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#181 Spectacles

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:30 PM

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QT: It seems to me, that the problem with the world is not religion, but humanity's ability to rationalize and pervert religion (or government, or business, or philosophy) to suit themselves.

That pretty much says it all as far as I'm concerned. When I was fifteen, the enormous gulf between the teachings of Jesus and the "we're saved! we're special" attitudes of the members of my Southern Baptist church became painfully evident to me one day, and I've never again been able to embrace any kind of organized religion since that day. Fair or not, I always suspect that the very fact that a religion has been "organized" perverts it.

Don't get me wrong: I know people whose lives have been made much better by association with their churches and their religions, and I'd never knock that. But I've seen far too many "Christian witnesses" who divide the world into "us and them," saved and unsaved, liberal and conservative, red state and blue state. It's more about being right, being sanctified, being better than. And I can't respect that. I suspect that Jesus wouldn't have much use for it, either.
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#182 Godeskian

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:36 PM

QueenTiye, on Oct 12 2005, 04:06 PM, said:

BUT - belief in God, and the desire to BE Godlike can inspire us to subvert our selfish inclinations in favor of more principled ones, and thereby better ourselves and society.  For Godeskian's sake, I'll also point out that scriptures regularly insist that humanity is made in God's image - so being fully HUMAN is being Godlike.

:) Faith can better people, that I have no doubt about. It's religion I worry about. And I actually really liked that last bit QT

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#183 Nonny

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 09:11 PM

Elara, on Oct 2 2005, 05:58 PM, said:

LoPs Bro, on Oct 1 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

~.~ There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin, but I will ask a question:
As the 'woman', I should have smiled and behaved myself, never complaining when my ex stayed at the bar, came home drunk, mentally abused me, threatened my life, etc... As the 'woman', I should have stayed with him and subjected my son to this so-called man so he could learn this behavior. Is that what your religion demands?

I am glad you find strength in your faith, but with every post you make I am reminded again and again why I left Christanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

{{{{{{{{{{{Elara}}}}}}}}}}}

Yeah, me too.  

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#184 Norville

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 12:05 AM

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Love for each other and above all love for Jesus Christ. If they love Him then they can get through the difficult times easier with His help. They will follow His guidelines: the man is to be over the woman and house as Jesus is over the church, not as a tyrant but as a loving parent and spouse; the woman will reverence her husband as she is reverence by him in Christ, the children will learn and have a natural respect for both parents as they would Christ. Decisions will be mutual but with the father taking his spouse's advice but making the final decisions.

Okay... I don't mean to get offensive over this, but this is exactly why I've had problems with the human interpretation of these things. Please, tell me why women aren't all born as dumb, retarded animals, as beasts of burden (which is often how they're treated), if they're always supposed to stay subordinate to men. I've known some very bright, capable women and some very stupid men. Mind you, I'm hardly saying that *only* men can be drooling morons, since I've met many infuriating women who have no interest in learning anything and never have a clue what I'm talking about, and I've actually become quite misogynistic in recent years due to the way women have treated me.

What about women who can't find men to "be over" them? What about women who have to live single because they can't find a man who could care less?

I suppose I should've accepted the mental abuse of a guy I thought I loved at some point -- he was a paranoid freak, and decided to verbally attack me any time I tried to discuss writing with him. It was as if my attempting to express creativity, and thus possibly pull myself out of depression, was a threat to him. It's as if he briefly saw what I might be like if I weren't dragged down by depression, and decided he had to slap me back down. Well, I'm very sorry to say that I didn't "reverence" him (or "revere", I think is more grammatical); I got him out of my life.

Rhys said:

People tend to overlook the second part of the equation: "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church." Remember, Christ willingly died for the Church...

True, that is overlooked. What I think I'd like to see is both partners capable of respect for each other. Traditional Western marriage vows for the woman are "love, honor, and obey". Well, love and honor, yes, and perhaps if I actually respected my partner, I'd obey, as well, but why not some mutual respect? Why do women always have to apparently be the inferior ones?

I've stated this before, and will state it again -- my parents raised me to be a person, not a stereotype, to do whatever I thought I could do. They really never warned me of the misogyny of life. I think that I've come to truly have no use at all for being female.

Spectacles said:

Fair or not, I always suspect that the very fact that a religion has been "organized" perverts it.

I have no trust of "organized" religion -- probably because when humans get organized, they decide to disavow and persecute those who don't quite fit in. And hey, I've been an outcast all my life.

Spectacles said:

I've seen far too many "Christian witnesses" who divide the world into "us and them," saved and unsaved, liberal and conservative, red state and blue state. It's more about being right, being sanctified, being better than. And I can't respect that. I suspect that Jesus wouldn't have much use for it, either.

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#185 Jid

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:33 AM

Norville, on Oct 13 2005, 11:05 PM, said:

Okay... I don't mean to get offensive over this, but this is exactly why I've had problems with the human interpretation of these things. Please, tell me why women aren't all born as dumb, retarded animals, as beasts of burden (which is often how they're treated), if they're always supposed to stay subordinate to men.

Part of the problem of such verses on the role of women vs. men is the cultural context into which the early church was born.  In some parts of the world around the mediterranean, women were viewed as unworthy of education.  In Jewish custom, it was often considered inappropriate for a man to be seen conversing with a woman in public.

In light of this, some verses pertaining to the notion of a man being spiritual 'head' of the house seem more pragmatic, than misogynistic - the woman often lacked the education to read and interpret scripture according to custom.  So the husband was charged with teaching his wife and family that which he had in turn been taught.

Quote

True, that is overlooked. What I think I'd like to see is both partners capable of respect for each other. Traditional Western marriage vows for the woman are "love, honor, and obey". Well, love and honor, yes, and perhaps if I actually respected my partner, I'd obey, as well, but why not some mutual respect? Why do women always have to apparently be the inferior ones?

In my estimation, this is probably a twisting of Ephesians 5:22, in which wives are commanded to submit to our husbands. For some this has been twisted to mean the husband is the boss and the wife's job is to obey his every whim.  That this is about power, not self-sacrificing love.  In reality, both partners are called to serve each other.  The wife is called to serve her husband through submission, and the husband is called to serve his wife through sacrificial love.

And it gets even more complicated, especially when one considers the verse right before, Ephesians 5:21 says, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
cervisiam tene rem specta

#186 Jid

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:45 AM

Just to quickly add:

An interesting perspective on this same issue can be found here: http://www.worshipan...womensrole.html

A snippet:

Quote

Paul explains in Ephesians 5 that, "The husband is head of the wife, as Christ is head of the church." In English the word head refers to the physical head of one's body. In addition it also connotes and denotes being the boss, the one who is in charge of the agenda. There is a Greek word for this concept that is translated head in English. The word is arche. It is the one recognized by all who is charged with the responsibility of deciding. It means "head" in terms of leadership and also point of origin. It is used when referring to the beginning in the sense of the first or point of inception. We use this Greek word as a prefix in words such as archaeology, archetype and archives. It was also used for head in the sense of headwaters of a river. Arche was also used when denoting the 'first" in terms of importance. We still use it as a prefix in such words as archangel, archbishop, archenemy, and archduke. These all refer to leadership. It is used throughout the New Testament, including writings by Paul to designate the head or leader of a group of people such as "chief", "prince", and "ruler". If Paul believed that husbands should command their wives and rule over then, Paul could have used the word arche. He was well aware of the word arche when he wrote of how the husband was to be head of the wife, but he deliberately chose a different word. This is very consistent with Paul's teaching that the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her.


There is no such authoritarian meaning present in the word used here in the text. The Greek word actually used here by Paul was kephale. This also can mean the head of the body but not in the sense of boss. It was also used to mean "foremost" in terms of position (as a cornerstone in a foundation or capstone over a door. It was never used to mean leader, boss, chief or ruler. Kephale is also a military term. It means one who leads, but not in the sense of director, General or Captain or someone who orders the troops from a safe distance. It's meaning is quite the opposite. A kephale was the one who is out front in the sense of the soldiers who are at the front lines of battle or even out doing reconnaissance gathering information to bring back to the troops in order to make certain the mission can be accomplished. In these images there actually is no intention of the husband being the one who is in primary authority. The husband is called to the front lines in support and protection of his wife.
(emphasis mine)
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#187 quicksilver

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:33 AM

Corwin, on Oct 2 2005, 12:46 PM, said:

I've been staying out of this particular thread deliberately because of the topic involved.. But when I saw this......

I know that you are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't mean to be offensive, but:  what a positively archaic and medieval mindset.  Are you a Calvinist by chance?

Corwin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've read through much although not all of this thread. Seems to be lacking sufficient SOURCE quotes. What would you say to the following:

Romans 5:25 Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it;Romans 5-28-29 So ought men to love their wives as they do their own bodies.He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man  ever hated his own flesh;but nourish and cherish*th it, even as the Lord the church; for we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

That last verse has been used in wedding ceremonies for years with a"what God has joined together let no man tear asunder" thrown in for good measure.

When you read EVERYTHING that the source has to say about family relations you will find it not to be harsh at all. Would you find it offensive if I said that the hand has a different function than the liver ? That the eyes perform a different function than the ears ? Then why should it seem harsh to speak of different parts of the family having special primary functions ? If I lose my sight my hearing may compensate to some measure and degree but I'd rather not lose my sight. If my left thumb gets cut off I'll learn to function without it but it will be missed. A family is a living entity that needs every person in it to participate.

What many people suffer from is an incomplete understanding of the word of God on many subjects. Or rather as they have an incomplete understanding it is easy to hear the slanted view of one person or denominations VIEW of things and then condemn the source which is nothing like what those dolts  have been passing off as the Word. The cure for this is not a forum thread but a read through the bible with an open heart and mind comparing every spot where a particular subject comes up with every other spot where it comes up. This takes a lot of time and is not of much use unless you also begin the study with an informal chat with God. It could be something as simple as "I have no idea if your listening or even if you exist but I could use some help getting through this so if you are there and you are listening how about cutting me a break and opening my understanding" Not those words mind you. Those were MY words and by no means should you be a copycat :) Oh and no, you don't have to talk out loud to be heard.

#188 Rhea

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:58 AM

^Well said. Not only does every denomination interpret the Bible differently, but so do individuals. It's always best to read the source for yourself and find out what YOU believe rather than asking others to tell you what to believe (unless, of course, you're Catholic, in which case the Pope is the Big Cheese :p~).

Then there are the many translations (or in a number of cases, mistranslations).

I suspect that the only way to REALLY know what the Bible says would be to study the languages it was written in and read the original and put it in a cultural context (after all, the Bible wasn't written in a vacuum - there are many referents in the old testament to religions and practices which are long defunct).

Failing that, find a fairly accurate translation and read for yourself.
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#189 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 12:02 PM

Has the Answer Man abadoned us...shook the dust of EI off his sandals?
The Future...Unless Things Change.

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#190 Rhea

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 01:13 PM

CoyoteUgly, on Oct 19 2005, 09:02 AM, said:

Has the Answer Man abadoned us...shook the dust of EI off his sandals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nope, he's away for a week or something...look further up this page (I think).
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#191 Lover of Purple

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:28 PM

The Answer Man has no access for several weeks.

LoP

#192 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:37 PM

Oh, ok.
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#193 Lord Ravensburg

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 06:40 PM

Enkanowen, on Sep 23 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

So, I thought this to be a geniune thread until you said Darwin denounced his theories.

Agreed.

I await the day that this forum can have a discussion about the bible without either indoctrination on one hand or cynicism on the other polluting it.  And yes, I do believe that this thread is seeing a bit of both.

#194 LoPs Bro

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 11:26 PM

[i]You are of God little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

                                                          1John 4:4,6   :D

#195 LoPs Bro

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:20 PM

:wideeyed: Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.

The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away;
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgement,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.


                                                       Psalm 1

#196 Spectacles

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 08:20 AM

I ask this out of curiosity and with no disrespect whatsoever, LoP's brother. But I'm wondering, how do you define "ungodly"? Who are the ungodly? What are their beliefs, characteristics?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#197 Nonny

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:05 PM

View PostLoPs Bro, on Jul 6 2006, 08:20 PM, said:

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners....
I keep hearing that we're all sinners, so who is this guy and how can he avoid sinners if he is one too?  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#198 offworlder

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:53 PM

^ well two things on that; wasn't that one written before Christians? so, it's old Jewish; so, it was before the times when reverends were saying 'we are all sinners before we are saved' and all that, right?

and- it's really like a parable, just saying, don't follow the ungodly, 'follow' like 'do as they do'; don't do as the ungodly do, don't follow the ungodly; don't walk with the ungodly; and don't go the path of the sinners; now I don't really know why it says 'stand in the path' like stopping, like blocking... because I don't know that would really groove with the point being made; hey, it's some old old translation of an old old jewish text ... but it means don't follow the path of sinners, don't do as sinners and ungodly do.

:D
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#199 Nonny

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:07 PM

View Postoffworlder, on Jul 7 2006, 11:53 AM, said:

^ well two things on that; wasn't that one written before Christians? so, it's old Jewish; so, it was before the times when reverends were saying 'we are all sinners before we are saved' and all that, right?

and- it's really like a parable, just saying, don't follow the ungodly, 'follow' like 'do as they do'; don't do as the ungodly do, don't follow the ungodly; don't walk with the ungodly; and don't go the path of the sinners; now I don't really know why it says 'stand in the path' like stopping, like blocking... because I don't know that would really groove with the point being made; hey, it's some old old translation of an old old jewish text ... but it means don't follow the path of sinners, don't do as sinners and ungodly do.

:D
So standards of bible interpretation do shift to suit what the interpreter wants a particular verse to mean.   :eh:   It's not as if I hadn't already observed this.   :suspect:  

Nonny
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#200 offworlder

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:49 PM

bible interpretation do shift to suit what the interpreter wants  - wow, I didn't expect a comment so fast, I was away .. this depends on a lot of things, but you were raised Catholic so maybe they didn't go over 'all that', eh? ;)

I haven't gone back looked, but I believe that was from Psalms? anyway, Proverbs and Psalms are included in the new testaments given out by Gideons, because the Christians like the teaching aspect, you know, Christ was a teacher besides a savior, teach how to live life, teach how to be good to others, learning is a good thing and we need teachers >> but don't forget that Psalms and Proverbs are Jewish texts, they are from the old testament, they are from the God fearing, God following Jewish people .... now I've known Jewish people but we don't all sit around talking Jewish faith and scriptures, we talk sports, eat bagels, maybe some gossip, ya know; but I believe I've never heard Jews saying We're all sinners til we're saved ..... mainly because their messaih hasn't come yet! ;)

so different things in the bible, and my new form one, from the American counsel of theologians whoever whatever they were back about 1905, new American language and all that, from me mum, she got it as a schoolgirl in bible study in a Presyterian church, and my King James one also from her, she got it from another church, both have old testament in there too, but those are Jewish texts; you won't hear me saying like some of these evangelists how God personally caused these words precisely written and every word is sacred and must be followed to the letter and all are one and the same, and no mention of the Jews like they are to be some forgotten overlooked people and their faith just shoved under some carpet, right? I mean, when I hear some modern Christians reporting scripture from the old, they don't even mention the Jews, it's their script! those were their prophets. :D
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D



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