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Riots In Toledo

Ohio Toledo Riots 2005

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#21 Lin731

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:49 AM

I find it reallllllllllllllly amusing to hear some of you folks defending skinheads. "Free speech, free speech, free speech". What exactly do you think the intent of the Nazi march through a black neighborhood was designed to do? If anything, you ought to be celebrating on their behalf as they got exactly what they were hoping for...a violent response. They marched through a black neighborhood in hopes of inciting a violent response so I have a reallllllllllly hard time shedding tears for them when they got the response their march was designed to provoke.

BTW...G, no one is promoting ripping them out of their beds and killing them (that's more of Nazi MO don't you think)? Let's be honest here, these inbred morons would still be conducting hangings, beatings and cross burnings on a regular basis if they had the free rein to do so, so pardon my lack of sympathy for them. Their thugs and racists and I have no symapthy for them when they seek to incite violence and get the intended response.
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#22 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

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I find it reallllllllllllllly amusing to hear some of you folks defending skinheads. "Free speech, free speech, free speech".

Yes free speech, something that every US citizen is entitled to.

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What exactly do you think the intent of the Nazi march through a black neighborhood was designed to do? If anything, you ought to be celebrating on their behalf as they got exactly what they were hoping for...a violent response. They marched through a black neighborhood in hopes of inciting a violent response so I have a reallllllllllly hard time shedding tears for them when they got the response their march was designed to provoke.

Yes this Nazi group proved their point quite nicely I would say.

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#23 G1223

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

No but saying that it's alright to attack someone for political beliefs means next is race followed by religion.

The honest thing is to say that violence no matter who is carrying it out is wrong. That once you start you carry it to it's fullest extent.

Want the next march to be a bunch of them carrying say guns to protect themselves.  Then they open up and we have people killed.

Welcome to Chicago rules if you bring a knife he will bring a gun. If he send you to the hospitalyou respond by sending his to the moruge.


Do I like the KKK no  but I have to accept their having a lawful right to protest and a right to assemble. Otherwise what is to keep them from preventing me from those rights.
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#24 Zwolf

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:08 AM

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So shall we call it hunting season and go kill them in their homes and not call it murder. If it's ok to do it while they are in the streets why not their homes.

***** If people keep that crap in their own homes, then it's their own business.    When they come into your neighborhood trying to incite violence, then violence is what they should find, and more of it than they can handle.  It damn sure kept some Confederate Hammerskins out of a town near me.  A few of 'em showed up, got a real bad reaction  :devil: , and packed up and limped the hell out before their little movement could take root.

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Hell we could kick in the doors of people's home claiming to be on a Nazi hunt and if we do not like the people call them nazi and kill them.

******** That's not what I'm reccomending.  What I'm reccomending is, if neo-Nazis show up in your town, trying to harm people, then they get their heads kicked in.  If they want to stay in their homes and just be all "Nazi" among themselves, then fine.  I don't like 'em, but if they're not trying to hurt anybody then they won't get hurt.  When they start invading people's neighborhoods, though, then I have no frickin' sympathy for 'em, and it's boot for boot.

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Are you white?


****** I don't know.  I've got some Hungarian blood, and I'm not sure if the Nazis count that as "white" or not.  They're pretty shaky on what they consider white.  I don't particularly give a damn if I'm "white" or not.

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I mean I do not know of any hispanic nazi so now we have excuses to attack and kill white folks. throw down a few armbands and you can have the perfect excuse.

***** This isn't even making particular sense...

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We live in the age of tolerance Zwolf666. That means you have to tolerate the racist views of this Nazi group, just as you have to tolerate the gay parades promoting their lifestyle, the Black marches promoting racism, anti-abortionist rallies promoting their sometimes extremist views, and feminist bake sales promoting lesbianism.

**** I only have to tolerate what I'm willing to tolerate.   I'll tolerate a lot, but racist hate groups, nah-ah, fuggum.  The other groups you mention tend not to try to incite violence.  Nazi groups invading your neighborhood, however, have one goal in mind.  I've been in the punk scene for years and have dealt with 'em before.   You don't want those guys getting a foothold.  If they invade, then they should meet with resistance.  But, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Super-Tolerant.  If people are peaceful about their demonstrations, then fine... but the very thing the Nazis represent is incapable of being peaceful.  If any of those other groups were representing genocide, then I wouldn't treat them kindly, either.   As bad as groups such as Farrakhan's are, they don't have the history that groups like W.A.R. or the Klan have.  If they start trying to enact pogroms, though, then beat them down, too.

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Just because you don’t like them doesn’t remove their right to free speech.

******* That's true.  But free speech doesn't mean you get to say what you want and nobody gets to react to it.  You take what you want and then you pay for it.  If people come into my town and want to set up some kind of white power trip, then if I care about my town, I should let them know they're not welcome.  Being all "tolerant" is too high a price to pay with these jerks.  Weeding a garden is being "intolerant" of weeds... but you're not going to have a good crop otherwise.


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One word Jew.

******* That's actually helping make my point for me.  If the Jews had resisted the Nazis more in the beginning, then they might have stopped the Holocaust.  But they didn't know that the movement would grow to the size and strength which it did, and by then it was too late.  Now we know what Nazis are capable of, and that's why it's dangerous to tolerate them in the guise of being all "civilized."  As the Jews say, "Never again."   Nazis will just take advantage of being tolerated, so, sorry, I don't much give a damn about a Nazi's "free speech."  Free speech is an American concept: America fought against the Nazis.  If somebody wants to side with the Nazis, then they're not caring too much about free-speech concepts in the first place.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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#25 Nonprofit

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:11 AM

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Lin731 Posted Today, 10:49 AM
  I find it reallllllllllllllly amusing to hear some of you folks defending skinheads. "Free speech, free speech, free speech". What exactly do you think the intent of the Nazi march through a black neighborhood was designed to do? If anything, you ought to be celebrating on their behalf as they got exactly what they were hoping for...a violent response. They marched through a black neighborhood in hopes of inciting a violent response so I have a reallllllllllly hard time shedding tears for them when they got the response their march was designed to provoke.



If this was a known fact (bolden) as it appears you are stating it was.  The folks in the neighborhood should have not taken the bait,  remained in their houses and off the streets.

The blacks could have been smarter than a small bunch of Nazi marchers by not responding in a violent manner.

RuReddy

#26 darthsikle

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:11 AM

First it was the nazi's, then it was the commies, then.........

you get the point
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#27 Eskaminzim

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:16 AM

Feminist bake sales promote lesbianism?

Dang!  I gotta get me to some of those!!!

#28 Zwolf

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:20 AM

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No but saying that it's alright to attack someone for political beliefs means next is race followed by religion.

******* I'm not advocating that we go hunt down everybody who posts on the Stormfront website.  But if they want to march into someone's neighborhood and try to provoke them, then why let them do it?  If they can be shouted out relatively peacefully, then fine.  But if some Nazi skin ends up choking on his own blood in the gutter, I'm not gonna be sympathetic.  They instigated it.

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The honest thing is to say that violence no matter who is carrying it out is wrong. That once you start you carry it to it's fullest extent.

****** Like I said, I've dealt with these scumbags before.  They aren't going to let you be non-violent.  They'll take advantage of being tolerated, and they'll keep pushing until they either provoke you so they can "defend themselves," or they'll just take over your town.  And if you let them gain a foothold there'll be 100 of them instead of 3 or 4.  Tolerance for Nazis is like tolerance for drug-pushers.  What are you willing to have go on in your backyard?

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Want the next march to be a bunch of them carrying say guns to protect themselves. Then they open up and we have people killed.

******* If they show up with guns, then the cops are more likely to crack down on them.  But if it's Chicago rules, then okay... it's still better than having a town full of Nazis.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
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Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
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#29 G1223

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:23 AM

No wolf when the neo nazi shows up and marches then group of them should be standing alone no jeering crowds no rocks no threats simply ignored.

If they attack someone they need to be arrested.  If they activly incite violence(Just standing there does not count)then we have laws against such acts and he should be arrested.

The KKK marched  because of a white woman who was raped by local gangs.
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#30 Zwolf

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:29 AM

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No wolf when the neo nazi shows up and marches then group of them should be standing alone no jeering crowds no rocks no threats simply ignored.

****** If that works, then fine.  There's not only one way to address a problem.   But a lot of these groups will only take advantage of that.  It's giving them the proverbial inch.

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If they attack someone they need to be arrested. If they activly incite violence(Just standing there does not count)then we have laws against such acts and he should be arrested.

****** I'm fine with that, too.  If the cops do the job legally, then so much the better.  

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The KKK marched because of a white woman who was raped by local gangs.

******* Hopefully the police caught the people who did it.  And, if it were up to me, there'd be a death penalty for rape, and that'd be the end of those gangbangers.  Like I said, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Tolerance.  I'm tolerant of a lot of stuff I don't like, but there's a breaking point for everything, a point where tolerance becomes a detriment instead of a good thing.  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
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"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
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#31 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:38 AM

Zwolf666 said:

**** I only have to tolerate what I'm willing to tolerate. I'll tolerate a lot, but racist hate groups, nah-ah, fuggum. The other groups you mention tend not to try to incite violence. Nazi groups invading your neighborhood, however, have one goal in mind. I've been in the punk scene for years and have dealt with 'em before. You don't want those guys getting a foothold. If they invade, then they should meet with resistance. But, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Super-Tolerant. If people are peaceful about their demonstrations, then fine... but the very thing the Nazis represent is incapable of being peaceful. If any of those other groups were representing genocide, then I wouldn't treat them kindly, either. As bad as groups such as Farrakhan's are, they don't have the history that groups like W.A.R. or the Klan have. If they start trying to enact pogroms, though, then beat them down, too.

I only have to tolerate what I'm willing to tolerate.

That says it all there. Your debating from point of view rather than common sense and logic.

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******* That's true. But free speech doesn't mean you get to say what you want and nobody gets to react to it. You take what you want and then you pay for it. If people come into my town and want to set up some kind of white power trip, then if I care about my town, I should let them know they're not welcome. Being all "tolerant" is too high a price to pay with these jerks. Weeding a garden is being "intolerant" of weeds... but you're not going to have a good crop otherwise.

You’re trying to change the meaning of “freedom of speech” in order to fit your views. In reality though freedom of speech laws apply to everyone and despite your best wishes authorities will not use a double standard just because you don’t like them.

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******* That's actually helping make my point for me. If the Jews had resisted the Nazis more in the beginning, then they might have stopped the Holocaust. But they didn't know that the movement would grow to the size and strength which it did, and by then it was too late. Now we know what Nazis are capable of, and that's why it's dangerous to tolerate them in the guise of being all "civilized." As the Jews say, "Never again." Nazis will just take advantage of being tolerated, so, sorry, I don't much give a damn about a Nazi's "free speech." Free speech is an American concept: America fought against the Nazis. If somebody wants to side with the Nazis, then they're not caring too much about free-speech concepts in the first place.

No Zwolf it doesn’t help you despite your active imagination here.

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Used against the right people, violence is golden.

Which can be applied to anyone.

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#32 Lin731

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:54 AM

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Yes this Nazi group proved their point quite nicely I would say.

Yes they did, they proved quite well that the people they've terrorised and abused over the centuries aren't going to put up with their crap anymore. I seem to recall the GOPers claiming that speech carries consequences, so I'd think many of them would agree that when you go into a town with the intention of inciting violence with your "speech" and that violence insues, you're dealing with the "consequences of free speech" Personally, if I were from that neighborhood, I think I'd have assembled a march of blacks through their neighborhoods...Ain't "free speech" grand?

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If this was a known fact (bolden) as it appears you are stating it was. The folks in the neighborhood should have not taken the bait, remained in their houses and off the streets.

The blacks could have been smarter than a small bunch of Nazi marchers by not responding in a violent manner.

Yes it was a known fact that it was a perdominantly black neighborhood:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9707507/

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Much of the anger boiled over because people were upset that city leaders were willing to allow the supremacists to walk through the neighborhood and shout insults, residents and authorities said.

March took place in mostly black neighborhood
Navarre said the riots escalated because members of the National Socialist Movement took their protest to the neighborhood, which is predominantly black, instead of a neutral place. “If this march had occurred in downtown Toledo, we wouldn’t have had the unrest,” he said.

The neo-Nazi group, known as “America’s Nazi Party,” said they came to the city because of a dispute between neighbors, one white and the other black.

Yeah the Nazi's weren't looking to incite trouble were they? As to the idea that the blacks in the neighborhood should have "stayed in their houses and off the streets" sorry but if I were black, I'd let MY displeasure be known as well. When thugs and racists go unchallenged, they grow. Would I have rioted to make that point...NO but I understand the anger at these people being allowed to parade their hatred through the streets of these people's neighborhood and shout insults at the locals.

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If they attack someone they need to be arrested. If they activly incite violence(Just standing there does not count)then we have laws against such acts and he should be arrested. (bolding mine)

Clearly inciting was their intent (see snippet above).

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The KKK marched because of a white woman who was raped by local gangs.

Do they march through the streets of white neighborhoods where white rapists have raped white women or just where blacks are involved? One the one hand you say "we have laws to deal with such acts" when referring to blacks rioting over Nazi's in their neighborhood. Yet you then turn around and "appear" to be justifying the Nazi march on the basis of a gang rape of a white woman. Don't we have laws to deal with that as well?

Edited by Lin731, 18 October 2005 - 11:58 AM.

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#33 Zwolf

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:54 AM

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I only have to tolerate what I'm willing to tolerate.

That says it all there. Your debating from point of view rather than common sense and logic.

****** On a pure common-sense and logic level, "violence is never the answer."  But not everyone will agree with that, and therefore we have wars, because we're not willing to be overrun by aggressors.  Yep, that's point of view, but I'm not Ghandi.   Tell ya what: if Nazis come to your town, then you just go be all tolerant and logical and respect their free speech, and see what that gets you.  Maybe you'll do fine, as long as you're willing to go along with whatever they're willing to allow you.  But if you wanted to date a girl outside your race, or have friends of a different color, or anything else that "offends" them, then see how they reward your nice logical point-of-view-free tolerance.  Maybe you could just reaaaaason with 'em. :)  Reason and logic are great if the other guy's willing to meet you halfway.  These dudes aren't.  They're every bit as reasonable as Osama Bin Ladin.


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You’re trying to change the meaning of “freedom of speech” in order to fit your views. In reality though freedom of speech laws apply to everyone and despite your best wishes authorities will not use a double standard just because you don’t like them.

******* There's a difference between freedom of speech and goose-stepping into somebody's neighborhood to try to intimidate them.  Like I say, you'll get whatever you're willing to tolerate.  I'm not willing to stomach as much of that.  If it makes me "wrong" or "anti-free-speech" or whatever else, then I'm willing to live with that a lot quicker than I'm willing to live with Tom Metzger's trained puppies pushing people around.  If you've got different parameters, then fine - I hope they work out for you.  But they don't for me.


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Which can be applied to anyone.

**** Life just ain't fair, is it?

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#34 scherzo

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 12:24 PM

If the KKK get it in their otherwise empty heads to begin marching through Black neighborhoods, I consider it perfectly acceptable behavior...to shoot them full of holes.(although chainsaws are a reasonable alternative in a pinch)  Sure they have free speech. They also have the freedom to look for trouble...find the trouble they're looking for...and reap the consequences. I have no problem at all with killing people who need killing. I'm also pretty comfortable deciding who those people are...come to think of it. Scary isn't it.

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#35 QueenTiye

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:43 PM

No matter how much I don't like the neo-Nazis, I'm sorry - I don't support the riots.  The mayor of the city said that the violence was incited by gangs, and that it was known ahead of time that there'd be trouble.  To me - that's that.  The march happened, and should have happened peacefully.  If a black man or woman is killed in a white neighborhood, would it be ok for blacks - to organize a march through that neighborhood in protest of police unfairness, or whatever?

I don't feel that the nazi group proved any points.  Gangs are violent, and are targetted by the police already.  The insult being paid to the black community is the assumption that we are all responsible for gang violence, when we are mostly the victims of it - and more often than not, tend to feel that the police are in cahouts with the gangs and drug dealers to prey on our community.  The nazi group just took advantage of a vulnerable community to glorify their own ends.

QT

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#36 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:01 PM

ZWolf, it's a hard lesson to learn that this is the US where the Constitution rules.  The 1st Amendment applies to everyone or it applies to no one...so long as they're peacefully assembling.

If you have evidence that the NSM deliberately intended to start a riot, I would suggest you present it to the Toledo police.  I'm sure they'd be interested.
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#37 Zwolf

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:27 PM

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ZWolf, it's a hard lesson to learn that this is the US where the Constitution rules. The 1st Amendment applies to everyone or it applies to no one...so long as they're peacefully assembling.

****** Can people flying swastikas peacefully assemble in the middle of a black neighborhood?  Screw those guy's first ammendment rights when that is how they use 'em... let's just jump right into the second in their case and give 'em a problem keeping rain out of their necks.  I'm all frickin' broken up about their right to "peacefully assemble" in the middle of people they're trying to intimidate and harass.  

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If you have evidence that the NSM deliberately intended to start a riot, I would suggest you present it to the Toledo police. I'm sure they'd be interested.

****** How 'bout walking into a black neighborhood and chanting "white power"?  What'd they expect?  What else could they have been hoping to instigate, an inpromptu Phish concert?  No matter how generous anybody wants to be with benefit of the doubt, it's not exactly a stretch to say that these guys were hoping to bend a few heads.  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#38 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:29 PM

Zwolf666, on Oct 18 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

Quote

ZWolf, it's a hard lesson to learn that this is the US where the Constitution rules. The 1st Amendment applies to everyone or it applies to no one...so long as they're peacefully assembling.

****** Can people flying swastikas peacefully assemble in the middle of a black neighborhood?  Screw those guy's first ammendment rights when that is how they use 'em... let's just jump right into the second in their case and give 'em a problem keeping rain out of their necks.  I'm all frickin' broken up about their right to "peacefully assemble" in the middle of people they're trying to intimidate and harass.  

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If you have evidence that the NSM deliberately intended to start a riot, I would suggest you present it to the Toledo police. I'm sure they'd be interested.

****** How 'bout walking into a black neighborhood and chanting "white power"?  What'd they expect?  What else could they have been hoping to instigate, an inpromptu Phish concert?  No matter how generous anybody wants to be with benefit of the doubt, it's not exactly a stretch to say that these guys were hoping to bend a few heads.  

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Would all this be anything like "Gay Pride" parades?
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#39 Zaugur Anasazi

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:35 PM

There is only one way to deal with fascism ,with education.Improving the educational system and making it more accessible to all ,will beat the fanatics.Indeed,freedom of speech is a political right inside a democracy.But provoking isn't.
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#40 Zwolf

Zwolf
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  • 3,683 posts

Posted 18 October 2005 - 03:42 PM

Quote

Would all this be anything like "Gay Pride" parades?

******* Not at all.  Gays aren't Nazis.  Thousands of Americans didn't die in a war to fight gays who invaded other countries, and gays didn't march people into ovens.   Gays don't have a history of instigating violence against people and trying to commit genocide.   Their agenda is seeking acceptance, not "auslander raus."

There's a difference between just being annoying and confrontational - which gay pride parades often can be - and trying to threaten and intimidate people.   Any protest group is going to tick someone else off, no matter who they are... but these white power groups come complete with a history of murder.   Nazis are not deserving of the benefit of the doubt, because their agenda is clear.  They mean harm.  Gay pride parades can be obnoxious, but there's no threat.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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