Bro said he wouldn’t be around there are parts of his post I’d like to discuss with the rest of you.

Ignoring the obviously outdated and foolish view of the wife being a pet. There’s another part of the post that as an atheist I fail to understand.

It’s this belief that only the acceptance of Jesus can lead to a happy life. That only faith can give you strength and determination. That without these things you are somehow missing something or that without him you are incomplete.

My initial reaction has always been that a person who thinks this way is in fact weak, has a low self esteem, and just can’t really handle the stresses of life every other person around you has to face. So I simply label them in the same category as pot smokers and alcoholics in that they are just losers who can’t look at life in a way in that satisfies them so they hold onto some fantasy that satisfies them.

But then I have to factor in that because they think Jesus is saving them, that they will find heaven after death and that they will live for eternity. In my view this does two things.

1. Since there is an afterlife death is not such a terrifying prospect to face

2. The belief in an afterlife and that Jesus will personally save you suggests that you are important and that you have a purpose.

Both in my view continue with the idea of religion feeding on the selfish views of those who want to believe that they are important.

In the end I’ve come to the conclusion that religion is for the weak. And that only the dumb or those raised on such beliefs would follow such beliefs.

Hmm that seems more like ranting than basic discussion, Oh well post submitted.

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#172 Rhys

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 09:52 PM

Elara, on Oct 2 2005, 09:58 PM, said:

As the 'woman', I should have smiled and behaved myself, never complaining when my ex stayed at the bar, came home drunk, mentally abused me, threatened my life, etc... As the 'woman', I should have stayed with him and subjected my son to this so-called man so he could learn this behavior. Is that what your religion demands?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, no.

People tend to overlook the second part of the equation:  "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church."  Remember, Christ willingly died for the Church...

Rhys
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#173 Baba

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 08:58 AM

Where in the Bible are lesbians mentioned?

#174 Nonny

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:33 AM

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 08:22 PM, said:

His findings are flawed. Those are liberal media that he used.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I expected no less of you.  :rolleyes:  

Thanks, wp.  I'm glad you were here to respond while I was gone.  You've done a magnificent job.  :)  

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#175 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 10:48 AM

Baba, on Oct 5 2005, 08:58 AM, said:

Where in the Bible are lesbians mentioned?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


As far as I know homosexuality between females is not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

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#176 Baba

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 11:47 AM

That means lipstick lesbian orgies are just fine in god's eyes.

#177 waterpanther

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:31 PM

Quote

Thanks, wp. I'm glad you were here to respond while I was gone. You've done a magnificent job. 

Thanks, Nonny.  My pleasure.   :)
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#178 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:38 PM

Lesbian behavior is a godsend.  A godsend, I tell you.
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#179 EChatty

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 09:46 AM

Romans 1:26-27

Quote

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Just to show it is mentioned

#180 QueenTiye

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 10:06 AM

waterpanther, on Oct 2 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

Can you show that there is a cause and effect pattern here?  Are you discounting increasing urbanization, the concentration of low-income populations in inner cities, the lack of decent educational opportunities in those areas, the drug trade?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Of course - all of these modern issues are the ones that religion tells us how to deal with.  I'm not talking about the bible specifically - although I know that's the topic here.  But religion in general.  There are some religions that include drug use.  The inclusion of drug use in the religion is a regulated usage - like medicine, as opposed to an unregulated pleasure-seeking/pain-reducing addiction.  There are religious obligations on the rich to take care of the poor, and there are behavioral rules that would ease the troubles of urbanization in every religion.

It seems to me, that the problem with the world is not religion, but humanity's ability to rationalize and pervert religion (or government, or business, or philosophy) to suit themselves.  

If anyone asks me why I believe in God, the truest answer is that I just do.  But if anyone asks me why I believe belief in God is necessary, my answer is that humanity has shown itself capable of perverting whatever system of rules it ever devises or is given, always, in the end, to humanity's own detriment.  BUT - belief in God, and the desire to BE Godlike can inspire us to subvert our selfish inclinations in favor of more principled ones, and thereby better ourselves and society.  For Godeskian's sake, I'll also point out that scriptures regularly insist that humanity is made in God's image - so being fully HUMAN is being Godlike.

QT

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