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Police Plan Tribunal For Officers Missing During

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#1 Natolii

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 11:20 AM

http://www.turnto10....956/detail.html

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NEW ORLEANS -- Nearly 250 police officers - roughly 15 percent of the force - could face a special tribunal because they left their posts without permission during Hurricane Katrina and the storm's chaotic aftermath, the police chief said.

Police Superintendent Eddie Compass plans to assemble a tribunal of four of his assistant chiefs to hear each case and sort the outright deserters from those with a legitimate reason for not showing up for work. In all, 249 officers were found to have been absent without permission, he said in an interview published Tuesday in The Times-Picayune.

"We have a penalty schedule for each violation, and when that process takes place, individuals will have the right to appeal the decisions made by the bureau chiefs," Compass said adding that "the final decision and recommendation will be by me as superintendent of police."

Mayor Ray Nagin said the city attorney's office will review Compass' plan to ensure that it falls within civil service regulations. Compass did not say how many of the 249 officers are asking to return. The department has about 1,700 officers.

Lt. David Benelli, president of the Police Association of New Orleans, the union for rank-and-file officers, said true deserters should be fired.

Good deal... Punish those motivated by personal fear, and give some lenacy to those that had families in the line of fire.
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#2 Elara

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 11:24 AM

Natolii, on Sep 27 2005, 11:20 AM, said:

Good deal... Punish those motivated by personal fear, and give some lenacy to those that had families in the line of fire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#3 Natolii

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:00 PM

They need to be buried as heroes.
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#4 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:13 PM

A tribunal? WTF! These officers are NOT in the military. There is no such thing as awol for them. They are employees of the city, or state, but they do have the RIGHT to up and quit if they want to.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#5 G1223

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:19 PM

Yes and the city has the right to sue them for reckless endangerment or file criminal charges. After all they were suppose to help get people out. And as you keep jumping on FEMA for not being there and how they left those folks to die. I like to introduce you to the very folks who left those senior citizens to die as well as maybe a few other people. Because they are very much the first folks to have to deal with people.
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#6 Natolii

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:20 PM

Tribunal may be too strong a word. They do have disciplinary committees though.

Chalk that one up to the Media as none of the quotes have that word in them.

Point is, several of these officers deserted their posts in a time of crisis. They are the first responders that people like us rely on in time of need. If we cannot rely on these men and women, then we are in deep trouble.

They may not be military, but they agreed to that duty the moment they put on that badge.

As incredulous as it seems, I'm in agreement with G1223 in this regard.

Edited by Natolii, 27 September 2005 - 12:21 PM.

"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#7 Elara

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:32 PM

Yes, it was their job, but until you are actually standing out there trying to face such a monster, you have no idea whether you have it in you to stay.
Someone that has no fear of being shot, may have an overwhelming fear of drowning. FEMA screwed up before drowning became an actual factor.
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#8 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:36 PM

G1223, on Sep 27 2005, 12:19 PM, said:

Yes and the city has the right to sue them for reckless endangerment or file criminal charges. After all they were suppose to help get people out. And as you keep jumping on FEMA for not being there and how they left those folks to die. I like to introduce you to the very folks who left those senior citizens to die as well as maybe a few other people. Because they are very much the first folks to have to deal with people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm not saying what they did was cool...But a tribunal implies that they didn't have the right to just up and quit. Which they do have that right to do. Was it the right thing to do? Of course not. Should they be docked pay? Most certainly. Should those wanting to come back be allowed? Hell NO! They've already proven themselves unreliable.

But they DO have the RIGHT to just up and quit.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#9 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 12:37 PM

Elara, on Sep 27 2005, 12:32 PM, said:

FEMA screwed up before drowning became an actual factor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Agreed. And FEMA has yet to answer the question: How come the media and the coast guard were able to get down there, after the hurricane hit, and they couldn't?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#10 G1223

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 01:28 PM

Ah the Police. To Serve and Protect unless it's dangerous.

Yeah do not go out save the woman's life. Sure she's being raped and beaten ,but it could be dangerous to go and do your job. simply ignore it and head over to Krispy Kreame for a few yeast and cup of coffee.

The police have a duty to uphold the law and see to the safety of people. Or is that only when they do not have to face danger. After all the other cops stayed and some died or is that they were stupid.
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#11 Natolii

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 01:28 PM

There have been times I've been the first one on the scene in a medical emergency. I had a woman pass out on me and I had my headset on, talking to 911 while making sure this woman was still breathing, still had a heart beat...

You don't know how you are goign to react until it happens to you. But when a 7yr old child can react with more presence of mind and save the lives of his family, then there is something wrong with this picture.

I'm also not saying that this absolves FEMA any responsibility. Hardly that. However, there does have to be accountability for those that just walked away. I have more respect for someone that went to his boss and said "I can't handle this," as opposed to those that just vanished.
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#12 G1223

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 01:31 PM

Hell the staff that walked away from the nursing home and left all those folks to die are facing charges. And they just walked away.  Why one and not the other?
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#13 emsparks

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 02:27 PM

Get this ---

Tuesday, September 27, 2005, CNN announced: New Orleans Police superintendent Compass is retiring, after a short period of transition..
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#14 Anastashia

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 03:21 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 27 2005, 01:36 PM, said:

G1223, on Sep 27 2005, 12:19 PM, said:

Yes and the city has the right to sue them for reckless endangerment or file criminal charges. After all they were suppose to help get people out. And as you keep jumping on FEMA for not being there and how they left those folks to die. I like to introduce you to the very folks who left those senior citizens to die as well as maybe a few other people. Because they are very much the first folks to have to deal with people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm not saying what they did was cool...But a tribunal implies that they didn't have the right to just up and quit. Which they do have that right to do. Was it the right thing to do? Of course not. Should they be docked pay? Most certainly. Should those wanting to come back be allowed? Hell NO! They've already proven themselves unreliable.

But they DO have the RIGHT to just up and quit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


However LotS, one of the things supposedly to be looked at is was there a legitimate reason for some of those asking to come back to be gone. That's a valid reason for an investigation in my mind. Not to mention the probable requirement under their collective bargaining agreement.
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#15 Lin731

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 03:38 PM

Quote

Yes and the city has the right to sue them for reckless endangerment or file criminal charges. After all they were suppose to help get people out. And as you keep jumping on FEMA for not being there and how they left those folks to die. I like to introduce you to the very folks who left those senior citizens to die as well as maybe a few other people. Because they are very much the first folks to have to deal with people.


Do we all get the same "right" when it regards FEMA and Brownie? Oh wait, I guess not since that incompetent boob just got a "consulting" job with FEMA. Personally, I think we have a right as a country to file criminal charges against those cops (who DIDN'T have a valid reason for not showing up) and the Department Heads at FEMA as well who failed to do their job.

Now where the cops are concerned, I don't know if they can be tried for reckless endangerment for the reasons LoTs mentioned...They have the right to up and quit (whether I think it's wrong or not) which I DO think it was wrong btw...Now if they want to stay on the force, then I'd think they'd better have a darned good reason for not being there or they should flat out be fired, end of story.
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#16 Kimmer

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 07:18 PM

Natolii, on Sep 27 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

Good deal... Punish those motivated by personal fear, and give some lenacy to those that had families in the line of fire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 27 2005, 10:13 AM, said:

A tribunal? WTF! These officers are NOT in the military. There is no such thing as awol for them. They are employees of the city, or state, but they do have the RIGHT to up and quit if they want to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 27 2005, 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not saying what they did was cool...But a tribunal implies that they didn't have the right to just up and quit. Which they do have that right to do. Was it the right thing to do? Of course not. Should they be docked pay? Most certainly. Should those wanting to come back be allowed? Hell NO! They've already proven themselves unreliable.

But they DO have the RIGHT to just up and quit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


A few points of clarification, if I may. Police, Fire, Correctional Officers, and all that hold PEACE OFFICER status are para-military organizations. Thus they are bound by very similar rules as military personnel. If the chief says “You will work 24/7”, they are expected to work 24/7. In the case of emergencies, they are expected to serve knowing full well the dangers they may face and the sacrifices that may be expected of them. They also understand that their duty and obligation is usually placed before personal concerns—and that sometimes means not being able to see to the safety of their own family. They know this and their families know this as well.

They do have the right to “up and quit”, but that means that they turn in their badge and notify their supervisor of this decision. Many of the officers who went AWOL (and yes, that is exactly what it is) never notified anyone. They violated the oath they took to protect and defend, they violated the rules and regs they serve under, they violated state and local laws—and they knew this when they went AWOL.

These men and woman usually serve under the “Peace Officer Standards and Training” (POST), and that states that violations of this nature are handled by a tribunal. The Police Superintendent is not only correct in his actions, he is bound by POST, the oath he took when he became Police Superintendent, and by the state and local laws he serves under.

I believe that this is the “Oath of Office” sworn to by these men and women:

Quote

"I,________ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution and laws of the United States and the constitution and laws of this state and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as ___________, according to the best of my ability and understanding, so help me God."

These men and women also adopt “The Law Enforcement Code of Ethics”. They read and study this during their academny, and they repeat this when they are sworn in as a peace officer. It reads as follows:

Quote


"As a law enforcement officer, my fundamental duty is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property; to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violation or disorder, and to respect the Constitutional rights of all men to liberty, equality, and justice."

"I will keep my private life unsullied as an example to all; maintain courageous calm in the face of danger, scorn, or ridicule; develop self-restraint; and be constantly mindful of the welfare of others. Honest in thought and deed in both my personal and official life, I will be exemplary in obeying the laws of the land and the regulations of my department."

"Whatever I see or hear of a confidential nature or whatever is confided in me in my official capacity will be kept ever secret unless revelation is necessary in the performance of my duty."

"I will never act officiously or permit personal feelings, prejudices, animosities, or friendships to influence my decisions. With no compromise for crime and with relentless prosecution of criminals, I will enforce the law courteously and appropriately without fear or favor, malice or ill will, never employing unnecessary force or violence and never accepting gratuities."

"I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of the public faith, and I accept it as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of public service. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideas, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession – LAW ENFORCEMENT."

On a personal note, while I understand the fear some of these men/women felt, and their desire to protect their families, unless they notified their immediate supervisor of their decision to quit, then they were in violation of the law. At the very least I find their actions selfish and irresponsible.

#17 Natolii

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:06 PM

And each officer is to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

I know one left due to a broken leg.
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#18 G1223

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:12 PM

Well that sounds like a an acceptable reason to leave.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#19 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 09:46 PM

HookandCrook, on Sep 27 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

A few points of clarification, if I may. Police, Fire, Correctional Officers, and all that hold PEACE OFFICER status are para-military organizations. Thus they are bound by very similar rules as military personnel. If the chief says “You will work 24/7”, they are expected to work 24/7. In the case of emergencies, they are expected to serve knowing full well the dangers they may face and the sacrifices that may be expected of them. They also understand that their duty and obligation is usually placed before personal concerns—and that sometimes means not being able to see to the safety of their own family. They know this and their families know this as well.

They do have the right to “up and quit”, but that means that they turn in their badge and notify their supervisor of this decision. Many of the officers who went AWOL (and yes, that is exactly what it is) never notified anyone. They violated the oath they took to protect and defend, they violated the rules and regs they serve under, they violated state and local laws—and they knew this when they went AWOL.

I wasn't aware of them being a para-military organization. I also thought they had notified their superior, just as they uped and left. Still, I see it no different as somebody just walking off their job without telling their boss. Nobody says they have to KEEP THIS JOB. If they want to walk off, that's their right. But if they walked off, under no circumstances whatsoever, should they be allowed back.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#20 Natolii

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 06:20 AM

That, LotS is what this council is going to determine, one case at a time. Though from what I've been reading, many of the rank and file officers that did remain wouldn't want the deserters back either way.


LORD of the SWORD, on Sep 27 2005, 10:46 PM, said:

HookandCrook, on Sep 27 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

A few points of clarification, if I may. Police, Fire, Correctional Officers, and all that hold PEACE OFFICER status are para-military organizations. Thus they are bound by very similar rules as military personnel. If the chief says “You will work 24/7”, they are expected to work 24/7. In the case of emergencies, they are expected to serve knowing full well the dangers they may face and the sacrifices that may be expected of them. They also understand that their duty and obligation is usually placed before personal concerns—and that sometimes means not being able to see to the safety of their own family. They know this and their families know this as well.

They do have the right to “up and quit”, but that means that they turn in their badge and notify their supervisor of this decision. Many of the officers who went AWOL (and yes, that is exactly what it is) never notified anyone. They violated the oath they took to protect and defend, they violated the rules and regs they serve under, they violated state and local laws—and they knew this when they went AWOL.

I wasn't aware of them being a para-military organization. I also thought they had notified their superior, just as they uped and left. Still, I see it no different as somebody just walking off their job without telling their boss. Nobody says they have to KEEP THIS JOB. If they want to walk off, that's their right. But if they walked off, under no circumstances whatsoever, should they be allowed back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that don’t even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)



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