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#41 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:01 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 19 2005, 09:21 PM, said:

LoPs Bro, on Sep 18 2005, 11:28 PM, said:

Let the questions begin!!!!! :)



Bro

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Becareful of what you wish for.  ;)

First things first. Welcome to the OT.

Now for the questions.

In the beginning GOD made ADAM and EVE, who had two children. Cain killed Able. Then they had more children. Who it says then went to the villages and towns and started their own families.

There are two theories I have come across recently: One is that the sons and daughters themselves went out and built the cities because it said, for example, Cain went out into the land of Nod and built a city and called it Enoch. Then they inter-married at first because there was no one else and started their families.
The other is that God had created people in the past who had been wiped out who left the cities, but they still had to inter-marry to start the human race. We really don't know for sure because God, through the Olt Testament is really concerned with the lineage leading up to the Messiah: Jesus Christ.
I'll do some more checking from a couple of other sources to see if there is anything else and if there is I'll let you know.

So my question is: Where did these other people come from?

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#42 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:02 AM

RichieTyrant, on Sep 19 2005, 11:08 PM, said:

While I shall refrain from comment in this thread about the subject matter (for the good of the thread, believe me), let me just offer a welcome and hello, LoP's Bro...any member of the most excellent LoP's family is certainly a welcome addition to ours. :)

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Thanks, it's a privilege to be here.

#43 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:04 AM

Virgil Vox, on Sep 20 2005, 10:40 PM, said:

Quote

Well, of course, they have different viewpoints...there are over 36,000 different denominations of Christianity ya know....and even within one church congregation you'll find people who feel differently about different things.

Call me spiritually stupid, but 36,000!  :eek4: Wow. I never would have guessed.

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Sorry, I was running off of memory and mispoke.  It's 34,000 more or less.

From here: http://www.religious...rg/chr_divi.htm

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According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world today. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."

The Future...Unless Things Change.

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#44 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:14 AM

deMona, on Sep 19 2005, 11:10 PM, said:

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For something to be accepted as church doctrine it really must follow these criteria: 1) did Jesus teach it, 2) was it practiced in the Book of Acts and 3) Was it taught in the epistles?

I believe differently.  I believe in Scripture with the Tradition handed down orally by the Apostles, which is as biblical as anything.   where in scripture is the doctrine of sola scriptura preached?



and eep!  i neglected to welcome you, LoP's Bro!  WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!   :)

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Paul said in 2Timothy:3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
And Peter said in 2Peter 1:20,21: "Knowing this first, that no proohecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" these are just a couple.

#45 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:20 AM

Godeskian, on Sep 19 2005, 11:48 PM, said:

CoyoteUgly, on Sep 20 2005, 07:29 AM, said:

To say that people who were never exposed to the Gospel of Christ due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time are doomed to Hell

It does seem rather cold for a God who says he loves us all.

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Let me clarify. Man was created with a free will, otherwise we would be just a bunch or robots. God wanted us to have the freedom to choose or reject Him. Because He is a Holy God He cannot be joined to sin. When Jesus gave His life, that's right He gave it, no one took it from Him, He took upon Him all of our sins. Sin separates us from God, but when we are reconciled to Him through Jesus we can have that deep loving relationship with Him. So, when a perdom dies in that place of rejection of Jesus Christ they are saying they don't want to have anything to do with God, so He honors their choice.

#46 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:23 AM

GiGi, on Sep 20 2005, 12:06 AM, said:

Wow, Coyote, that was very well said.

I personally feel that the man Jesus was a personification of a spirit.  And being a spirit, mortal limitations do not exist for it.  That this spirit can touch through time and space and culture.

Kind of like when the Vorlon exposed itself on Babylon 5.  Each alien species saw that spirit as the avatar of their planet/species. 

So, in my mind  a spirit that omniscient could touch someone in the past, the present or the future if they were tuned in and open to such contact.

If love is the glue of the universe, how use could it be?  How else would a loving being treat the souls it oversees?

Hell to me is a human state of mind, cut off from this spirit.  Knowledge of which is known through the heart that has no verbal language, but has the language of love.  A closed heart truly is a heart in hell.

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That sounds like Gnosticism. Please read the Gospel of John for Jesus was a real person. Even Josephus, the Jewish historian, says that Jesus actually existed; the Jesus of the Bible.


#47 GiGi

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:30 AM

^ I have studied Gnosticism a little bit.  I never said that I didn't think Jesus was a real person.  I just believe that the spirit that existed within the man called Jesus isn't limited by the life and death of that body.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#48 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:33 AM

Una Salus Lillius, on Sep 20 2005, 01:00 AM, said:

First welcome Bro!  LOP is one of my favorite people.

I guess this isn't really a "Bible" question as a question about faith, Christianity, and a perception I have (maybe incorrectly) of Christianity being rather...I guess unforgiving is one word though maybe not precisely...

Anyway:  In your opinion, can one walk in and benefit from the grace of God (or whatever omnipentent being they  agree with) without being Christian?

Lil

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A Christian is one who has accepted the free gift of God of salvation through Jesus Christ, accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and asked Him to save them. One can benefit from the grace of God but cannot walk in it as Jesus said, "Without me ye can do nothing" To walk in His grace you need his guidance and Holy Spirit. The grace of God is getting what you don't deserve, God's unmerited favor.
What is unforgiving about Christianity is not Christianity itself but what people do with it. Christians are to be forgiving as God has forgiven them.

#49 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:38 AM

CoyoteUgly, on Sep 20 2005, 08:07 AM, said:

First, glad to help you with some self-discovery.  That's always a good thing. ;)

QueenTiye, on Sep 20 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

There's something that irks me about the phrasing of this paragraph... but nothing I can point to directly.  Instead, I'll just say what it makes me feel like pointing out - which is that Bro has a view of the scripture that differs from John Wesley's.  There isn't anything wrong with that...

QT

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Well, of course, they have different viewpoints...there are over 36,000 different denominations of Christianity ya know....and even within one church congregation you'll find people who feel differently about different things.

However, the viewpoint of "everyone else is going to Hell" theologically is too simplistic to be accurate.  Scripture time and time again assigns Hell for those who refuse to do God's will.

That's God's Word for you. It really is simplistic. The problem is that man's finite mind has difficulty understanding and grasping the infinite. That is why Jesus said to approach Him as a child. It takes real faith to accept His Word as truth. But man has to always try to complicate thimgs. Also, Denomination are a man made concept that has helped millions of people but in God's eyes there are no such things, only if you have accepted or rejected His Son Jesus.

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#50 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:40 AM

MuseZack, on Sep 20 2005, 08:20 AM, said:

There was an interesting poll of Americans' religious beliefs a while back.  Here's one of the most interesting questions asked:

Can a good person who isn't of your religious faith go to heaven or attain salvation, or not?" Results were:
Group           Yes, they can attain heaven No, they cannot attain heaven
Evangelical Protestants: 68%                                  22%
Other Protestants        83%                                    10%
Roman Catholics        91%                                     3%
Non-Christians          73%                                     3%
American population 79%                                    12%



It's fascinating that even a large majority of evangelical protestants take a rather expansive view of who gets into heaven.

That is because there are a growing number of liberal preachers who are turning their backs on the Word of God and influencing their flocks.
The folks at religioustolerance.org have a really cool site that gives answers of a lot of different Christian denominations to these questions.  Their FAQ on the different ideas of who gets saved and how is at http://www.religious...rg/salvatio.htm .

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#51 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:42 AM

Cyncie, on Sep 20 2005, 09:07 AM, said:

Welcome LoPsBro!  I'm frankly glad to see a religious thread that's not just another excuse to bash those who believe. I hope this leads to a genuine exchange of viewpoints.

Excellent summary of Wesleyan doctrine, CU. As a good Wesleyan Methodist myself, I have to say that this is precisely my own view of God and His relationship with Humankind.

Denominations have been debating the literal meaning of scriptures for thousands of years. Everyone's doctrine can be supported by proof texts, and you can go around in circles on this forever. Rather than getting bound up in literalism, I have chosen to take a "big picture" approach, myself. God created us for a relationship with Him. That relationship was broken by humanity's own choice. Since then, God has been in the business of reconciling humankind to Himself. The completion of that reconciliation is found in the person of Jesus, who embodied God's Spirit and made the atonement necessary to repair the breech.

The drive to save everyone from Hell seems to emphasize the wrong thing, to me.  "Turn or burn" theology stresses judgment as God's motivating force. I don't think that's accurate. The scripture emphasizes God's love and says He desires that no one be condemned.  Jesus himself emphasized the relational motivation of God when he said "No one comes to the Father except by me." That idea of God as loving parent was a radical one for that time... one that revealed, to me, the true nature and motivation of God.

How God deals with those who have not been given the opportunity to accept the fullness of His revelation in Jesus is, I believe, known only to God. Paul says we are held accountable to the knowlege of God that we've been given, regardless.

Quote

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  (Romans 1:20)

But, if God's motivation for all He has done is love of His creation, then I feel I can rest assured that His response to those who have not heard the fullness of the truth will be a loving one.

Those who actively reject Jesus, however,  are also rejecting the relationship to God He embodies. They continue to be separated from God by their own choice, and whatever comes from that, comes.

Just a little addendum. I think much of the world's rejection of the message of Christ has less to do with the message itself, and more to do with the clumsy approach of the messengers. God Himself gives us the freedom to choose or reject Him. He does not try to force Himself on us, so we who represent Him cannot and should not force Him on others. We are called to be God's witnesses, not his attorneys.

~Cyn

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You're right there. Christianity isn't a legalistic religion but a deep loving relationship with a loving God.

#52 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:44 AM

GiGi, on Sep 20 2005, 10:30 PM, said:

^ I have studied Gnosticism a little bit.  I never said that I didn't think Jesus was a real person.  I just believe that the spirit that existed within the man called Jesus isn't limited by the life and death of that body.

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Thanks for clarifying.

#53 deMona

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:45 AM

LoPs Bro, on Sep 21 2005, 12:20 AM, said:

So, when a perdom dies in that place of rejection of Jesus Christ they are saying they don't want to have anything to do with God, so He honors their choice.

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yes, but we are talking about ppl who have never had the opportunity to reject Christ.  there are ppl in this world who have never heard the holy name of Jesus but who have lived their lives in such a way that one may assume, were they given the opportunity, they would have accepted Him.   so it is possible they may be saved in good faith.


LoPs Bro, on Sep 21 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

Paul said in 2Timothy:3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
And Peter said in 2Peter 1:20,21: "Knowing this first, that no proohecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" these are just a couple.

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the quotes you've given speak to the Divine origins of Scripture, of which there can be no question, but not of Scripture as the SOLE source of Christian doctrine.
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'Ni!' at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.

#54 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:46 AM

LoPs Bro, on Sep 20 2005, 10:40 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Sep 20 2005, 08:20 AM, said:

There was an interesting poll of Americans' religious beliefs a while back.  Here's one of the most interesting questions asked:

Can a good person who isn't of your religious faith go to heaven or attain salvation, or not?" Results were:
Group           Yes, they can attain heaven No, they cannot attain heaven
Evangelical Protestants: 68%                                  22%
Other Protestants        83%                                    10%
Roman Catholics        91%                                     3%
Non-Christians          73%                                     3%
American population 79%                                    12%



It's fascinating that even a large majority of evangelical protestants take a rather expansive view of who gets into heaven.

That is because there are a growing number of liberal preachers who are turning their backs on the Word of God and influencing their flocks.
The folks at religioustolerance.org have a really cool site that gives answers of a lot of different Christian denominations to these questions.  Their FAQ on the different ideas of who gets saved and how is at http://www.religious...rg/salvatio.htm .

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Sorry but I did not post that link to religious tolerance.org.

#55 LoPs Bro

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 12:51 AM

deMona, on Sep 20 2005, 10:45 PM, said:

LoPs Bro, on Sep 21 2005, 12:20 AM, said:

So, when a perdom dies in that place of rejection of Jesus Christ they are saying they don't want to have anything to do with God, so He honors their choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


yes, but we are talking about ppl who have never had the opportunity to reject Christ.  there are ppl in this world who have never heard the holy name of Jesus but who have lived their lives in such a way that one may assume, were they given the opportunity, they would have accepted Him.   so it is possible they may be saved in good faith.


LoPs Bro, on Sep 21 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

Paul said in 2Timothy:3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
And Peter said in 2Peter 1:20,21: "Knowing this first, that no proohecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" these are just a couple.

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the quotes you've given speak to the Divine origins of Scripture, of which there can be no question, but not of Scripture as the SOLE source of Christian doctrine.

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The acceptable criteria for something to become church doctrine is: Did Jesus teach it, was it practiced within the early church in the book of Acts, and was it taught in the epistles. This is the best criteria because it keeps doctrine scripturally sound. Many groups have twisted the scriptures to fit their doctrine insteat of making their doctrine fit scripture which has lead to much confusion and God is not the god of cunfusion but of order.

#56 Godeskian

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:37 AM

LoPs Bro, on Sep 21 2005, 06:20 AM, said:

Let me clarify. Man was created with a free will, otherwise we would be just a bunch or robots.

Predestination and automation aren't quite synonymous, but I take your point.

Quote

God wanted us to have the freedom to choose or reject Him.
Why? He seems to take it very personally when people turn away from him, condeming them to an eternity of torment in hell and all that. Seems like he really doesn't want us to have free will at all when one has to do things his way to get a cookie.

Quote

He took upon Him all of our sins.
I'm not a religious person myself, but what gives him the right to forgive my sins to the people I comitted them to? What gives him the right to forgive those who've sinned me in my place? I decide whom I forgive for what they've done to me, not someone else.

Quote

So, when a perdom dies in that place of rejection of Jesus Christ they are saying they don't want to have anything to do with God, so He honors their choice.

And again we get back to the lack of viable alternative. From what you've said, and correct me if i've interpreted this wrong, God has created two post-life states. Heaven and Hell. He has then said that one is a very bad place, and one is a very good place. He has also said you can only enter the good place if you do right by him (in this case, accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour). He also says he wants us to have free will.

Well, it isn't really free if there are no viable alternatives. It's a single choice with penalty for failure, because no one wants to suffer. it's like asking if i'd rather be kicked in the head or given a bowl of icecream. It's not much of a choice.

Quote

also nature testifies of His existance:
I'm curious what you mean by this, as you've said it several times without clarification of what you mean.

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#57 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:37 AM

Okay, here's a serious question I actually want answered because of genuine curiosity.

Quote

When Jesus gave His life, that's right He gave it, no one took it from Him, He took upon Him all of our sins.

I never really understood that phrase. Did he knew beforehand he was accepting our sins? Did he somehow absorb our sins into his own being or is this is a metaphoric phrase? If not, does that make all the people in the world *at that particular time* free if sin? And if so, because we are still sinning now, by theory do we not need another Jesus Christ to absorb our sins? Come to think of it, why did he even need to absorb our sins in the first place, considering that, according to him, all you need to do is ask forgivness and be forgiven?

I suppose the idea behind the phrase is that Jesus dealt with the wrongful persecution and death of himself at the time...maybe? And since he might as well go all the way, he took all of our sins at the time up till his death? I suppose it's possible....but did that somehow dissolve everyone else of responsability at the time and they went to heaven because they were sinless?

#58 Natasha Bennett

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:39 AM

One other different thought, but I wanted it in a seperate post. This wasn't actually from me but from a friend:

Judas
we watched a very interesting biography on Judas last night. the bottom
line, was he a good friend of the big J and part of the plan because Jesus
needed someone he coudl trust to make his fate come true( he had already
said he would die there, and still went to jerusalem) OR was judas a money
hungery backstabbing devil ridden jerk who betrayed the savior for his own
gain( and why then did he try and give back the money)
the other thing was about his suicide. apparently in Jewish soldier
tradition when the leader died, his second in command was to take his own
life and follow him into paridise. was Judas doing this or was he wracked
with guilt?

Thoughts?

#59 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:41 AM

Three points:

1. Flavius Josephus did not, in fact, mention Jesus Christ in his Antiquities of the Jews.  We know this because copies of the writings that were not within the realm of influence by the Catholic church don't mention Christ, whereas all others that were within the reach of the RC church do mention him.  I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves what happened there.

2. The Bible is simplistic to those who chose to take a simplistic approach.  Yes, we should approach Christ as children...Paul said it best "My righteousness is as filthy rags" (actually in the original Greek, Paul said that his righteousness was sh*t, but you get the drift).

However, Scripture admonishes us to grow in spirit...milk is for babies and all that.  As we grow in spirit, we discover that Scripture has many layers of meaning with multiple concepts stacked atop one another.  That's why Bible study is a lifelong process.

An example of what I'm talking about: Person A can read verse X, pray to God for the wisdom to understand what it means, and come to a conclusion.  Person B can also read verse X, pray to God for the wisdom to understand what it means, and come to a different conclusion.  Is someone wrong?  Maybe.  Or maybe verse X can mean different things to different people according to their spiritual needs.  The Psalms are an excellent example of this.

3. Finally, because of Peter's faith in Christ, Christ gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven...loosed on earth, loosed in Heaven... and all that.  This implies authority.  Whether you choose to go the Catholic route and say that the apostolic succession of Popes after Peter have spiritual authority, or that apostolic authority extends to all leaders of all denominations is open to debate.  I'm personally cool with either one.  Either way, church authority has a great deal of say-so over Scriptural interpretation.  The major drawback to fragmented movements like Evangelistic Protestantism is the lack of a clearinghouse for interpretation.  Scripture, I'm sorry to say, is so piecemeal, open to interpretation and plain ol' vague in many areas to such a level that a literal interpretation is not only foolhardy but impossible.

An example of the foolhardiness of literal interpretation follows: the Levitical injunction against homosexual behavior can be interpreted from the hebrew as "You will not lie in bed with another man as a woman.  This is an abomination to the Lord."  It can also be interpreted as "You will not lie in a woman's bed with another man.  This is an abomination to the Lord."  Two different meanings since hebrew is so vague.  You simply cannot have a literal interpretation, thus we run with the tradtional Jewish take on it...which is the first one.

Incidentally, in case anyone is starting to wonder what's going on: while in in my senior year in college, I was ordained a UMC minister.  After graduation I immediately attended Perkins School of Theology at SMU for one and one-half years before I came to the revelation that the ministry wasn't for me.  It's not for me because I don't suffer fools gladly, and you kinda sorta have to be nice to everyone if you're a minister.  I dropped out, resigned my ordination and joined the Army and became a Ranger, which I made my career until I got hurt.  I have an extensive educational background in early to modern church history, the development of Christian theology, and labored under some of the finest theological professors I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

I realize that some here who cannot conceive of me walking into a church without either the church or me bursting into flames might find this tidbit completely shocking, but there you go.

Edited by CoyoteUgly, 21 September 2005 - 01:44 AM.

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#60 gsmonks

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 02:43 AM

Yes, but think of the warmth you'll provide as you blacken and turn crispy.

Problem with all this is that the Bible is a book of fairy tales. There is no God, there was no baby Jesus, and the only "apostle" who really lived (maybe) was Paul, and in real life he was not an apostle.

What's telling about the historical Paul is that he didn't refer to a "Jesus" or a "Christ" as an entity, but rather as a vision he had, poor deluded tool that he was.

The Bible isn't a good source of history, either. The dates are off, the historical occurrences are so much revisionist drivel and wishful thinking, the locations are close but no cigar, and certain Biblical place-names, like the Christ-myth, didn't exist at the alleged time of the alleged events.

Religion is intellectual suicide, prayer is the last refuge of scoundrels, and faith is just another word for "wishful thinking".

However, if God did really exist, he would be a rapist for bonking Mary without her consent, an adulterer for putting it to a married woman, a deadbeat-dad for not raising or looking after his own kid or paying child-support, a murderer for "punishing the innocent along with the guilty", and, well, sounds pretty human, and therefore a crock concocted by people chicken of dying and going, not to Heaven, but to eternal non-existence.

Edited by gsmonks, 21 September 2005 - 02:47 AM.

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