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Riots In Toledo

Ohio Toledo Riots 2005

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#301 Lin731

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:42 AM

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Now, do you have something to back up that claim, or are you just content to make that claim and then walk away patting yourself on the back for your PC-ness, like so many do?

You first HowlingMad, you've made many claims that you refuse to support.

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Attack the man's points, not the man. And to head you off on that one, "What points?! HAW HAW!" or "He has no points!" doesn't address his points.

In all honesty he DOESN'T have any points to attack really, just alot of hateful rhetoric, revised history and worship of the worst scumbag in history. So YOU tell ME HowlingMad, what points did he make in his little hatefest? Other than "I'm better than them thar (fill in the blanks) are". As I said earlier (while attacking his delusional history of the white race).

1. The man has ZERO understanding of his history or anyone elses. Everything he posted about our great victories of the past was BS.

2. To Idolize scum like Hitler, Vlad the impaler etc...tells me all I need to know about the man's mindset (coupled with his vile references to other ethnic groups and races). Tell me Howling Mad, what would Commander dipstick have done if that had been a black woman being assaulted by a white man? Would he have rushed to HER defense? THAT is what I find disgusting about him. Everything in his tiny, hateful world revolves around race, religion and ethnicity...Defending a PERSON against an attacker is a good thing but when you equate everything to race, it's NOT a good thing because it leaves one feeling that had the situation been reversed, he'd not done the same thing.

3. His pathetic whining about discrimination against white...AKA...I can't get MY foot in the door anymore based simply on BEING white. What a hypocrite. It was well and swell when he was on the receiving end of "special rights" but God forbid we attempt to address past discrimination against blacks.

4. "Defending our own"...Sorry but I don't base who is worthy or unworthy of defending based on their skin pigment. I base that on who is right and who is wrong.

5. The dreck that passes for a "peptalk" to the other skinheads on his website makes his hate quite clear and I have NO use for people that blindly hate.

6. Their little paramilitary activities strikes me as homegrown terrorism and I tend to find that "isms" are never a good thing and the Nazi movement is nothing but "isms" (terrorism, racism, Fascism, elitism).

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What that really shows is exactly the anti-white racism I've been talking about. You applaud one group's attacks and decry the other's defenses. That's practically as racist as it gets, which makes those who do it no different from one another. I'm no different from Linz or QueenTiye in this regard -- we've all been racists in this thread; I'm just throwing my lot in with the underdog.

Stop revising other peoples posts, it may work for the little skinheads (where none of them appear bright enough to know or challenge his delusional accounts of history) but not here. I've never once applauded anyones attack (nor has anyone else that I'm aware of) and it's been said umpteen times here. I have no use for ignorant thugs...PERIOD. I have no use for the Nazi's hoping to incite the locals and I have no use for the thugs that used it as an excuse to riot and loot...Throw them in JAIL, that's why we have laws. What I WON'T do is buy into the "Noble defenders of the white race crap" or excuse their organised and longstanding hatreds of anyone who isn't white.

Edited by Lin731, 26 October 2005 - 10:44 AM.

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#302 Zwolf

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:15 AM

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Are you saying people shouldn't be afraid of people like "Commander Jeff"?

******* Did I say any such thing?  Please don't put words in my mouth.  People should have a healthy dose of distrust - if not fear - for any racial extremist, be they "Commander Jeff" or "Theater Guy."  This fear should not become so irrational that it drives them to become extremists themselves, however, and start fearing entire races.  Whites should not fear all blacks because of "Theater Guy," and blacks should not fear all whites because of "Commander Jeff."  It'll be the members of the races who are not like those individuals that will do the most to foster mutual respect and understanding and will marginalize the extremists.  Trying to justify hating a whole race because "Theater Guy" is a jerk is irrational and undermines ones credibility.


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That was the claim I want you to back up.

It's like you walking in on your brother and random stranger pointing guns at each other, and berating your brother for not putting his gun down. Sorry, but when it comes to the racial viewpoint, "Commander Jeff" is my brother and "Theater Boy" is the stranger, and as far as I know, if "Theater Boy" gets through "Commander Jeff", I'm next. So you'll pardon me if I'm not rooting for "Theater Boy".

******* So who's rooting for Theater Guy?  You're working on the premise that Commander Jeff is your brother from the beginning.  You're basing that on a very shallow criteria - that you have similar pigmentation.  I don't claim brotherhood to anybody I don't know.  You and I are both white, but we ain't brothers.  

I wouldn't be rooting for either one of them.  And if I was next, then I'd deal with it myself.   Commander Jeff's just helping Theater Guy justify his case.  That's not help, and there's no reason to cheer him on.  And, since I don't agree with Commander Jeff's ideology, he'd probably hate me as much as any black guy, anyway.  Nazis aren't fighting for the white race - they're fighting for white racists.   Anyone who doesn't agree with them they consider "race traitors"... so, nope, no brotherhood there.

Cheers,

Zwolf
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I'm never talking to you again
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I'm never talking to you
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#303 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:22 PM

I think pigmentation is as good a groundlevel basis for equality as anything.
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#304 Spectacles

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:54 PM

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HM: And as long as there are people like Theater Boy out there, it's a good thing there are guys like "Commander Jeff" out there, too. Would that neither existed, but I'd rather there are crazy people who look like me set to fend off the crazy people who want me dead because of what I look like.

Well, I sure as heck didn't need a "Commander Jeff" to deal with Theatre Guy. I dealt with him pretty effectively on my own. In fact, had "Commander Jeff" shown up to defend me, I probably would have dog-cussed him as well. I have as much use for him as I do Theatre Guy.


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HM: Think of these people like nuclear weapons -- volatile, destructive, to some degree unpredictable -- with real nukes, the only thing that kept Russia from launching on America, or vice versa, was the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction. Same thing with racial extremists. As long as one nation has 'em, it would be sheer, nigh-on-suicidal idiocy for the other to get rid of theirs. It's all well and good to push for them all going away, but that isn't going to happen and you'd have to bear a deathwish for your own to insist that only your side should disarm.


Somehow, I can't imagine that Theatre Guy thought twice about being a jerk because he was afraid that "Commander Jeff" was going to swoop down like a White Racist Spiderman and save us from him.

In fact, it's far more likely that Theatre Guy had an attitude because he or his friends had had encounters with racist jerks who helped develop that chip on his shoulder.

I, however, didn't do anything to put it there, nor did my friend, so I wasn't going to sit still and listen to his crap. At one point I recall yelling at him that I didn't understand what his problem was, that my friend was merely trying to save some seats and his color didn't have a damned thing to do with her smiling and politelysaying "I'm sorry; these seats are saved" before he shoved her. I informed him that he was being an idiot, that I wasn't afraid of him, and that he had a problem. All of that, of course, was peppered with much profanity. Not only did he and his girlfriend shut up after that, but they made a point to avoid eye contact with me on the street after the movie was over.

Theatre Guy was a nut. He's not representative of most black people. "Commander Jeff" is, also, a nut--one who is not representative of most white people. They are two hands clapping, each justifying the other's nuttiness.

My point, which you seem reluctant to acknowledge, is that if a middle-aged, five-foot-four woman can defend herself and her friends when threatened--without wishing for a nazi to come along and "rescue" her--then that pretty much demonstrates that nazis are unnecessary except in their own paranoid, either/or, stereotype-based fantasies.


Another point you keep dodging is this:  thinking that nazis are just puffed-up losers doesn't mean that one must therefore ignore black racism. Yeah, it's there. And when I bump into it, I have the same rage I do when I bump into white racism. It seems to be very, very hard for you to conceive that one may simultaneously hate black racism and white racism (and any other flavor of racism). I hate all forms of it because it's stupid; it depends on thinking in stereotypes, weird revisionist histories, and paranoia. I've got no use for any of that stuff. Life is hard enough without having to run into jackasses who hate you and/or think that you hate them simply because of the color of your skin. I'd rather not humor them.
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#305 waterpanther

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 08:51 PM

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And how many live under segregation and Jim Crow laws right now? That's the point you seem desperate to avoid. Black people are not some 500 year old life form with a collective mind, hate to break it to ya.

How many live in segregated conditions?  Oh, a few million, probably.  Even though the Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, the effects linger.  If they didn't, there would be no "Commander Jeffs."


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You've proven in this very post I quoted that it isn't. Don't you hate it when your posts prove my point?

If it ever happens, I'll let you know how I feel about it.  :)
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#306 Howling Mad

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:32 AM

waterpanther, on Oct 26 2005, 06:51 PM, said:

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And how many live under segregation and Jim Crow laws right now? That's the point you seem desperate to avoid. Black people are not some 500 year old life form with a collective mind, hate to break it to ya.

How many live in segregated conditions?  Oh, a few million, probably.  Even though the Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, the effects linger.  If they didn't, there would be no "Commander Jeffs."

Without legal enforcement, their segregation is voluntary, and they have no one to bitch to about it but themselves. No points for you there.

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You've proven in this very post I quoted that it isn't. Don't you hate it when your posts prove my point?

If it ever happens, I'll let you know how I feel about it.  :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This sadly just confirms how unusually perceptive you aren't. ;)

#307 QueenTiye

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 01:00 PM

Howling Mad, on Oct 25 2005, 05:46 PM, said:

Can we agree that one form of "unfair competition" would be Affirmative Action? Which is one manifestation of the disenfranchisement of white people, by the way.

I can agree that affirmative action can be seen as "unfair competition."  I cannot agree that it represents disenfranchisement of white people.  

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And by "a climate where one's superiority is used to bash others", would we be talking about a media which, in the mainstream, misreports the outcomes of news stories to cast white racists in the worst possible light while giving the soft touch to crimes committed by non-whites at the same event?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And yet you said that this:

QueenTiye, on Oct 25 2005, 11:32 AM, said:

There is only one reason - fear.  In this country - white extremists, and the more moderate types who tolerated them, caused terrible things to happen.  The KKK isn't a figment of our collective imaginations, and the lynchings, bombings, and other terror tactics they practiced in support of white supremacy isn't a figment of our collective imagination.

Was a red herring?

Media misrepresentation, if it is that, is based entirely on this concept of fear.  It is not a red herring - its a fact of history.

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I did miss this, thanks for bringing it back to my attention. Unlike "Black History" subjects, white history is not taught in schools from a racial viewpoint.

Have you ever considered the fact that NO history should be taught from a "racial" viewpoint?  Black history is history.  It ought to be included in the history that is taught, period. The fact that "Black history" persists in being a segregated topic is not a compliment to black people, even if many think it is.  

"Black" historians turn up information like the stuff posted by gsmonks in another thread, about St. George, the so-called "Black Mozart."  Whereas - his story ought to be a part of history in the first place.  So long as that is relegated to "Black history" there will persist in being a distortion of perception - black people persistently feeling like our history is being deliberately "whitewashed" and white people persistently wondering what it is that black folks are going on and on about - seeing as they just aren't aware of much of the history that black people make a point of learning.  

Pull all the facts together and present them as a whole.  Let's make it OUR history.  The two races have worked together to build great things, fought against one another in horrific wars, and otherwise been involved with each other for like... ever.  

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See my previous post -- non-white racist organizations such as NAACP

An organization founded by blacks and whites (mostly whites)?  I don't think so.

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and MALDEF are perfectly acceptable,

I don't know what they are all about, so I have to refrain from commentary.

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whereas similar organizations for whites (such as NAAWP) are demonized.

If the NAAWP was a benevolent organization doing all of the things they say in their first few bulletpoints, I'd probably have no problem with them.  But the NAAWP also says:

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*High, illegitimate, minority birthrates - if allowed to continue - will one day make them the majority and give them political control of our country - just as they now control major cities.

That's an inherently hateful thing to say.  What does the NAAWP propose to do about illegitimate minority birthrates?  And - if all things are equal - and we aren't seeking any unfair advantage or disadvantage of anyone - so what if non-white people born and raised in THIS country eventually become the majority?  

Why isn't the concern how these newly born citizens are going to be socialized, since their population growth trends suggest that they are headed toward majority status? (False, btw.  If added together as a aggregate, minorities in some place outnumber whites - but minorities are not an aggregate whole, and do not always share the same interests.  Also FALSE - minorities do not control major cities.  The election of a black or hispanic or asian or jewish mayor does not make that ethnic group in "control" of the city.)  Why isn't the concern ensuring that the citizens born here have a vested interest in all that this country is and should be - and ample education to ensure that their increased numbers do NOT drag down the nation?

Why are they being written off?

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Affirmative Action gives non-whites an unfair advantage over whites while imbuing racist stereotypes of ineptitude on their "beneficiaries" just as surely as any skinhead of klansman could be said to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It gives non-whites NO advantage whatsoever.  An institution that is mandated to have a population of 25 percent minorities still has 75% of whites.  There are very few incidents where there is an actual head to head clash that forces a favoring of the non-white.

And for all of that - I agree with you.  I don't think that affirmative action as it has been practiced does anything good.  I agree with Condi Rice's formulation - race can be a factor in considering the diversity of the population, but there should not be a forced quota that forces a university to turn down a better student for a poorer one or even an equal student for another equal student.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 27 October 2005 - 01:01 PM.

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#308 Howling Mad

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 08:38 PM

[quote name='QueenTiye' date='Oct 27 2005, 11:00 AM'][quote name='Howling Mad' date='Oct 25 2005, 05:46 PM']Can we agree that one form of "unfair competition" would be Affirmative Action? Which is one manifestation of the disenfranchisement of white people, by the way.[/quote]

I can agree that affirmative action can be seen as "unfair competition."  I cannot agree that it represents disenfranchisement of white people.[/quote]

How can it not be disenfranchisement? When blacks suspect that the political process and government institutions discriminate against them, they are said to be disenfranchised; so how can it be that whites are not subjected to precisely the same disenfranchisement when they are also subjected to discrimination under the political process and by government institutions, which is just what affirmative action does?  

[quote][quote]And by "a climate where one's superiority is used to bash others", would we be talking about a media which, in the mainstream, misreports the outcomes of news stories to cast white racists in the worst possible light while giving the soft touch to crimes committed by non-whites at the same event?
[right]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right][/quote]

And yet you said that this:

[quote name='QueenTiye' date='Oct 25 2005, 11:32 AM']There is only one reason - fear.  In this country - white extremists, and the more moderate types who tolerated them, caused terrible things to happen.  The KKK isn't a figment of our collective imaginations, and the lynchings, bombings, and other terror tactics they practiced in support of white supremacy isn't a figment of our collective imagination.[/quote]

Was a red herring?

Media misrepresentation, if it is that, is based entirely on this concept of fear.  It is not a red herring - its a fact of history.[/quote]

It was a red herring as related to the subject we were then discussing. It ceases to be one only if you're suggesting it as a new focus of the conversation.

[quote][quote]I did miss this, thanks for bringing it back to my attention. Unlike "Black History" subjects, white history is not taught in schools from a racial viewpoint.[/quote]

Have you ever considered the fact that NO history should be taught from a "racial" viewpoint?  Black history is history.  It ought to be included in the history that is taught, period. The fact that "Black history" persists in being a segregated topic is not a compliment to black people, even if many think it is.[/quote]

I agree 100%. Either no one's history should be given special focus as a seperate subject on racial grounds, or everyone's should be.

[quote]"Black" historians turn up information like the stuff posted by gsmonks in another thread, about St. George, the so-called "Black Mozart."  Whereas - his story ought to be a part of history in the first place.  So long as that is relegated to "Black history" there will persist in being a distortion of perception - black people persistently feeling like our history is being deliberately "whitewashed" and white people persistently wondering what it is that black folks are going on and on about - seeing as they just aren't aware of much of the history that black people make a point of learning.[/quote]

Which is why I agree with you wholeheartedly -- history should not be segregated if the people learning are going to have any success at desegregating themselves.

[quote][quote]See my previous post -- non-white racist organizations such as NAACP[/quote]

An organization founded by blacks and whites (mostly whites)?  I don't think so.

[quote]and MALDEF are perfectly acceptable,[/quote]

I don't know what they are all about, so I have to refrain from commentary.[/quote]

Just because the genesis of the NAACP was assisted by white people doesn't mean that it focuses on furthering the interests of white people. MALDEF attempts to further the interests of hispanic people. These organizations are respected for furthering what are essentially racist agendas, but organizations in pursuit of the interests of white people almost exclusively are labeled as racist and demonized on that point.

[quote][quote]whereas similar organizations for whites (such as NAAWP) are demonized.[/quote]

If the NAAWP was a benevolent organization doing all of the things they say in their first few bulletpoints, I'd probably have no problem with them.  But the NAAWP also says:

[quote]*High, illegitimate, minority birthrates - if allowed to continue - will one day make them the majority and give them political control of our country - just as they now control major cities.[/quote]

That's an inherently hateful thing to say.[/quote]

It certainly is -- but here's some more:

Mario Obledo (former California secretary of health and welfare and co-founder of Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund: "We're going to take over all the political institutions of California. California is going to be a Hispanic state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. If they [Anglos] don't like Mexicans, they ought to go back to Europe." [interviewed on radio station KIEV, Los Angeles, June 17, 1998.] (added 6/29/03)

Jeff Hitchcock (co-founder of the Center for the Study of White American Culture) -"There is plenty to blame whiteness for. There is no crime that whiteness has not committed against people of color. There is no crime that we have not committed even against ourselves. . . . We must blame whiteness for the continuing patterns today that deny the rights of those outside of whiteness and which damage and pervert the humanity of those of us within it." [Chris Weinkopf, "Whiteness Studies," Frontpagemag.com, June 25, 2003.] (added 6/29/03)

Gregory Jay (English professor at the University of Wisconsin, on the purpose of Whiteness Studies) - "to make visible the history and practices of white supremacy as found in social life, the law, literature, music, politics, and every other realm of our 'civilization.' " [Chris Weinkopf, "Whiteness Studies," Frontpagemag.com, June 25, 2003.] (added 6/29/03)

Stan Crock (correspondent in BusinessWeek's Washington bureau) - "minorities -- not whites -- should be the beneficiaries of both the 14th Amendment and the notion of "strict scrutiny" of racially tinged laws." [Stan Crock, The Real Affirmative Action Problem, BusinessWeek, May 30, 2003.] (added 6/29/03)

Haunani-Kay Trask (Professor of Hawaiian Studies at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, and author of the following poem)

Racist White Woman
I could kick
Your face, puncture
Both eyes.
You deserve this kind
Of violence.
No more vicious
Tongues, obscene
Lies.
Just a knife
Slitting your tight
Little heart.
For all my people
Under your feet
For all those years
Lived smug and wealthy
Off our land
Parasite arrogant
A fist
In your painted
Mouth, thick
With money
And piety

[Ryan O'Donnell, "Hate America Professor," Frontpagemag.com, June 25, 2003.]

Samuel Lin (Asian student at the University of California at Berkeley on what should be done about white men who date Asian women) - "I think we should f---in' kill them all. Get your own ladies. Stick to your own flavor." [Carrie Chang, "White Light," Monolid Magazine, Vol. 2, No. 1.](added 4/10/03)

Carrie Chang (writer for Monolid Magazine on an Asian friend who dated white men) - "Suffice it to say, she was not the only Asian woman I had met with a hankering for Mr. Mayonnaise or marshmallow face." [Carrie Chang, "White Light," Monolid Magazine, Vol. 2, No. 1.] (added 4/10/03)

Donna Lamb (member of 'Caucasians United for Reparations and Emancipation') - "Knowing what I know about what my people did, I wouldn't be able to respect myself if I weren't doing everything I can to have … white people face up to this crime we committed and to right this great wrong." [Manny Fernandez, Thousands To Rally for Reparations Apology Also Sought For Slave Descendants, Washington Post, August 16, 2002] (added 4/10/03)

David Roediger (social historian at the University of Minnesota) - "Whiteness is the empty and therefore terrifying attempt to build an identity on what one isn't, and on whom one can hold back." [The Social Contract, A Europhobia Sampler, Summer 1998, p. 290.] (added 4/10/03)

Grace Watkins (black 18-year-old New Yorker on two policemen killed in a shootout at the Stapleton Houses project where she lives): "I think a lot of people out here weren't worried about [the killings] because they thought they were white cops. But when they heard the cops were black, they're attitude changed totally. And they started expressing concern for the police officers' families." [Douglas Montero, "Surprising Sympathy Dawns in Projects," New York Post, March 12, 2003.] (added 3/14/03)

Charles Barron (New York City Councilman, on the subject of reparations for slavery) -- "I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health." [Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean" National Review Online, January 6, 2003.] (added 2/05/03)

Sharpe James (mayor of Newark, New Jersey referring to his light-skinned black opponent in the 2002 Democratic primary) -- "the faggot white boy." [Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean" National Review Online, January 6, 2003.] (added 2/05/03)

Willie Brown (then-California assembly speaker, after a 1995 victory over Republicans in a leadership battle) -- "The white boys got taken fair and square." When asked by ABC correspondent Judd Rose if he regretted that comment, Mr. Brown replied, "It was an adequate and accurate description of a collection of people who had been defeated on this occasion." [Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean" National Review Online, January 6, 2003.] (added 2/05/03)

Noel Ignatiev (white Harvard professor and editor of "Race Traitor" magazine) -- "Keep bashing the dead white males, and the live ones, and the females, too, until the social construct known as the white race is destroyed. Not deconstructed, but destroyed." [Robert Boatman, "Trent Lott's of the Left," Frontpagemag.com (online), January 3, 2003.] (added 2/05/03)

Donna Brazile (Director of Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign) -- "A white-boy attitude is 'I must exclude, denigrate and leave behind.' " [Robin Givhan, Clearing the Decks at Gore Headquarters, Washington Post, Nov. 16, 1999, p. C1.] (added 2/05/03)

Nathan McCall (journalist for the Washington Post in his autobiography "Makes Me Wanna Holler") -- "The fellas and I were hanging out on our corner one afternoon when the strangest thing happened. A white boy … came pedaling a bicycle casually through the neighborhood. … Somebody spotted him and pointed him out to the rest of us. 'Look! What's that motherf*cka doin' ridin' through here?! Is he crraaaazy?!' … We caught him on Cavalier Boulevard and knocked him off the bike. … Ignoring the passing cars, we stomped him and kicked him. My stick partners kicked him in the head and face and watched the blood gush from his mouth. I kicked him in the stomach and nuts, where I knew it would hurt. Every time I drove my foot into his balls, I felt better … one dude kept stomping, like he'd gone berserk … When he finished, he reached down and picked up the white dude's bike, lifted it as high as he could above his head, and slammed it down on him hard. … We walked away, laughing, boasting, competing for bragging rights about who'd done the most damage." [Nathan McCall, Makes Me Wanna Holler: A Young Black Man in America, Random House, 1993, p. 3.] (added 2/05/03)

Robin Morgan (white author) -- "My white skin disgusts me. My passport disgusts me. They are the marks of an insufferable privilege bought at the price of others' agony. If I could peel myself inside out I would be glad. If I could become part of the oppressed I would be free." [Robert Boatman, "Trent Lott's of the Left," Frontpagemag.com (online), January 3, 2003.] (added 2/05/03)

Spike Lee (film director) -- "When talking about the history of this great country, one can never forget that America was built upon the genocide of Native Americans and enslavement of African people. To say otherwise is criminal." [Lee Gives 'The Patriot' a Thumbs-Down, Los Angeles Times, July 7, 2000, p. F2.] (added 2/05/03)

Spike Lee (film director) -- "I'm convinced AIDS is a government-engineered disease. They got one thing wrong, they never realized it couldn't just be contained to the groups it was intended to wipe out. So, now it's a national priority. Exactly like drugs when they escaped the urban centers into white suburbia." [Janet Braunstein, "Spike's Message Obscured," Detroit Free Press, Nov. 9, 1992, p. 4F.]

George P. Bush (son of Florida Governor Jeb Bush and his Mexican-born wife Columba, and nephew of the President speaking to a gathering of Hispanics) -- ". . . we have to fight for our race, we have to find the leaders who represent us."[Reuters, Aug. 2, 2000.] (added 2/05/03)

Marcus Jacoby (the only white on the historically black Southern University football team from 1996 to 1998) -- "I heard the entire stadium booing me. Fans were yelling 'Get the white boy out.' " Mr. Jacoby left the team because of repeated death threats. [Ira Berkow, Race: "Keeping Score in Louisiana," The Oregonian, Aug. 1, 2000, p. A6.] (added 2/05/03)

Ann Rhodes (University Relations Vice President at the University of Iowa speaking after it was discovered a black woman staged a phony hate crime) -- "I figured it was going to be a white guy between 25 and 55 because they're the root of most evil." [Greg Smith, "Black Student Arrested in Racist Threats at Iowa Dental School," AP, April 20, 2000. Scott Hogenson, "College Official Calls White Men 'Root of Most Evil,'" CNSNews.com, April 21, 2000.] (added 2/05/03)

Ice Cube (black rap musician) -- "Ice Cube wishes to acknowledge white America's continued commitment to the silence and oppression of black men. . . . White America needs to thank black people for still talkin' to them 'cause you know what happens when we stop." [pamphlet included in his 1992 album The Predator.] (added 2/05/03)

Randall Robinson (black race activist and head of TransAfrica, a group that promotes racial solidarity between black Africans and black Americans) -- "In the autumn of my life, I am left regarding white people, before knowing them individually, with irreducible mistrust and dull dislike." [Randall Robinson, Defending the Spirit: A Black Life in America, 1998, p.xiii.] (added 2/05/03)

Randall Robinson (black race activist and head of TransAfrica, a group that promotes racial solidarity between black Africans and black Americans) -- "My father died in 1974 at the age of sixty-eight, of what the family now believes to have been Alzheimer's disease. Toward the end, and not lucid, he slapped a nurse, telling her not to 'put her white hands on him.' His illness had afforded him one final brief honesty. I was perversely pleased when told the story." [Randall Robinson, Defending the Spirit: A Black Life in America, 1998, p.xiii.] (added 2/05/03)

Frances Cress Welsing (black psychiatrist) --"White male homosexuality may be viewed as the symbolic attempt to incorporate into the white male body more male substance by either sucking the penis of another male and orally ingesting the semen, or by having male ejaculate deposited in the other end of the alimentary canal. Through anal intercourse, the self-debasing white male may fantasize that he can produce a product of color, albeit that the product of color is fecal matter." [Frances Cress Welsing, The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors, Third World Press, 1991, p. 47.] (added 2/05/03)

Frances Cress Welsing (black psychiatrist) -- "On both St. Vanlentine's Day and Mother's Day, the white male gives gifts of chocolate candy with nuts. . . . If his sweetheart ingests 'chocolate with nuts,' the white male can fantasize that he is genetically equal to the Black male." [Frances Cress Welsing, The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors, Third World Press, 1991, p. 76.] (added 2/05/03)

Frances Cress Welsing (black psychiatrist) -- "Is it not also curious that when white males are young and vigorous, they attempt to master the large brown balls, but as they become older and wiser, they psychologically resign themselves to their inability to master the large brown balls? Their focus then shifts masochistically to hitting the tiny white golf balls in disgust and resignation -- in full final realization of white genetic recisiveness." [Frances Cress Welsing, The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors, Third World Press, 1991, p. 141.] (added 2/05/03)

Chancellor Williams (Afrocentrist and author of The Destruction of Black Civilization) -- "The necessary re-education of Blacks and a possible solution of the racial crisis can begin . . . only when Blacks fully realize this central fact to their lives: the white man is their Bitter Enemy." [Phil Collier and David Horowitz, The Race Card, 1997, p. 104.] (added 2/05/03)

Elizabeth Smith (Texaco vice president for investor relations) -- "White males are only hired by default," [Jon E. Dougherty, "White Males Need Not Apply at Texaco," WorldNetDaily.com, March 31, 1999.] (added 2/05/03)

Carol Moseley Braun (former U.S. Senator responding to a column by George Will on her many financial scandals) -- "I think because he couldn't say 'n*gger' he used the word 'corrupt.' George Will can just take off his hood and go back to wherever he came from." [George Will, Moseley-Braun May Find Defeat, Chicago Sun-Times, Sept. 7, 1998, p. 19. Scott Fornek, Moseley-Braun Writes Apology, Chicago Sun-Times, Sept. 9, 1998, p. 24.] (added 2/05/03)

Rodolfo Acuna (professor of Chicano studies at Cal State Northridge) "There's a growing feeling 'Why should we pay for all these senior citizens' if the majority of them are white and all they were willing to pay for was prisons?" [Jonathan Tilove, Generation Gap Becoming Racial Gap, San Francisco Examiner, Nov. 23, 1997, p. A17.] (added 2/05/03)

Stephen Klineberg (Rice University sociologist on the defeat of a ballot initiative in Houston that would have outlawed affirmative action) "I think this shows that Houston has transcended its redneck Southern past and is recognizing its destiny as a multiethnic, international city in a global economy." [Jesse Katz, Houston Thinks Globally in OK of Affirmative Action, Los Angeles Times, Nov. 6, 1997, p. A14.] (added 2/05/03)

Amiri Baraka (poet laureate of the state of New Jersey) -- "Come up, black dada nihilismus. Rape the white girls. Rape their fathers. Cut the mothers' throats." [from "Black Dada Nihilismus".] (added 2/05/03)

Amiri Baraka (poet laureate of the state of New Jersey) "When I die, the consciousness I carry I will to black people. May they pick me apart and take the useful parts, the sweet meat of my feelings. And leave the bitter b*llsh*t rotten white parts alone. (from his classic "Leroy") [John McAlpin, "NJ Gov. Seeks Authority to Fire Poet," AP, Oct. 6, 2002.] (added 2/05/03)

Robert Mugabe (President of Zimbabwe who is taking the land of white farmers and revoking their citizenship) -- "Our party must continue to strike fear in the heart of the white man, our real enemy!" [J.T. Young, "Zimbabwean double standard," Washington Times, January 14, 2003, p. A15.] (added 2/05/03)

Robert Mugabe (President of Zimbabwe who is taking the land of white farmers and revoking their citizenship) -- "Zimbabwe is for black people not white people." ["Zimbabwe 'Votes' " American Renaissance, April 2002, p. 9.] (added 2/05/03)

John Street (black mayor of Philadelphia) -- "Let me tell you: The brothers and sisters are running this city. Oh yes. The brothers and sisters are running this city. Running it! Don't let nobody fool you; we are in charge of the City of Brotherly Love. We are in charge! We are in charge! [Cynthia Burton, "Street Talk Hits a Nerve on Race," Philadelphia Inquirer, April 17, 2002, p. A1.] (added 2/05/03)

Harris Sussman (white "diversity consultant," in a front-page article in Managing Diversity, a publication subscribed to by U.S. government agencies) -- "When we say 'white people,' we mean the people of greed who valued things over people, who value money over people. We know exactly what their values are and where they lead. We have all paid a terrible price for those values . . . ." [White People, Washington Times, Feb. 13, 1997, p. A10.] (added 2/05/03)

['Comment: 'Sussman' is Jewish, the editor, it would seem, forgot to place quotes around "white"]

William Raspberry (black columnist)- "It is hard to think of whites-only groups formed for the benefit of their members that could gain our approval. Perhaps an organization of white LA police officers formed to help its members improve their attitudes towards minorities . . . . It's always illegitimate for white men to organize as white men." [William Raspberry, "Dubiously Exclusive," Washington Post, Nov. 24, 1995.] (added 2/05/03)

Maggie Gallagher (white columnist) -- "I hate the idea of being white. I never think of myself as belonging to the 'white race.' Those who do, in my experience, are invariably second-raters, seeking solace for their own failures. I can think of few things more degrading than being proud to be white." [Maggie Gallagher, "The Rhetoric of Race," NY Post, Oct. 20, 1995, p. 25.] (added 2/05/03)

Leonard Jeffries (chairman of the African-American studies department of the City College of New York, interviewed in the May, 1995 issue of Rutherford magazine) :
Q: But the black man is no longer a slave.
A: The slave should be waking up, thinking of ways to slit the slavemaster's throat. . . .
Q: What kind of world do you want to leave to your children?
A: A world in which there aren't any white people. . . .
[T.L. Stanclu & Nisha Mohammed, Leonard Jeffries Jr., Rutherford, May 1995, p. 13.] (added 2/05/03)

Paul Mooney (black comedian) -- "White people are scared, because minorities are taking over. White people are worried because they can't out-f*** the Mexicans --minorities in numbers alone are taking over, and white folks are scared because they are afraid that we are going to do to them exactly what they've done to us. And they are absolutely right. When the s*** turns around, we are going to treat you exactly like you've treated us: like s***."[ Danyel Smith, Full Moon, The Bay Guardian, 3/3/93.] (added 2/05/03)

Art Carey (white columnist) -- "White Guys also tend to have wide hips, flat butts, bulging love handles, fat guts, sunken chests, weak chins, spindly arms, treble voices, red necks and, after a certain age, thinning hair or bald heads. Some may find these anatomical peculiarities appealing, believe it or not . . . . Think of the most obnoxious White Guy you know. Guess what? He's going to croak . . . you get to watch White Guys die."[ Art Carey, "The Great White Dopes," San Jose Mercury News, June 15, 1993.] (added 2/05/03)

Kay Patterson (state senator in the South Carolina legislature writing in an invitation to black politicians) -- "Now please don't bring any of your 'White-Friends,' this is a 'Colored' meeting."[ Patterson offers no apology for actions, Post and Courier (Columbia) 4/5/93, p. 3B.] (added 2/05/03)

Jocelyn Walters (journalism student at the University of Georgia in the campus-related paper called The Red & Black) "I'm talking to you, white America. You're wrong. You're evil.... Your greed is overwhelming. Your lust for power disgusting. The blood on your hands signifies what a demon you are. . . . " "You have always thrived off of the blood and sweat of others. You drink them. It is your sustenance.... You make me sick! Sick with anger. Sick with disgust. Sick with the desire to ruin you like you have ruined so many others . . . . [Jocelyn Walters, "Blacks Should revolt against white, male America," The Red and Black, Feb 15, 1993.]

Richard Parry-Jones (white vice president of Ford Motor Company) -- "we are trapped in a monocultural environment that is dominated by old white males. We need to change." [AP, Ford Ties Executives Perks Pay to Merit, Dec. 24, 1999.]

Susan Sontag (white intellectual) "The truth is that Mozart, Pascal, Boolean Algebra, Shakespeare, parliamentary government, baroque churches, Newton, the emancipation of women, Kant, Marx, and Ballanchine ballets don't redeem what this particular civilization has wrought upon the world. The white race is the cancer of human history."

[ Comment: Sontag is a Jew.]

Sonny Carson (black activist in New York when asked if he was anti-Semitic) "I am anti-white. I don’t limit my ‘anti’ to just one group of people." [Mark Mooney, "Ex-Dinkins Organizer Boasts He’s ‘AntiWhite’" New York Post, October 21, 1989, p. 3.]

Miles Davis (black jazz musician) "If somebody told me I had only one hour to live, I’d spend it choking a white man. I’d do it nice and slow." [Miles Davis Can’t Shake Boyhood Racial Abuse, Jet March 25, 1985.]

Eldridge Clever (former Black Panther leader on why he raped white women) "Rape was an insurrectionary act. It delighted me that I was defying and trampling upon the white man’s law, upon his system of values, and that I was defiling his women . . . ." [Eldridge Clever, Soul on Ice, McGraw-Hill, 1968, p.14.]

Gus Savage (former U.S. Representative from Chicago to a white member of the press) "I don’t talk to you white motherf*ckers. . . . You bitch motherf*ckers in the white press. . . . F*ck you, you motherf*cking *sshole . . . white devils." [Marilyn Rauber, "Reporter Says Black Rep Hurled Racial Slurs," New York Post, June 27, 1991, p. 18.]

Chino Wilson (in an editorial in the Daily Collegian, campus newspaper at Penn State University) "After looking at all the evidence there is only one conclusion: white people are devils . . . . I believe that we must secure our freedom and independence from these devils by any means necessary, including violence. . . . To protect ourselves we should bear arms (three handguns and two rifles, maybe an M-16) immediately and form a militia. . . . So black people, let us unite, organize and execute." [Chino Wilson, "African American Students Should Not Trust ‘Devilish’ White People," The Daily Collegian, Penn State University, January 28, 1992.]

Khalid Abdul Muhammed (former assistant to Louis Farrakhan - current leader of the New Black Panther Party) -’Hollywood is owned by these so-called Jews. Look at the movies they make about us, Black people killing Black people. Let’s make some revolutionary movies where we kill white people in the movie. Kill ‘em so hard you have to cover up your popcorn from the blood spraying out of the screen." [Speech at San Francisco State University, May 21, 1997.]

Khalid Abdul Muhammed (on what South African blacks should do to any whites who refuse to leave South Africa): "We kill the women. We kill the babies. We kill the blind. We kill the cripples. We kill them all. . . . When you get through killing them all, go to the g*dd*mn graveyard and kill them a-g*dd*mn-gain because they didn’t die hard enough."[November 29, 1993 speech at Kean College in Union, New Jersey.]

Mary Frances Berry (current head of U.S. Commission on Civil Rights) - "Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them." [Civil Rights Under Reagan, San Francisco, ICS Press, 1991, p. 141.]

Augustin Cebada (Head of the Brown Berets, a Hispanic activist organization at a July 4, 1996 rally) - "We’re here today to show L.A., show the minority people here, the Anglo-Saxons, that we are here, the majority, we’re here to stay. We do the work in this city, we take care of the spoiled brat children . . . we are the majority here and we are not going to be pushed around."

Augustin Cebada "Go back to Simi Valley, you skunks! Go back to Woodland Hills! Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people, it is your duty to die. . . ." [Quoted in Barbara Coe, Reconquista, The Takeover of America, California Coalition for Immigration Reform, 1998, p. 20.]

Prof. Jose Angel Gutierrez (University of Texas, Arlington) "We have an aging white America. They are dying. They are sh*tting in their pants with fear! . . . I love it!" - [Speech of Jan. 1995, quoted in Coe, Reconquista, p. 16.]

Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall (in a conversation with Justice William Douglas about racial preferences) "You guys have been practicing discrimination for years. Now it is our turn." [William O. Douglas, The Court Years 1939-1975, New York, Random House, 1980.]

Bell Hooks (black professor of English at City College of New York) "I am writing this essay sitting beside an anonymous white male that I long to murder." [From her book A Killing Rage, quoted by David Horowitz in Hating Whitey, Spence Publishing, 1999, p. 31.]

Sister Souljah (rap artist and black activist) "If black people kill black people every day, why not have a week and kill white people." [R.W. Apple "Jackson Sees ‘Character Flaw’ in Clinton’s Remarks on Racism, New York Times, June 19, 1992.]

Ice Cube (black rapper and actor, on the anti-Korean album Death Certificate) "So don’t follow me up and down your market. or your little chop suey ass will be a target. So pay your respects to the black fist or we’ll burn your store right down to a crisp." [Eric Briendel, "Rap Star to Koreans: ‘We’ll Burn Your Stores,’ " New York Post, Dec. 5, 1991, p. 29.]

Amiri Baraka (black poet and writer) "You cant steal nothin from a white man, he’s already stole it he owes you anything you want, even his life. All the stores will open up if you will say the magic words. The magic words are: Up against the wall motherf*cker this is a stick up!" [Quoted in Anne Wortham, The Other Side of Racism, Ohio State University Press, 1981, p. 257.]

Mario Obledo - (1998 Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient and former head of Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund - MALDEF) "California is going to be a Mexican state, we are going to control all the institutions. If people don’t like it they should leave." [Tom Leykis Radio Show, June 7, 1998.]

Malcolm X - "The death of over 120 white people is a very beautiful thing." [Speech in Los Angeles on June 3, 1962 upon learning of a plane crash. He also said on numerous occasions, "The white man is the devil."]

Rev. James Cone - "What we need is the destruction of whiteness, which is the source of human misery in the world." [Quoted in David Horowitz, Hating Whitey, Spence Publishing, 1999, p. 44.]

Art Torres (former chairman, California Democratic Party) - "Remember, [Proposition] 187 [the measure to cut public benefits to illegal aliens] is the last gasp of white America." [The Social Contact, Summer 1998, p. 290.]

Willie Brown (Mayor of San Francisco to a white parent complaining that affirmative action would penalize his children) "I don’t care about your idiot children." [The Social Contract, Summer 1998, p. 290.]

Now -- do you see a difference? Look at where yours came from, and the reaction it got -- have you even see the ones I posted before? Was an uproar raised about them? Did anyone in the media express any upset or opposition to those hateful things? There's the difference.

Racism on the part of whites is evil, so we're told, but racism against whites is justified. That's the message we get when no one stands up to the Mayor Browns, the Chairman Torreses and the Reverend Cones.

Well, there are people standing up to them -- and those people are the white racists, the "Commander Jeffs" as much as we'd wish for someone a little less "out there" at least they are out there.

#309 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 09:28 PM

G1223, on Oct 18 2005, 10:27 AM, said:

Zwolf666, on Oct 18 2005, 02:01 PM, said:

Riots are bad things.

Busting the heads of Nazis, however, is a very good thing.  I don't mind violence against those scumbags at all.   So, at least some good came of it. :)

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



So shall we call it hunting season and go kill them in their homes and not call it murder. If it's ok to do it while they are in the streets why not their homes.

Hell we could kick in the doors of people's home claiming to be on a Nazi hunt and if we do not like the people call them nazi and kill them.

Are you white? I mean I do not know of any hispanic nazi so now we have excuses to attack and kill white folks. throw down a few armbands and you can have the perfect excuse.

Of course when they start shooting at you for attacking them. Or go south park on you.


The part where they shoot black folks and shout out. "He's comming right for me."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


And who would they have learned this from?

but from those who have used what's commonly known as Klan Tactics.

Gee....
"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#310 GiGi

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 09:49 PM

Quote

Pull all the facts together and present them as a whole. Let's make it OUR history. The two races have worked together to build great things, fought against one another in horrific wars, and otherwise been involved with each other for like... ever.

QT, you so incredibly ROCK.

that is all.

GiGi
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#311 bakuninmeow

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:12 PM

Have been readin' the threads in this particular forum with some interest, especially as this is a subject of more than a little interest to me.

Personally, I tend to be of two minds on this issue.

One part of me would dearly love to see Neo-Nazis and their ilk washed down a sewer drain like just so much trash, and have put paid to them.

Another part of me thinks that anti-racist counter-demonstrators need to be a lot more creative in their approaches to Neo-Nazi provocations.

I agree with Zwolf's contention that the NSM's march through the neighbourhood in question was provocative, and was designed by the group's membership to gain as much attention, and, from many white Americans, potential sympathy, especially if one of their members got hurt or killed during the riots that followed.

Having participated in my share of small-scale anti-Iraq War demos over the past few years, as well as on other issues, a march or protest is designed, whenever possible, to grab the maximum amount of public, media and governing class attention for an issue or set of issues held dear by a particular group of people.

The NSM, in that regard, was following that very long-established practise.

On the other hand, shouting insults at people residing in a neighbourhood is, at the very least, foolhardy, and, at worst, extremely dangerous, especially if it turns out that the number of people opposing you greatly outnumbers you numerically, and, in some cases, in terms of sheer fire-power that can be brought to bear.

If the two accounts I've read about the case are in any ways accurate, then the NSM could be considered guilty of disturbing the peace, which they most certainly were, and told by the police to either cease shouting said insults, move on, or face arrest.

This, I don't think, was done in Toledo's case, and what a pity it wasn't.


It seems that Toledo's leadership could have, and should have, used such legalities to alternately curb the Nutzis' rowdiness, as well as that of many of the counter-demonstrators, and, perhaps, those riots might have been either avoided or considerably reduced in the scope of their violence and property damage.

The NSM's leadership could have also been informed, and I hope they were, by Toledo's mayor and police chief, that the use of any racially derogatory language by themselves and their followers would be considered as disturbing the peace, with most, if not all, of the consequent legal and financial penalties for failing to do so, falling hard upon them.

Now, before someone drags out the First Amendment here, let me please remind you that the Amendment, as worded, specifically prohibits Congress from making laws or rules designed to curb the freedoms of the press and assembly, as well as prohibiting the establishment of a state religion in this country.

Nowhere in the First Amendment are states, municipalities and other localities, as well as private companies and individuals, enjoined from prohibiting certain forms of speech and assembly that may be considered threatening to the safety and welfare of those groups and individuals.

Mind you, I think that it's a right that should be used by those groups and individuals only with the greatest reluctance and as seldomly as possible.

Nonetheless, it's there.

Now, having strayed so far from the second point that I ended up in the middle of the Gobi Desert, I also have to say that jeering, throwing rocks, bottles, etc, and fighting with Nazi boneheads, while providing very temporary emotional release for those engaged, and exciting images for the media, doesn't help the counter-demonstrators' causes one bit.

But, passively staying in one's home while these meat-heads parade through one's neighbourhood isn't much of an option, either.

Rather, I think that such events can be used by counter-demonstrators, and the groups with which they're affliated, as a means of standing up to this crude form of racism, while also educating the general public, via the media, about how racism in the US currently works, and why.

This can be partially be done through the use of mass bursts of laughter and ridicule by the counter-demonstrators, especially during speeches by Neo-Nazi leaders.

Mass expressions of boredom and disdain, like yawning, at other points of a Neo-Nazi rally might also have some effect, especially on the morale of some of the more impressionable Neo-Nazis.

The problem with the use of violence at such events is, in most cases, it confirms the Neo-Nazis' prejudices, while potentially whipping up sympathy for them in segments of the white community, and it soldifies their sense of being a righteous elite under attack, which is how many of these suckers see themselves.

But, with ridicule and disdain specfically directed at their leaders and beliefs, while being physically un-threatening at the same time, some Neo-Nazis, over time, might start wondering just how "righteous" they and their cause are.

Authoritarian- and totalitarian-minded individuals don't take ridicule well, especially if the ridicule of them is accurately done.

They also don't like being disdained, because, like any human being, they regard themselves as being reasonable, "good" people, with a right to be taken seriously.

But, when they find themselves being non-violently ridiculed or disdained by large numbers of people, and, indeed, are laughed out of a neighbourhood for being the involuntary clowns that they are.  

If this happens, not only once, but time and again, then I think that one can reasonably conclude that morale, especially among many rank-and-file members of Neo-Nazi groups, will plunge considerably because why would anyone, unless they're so devoted to their particular cause that they'l persist anyway, keep on going to rallies, marches, etc, where their messages are consistently met with derision and indifference???

I admit that these suggestions aren't the greatest in the world, and I don't know how well they would work in the field.

However, I think that the use of jeering, baiting and violence by anti-Nazis doesn't help their causes at all in the eyes of the general public, and, if anything, helps their bonehead counter-parts gain publicity that they otherwise might not have.

The problem of racism in the US is a far deeper-rooted and complex one, than the antics of a few Neo-Nutzis marching through an African-American neighbourhood.

It involves the limitation of economic and social opportunities for members of racial and ethnic minorities, the kind of un-spoken racism behind many of the Republican, and some Democratic Party, attacks on welfare programmes from the 1970's through to-day, and the un-willingness of many European-Americans to acknowledge, and to make up for, the mistakes and crimes of their ancestors and themselves.

Those problems can be found across every portion of the American political spectrum that one cares to name, and it will be these problems, along with the growing income gaps between the upper- and upper-middle-classes, and the rest of the American people that may yet prove to be the un-doing of the American Republic.

In my opinion, one must fight overt racism and other forms of prejudice, yes, but, the covert forms have to be fought harder, because they're potentially deadlier.

Sorry for the long-ass rant here. Thanks for indulging me.

Cheers, D.

#312 Lin731

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:16 PM

Quote

Sorry for the long-ass rant here. Thanks for indulging me.


It was well worth reading!
Posted Image
Posted Image

#313 bakuninmeow

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:19 PM

Much appreciated, Lin. Thank you very much!!!!

Cheers, D.

#314 Chakotay

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 03:05 AM

bakuninmeow, on Oct 30 2005, 12:12 AM, said:

But, passively staying in one's home while these meat-heads parade through one's neighbourhood isn't much of an option, either.
Cheers, D.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


yeah, freedom of Speech!(not violence)  cuts both ways.
Silence however can be a killer. Check out Germany in the 30s.... :(
  No plan survives first contact with the enemy - military axiom.

#315 bakuninmeow

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:34 AM

I most certainly agree with that.

Silence can and does kill in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Cheers, D.

#316 Nick

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 06:44 PM

Howling Mad, on Oct 27 2005, 07:32 AM, said:

Without legal enforcement, their segregation is voluntary, and they have no one to bitch to about it but themselves. No points for you there.

. . .

This sadly just confirms how unusually perceptive you aren't. ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Keep it civil, please.  Remember to keep your comments about the issues and opinions, don't demean other posters themselves.

-Nick

#317 QueenTiye

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 12:33 PM

Howling Mad, on Oct 28 2005, 09:38 PM, said:

How can it not be disenfranchisement? When blacks suspect that the political process and government institutions discriminate against them, they are said to be disenfranchised; so how can it be that whites are not subjected to precisely the same disenfranchisement when they are also subjected to discrimination under the political process and by government institutions, which is just what affirmative action does?

Blacks suspect the government of trying to disenfranchise them, and there is a long history of that actually happening.  But just because blacks may suspect it doesn't mean that it is happening.  Similarly, just because whites suspect a thing doesn't mean it is happening.  Disenfranchisment typically has meant excluding from the right to vote... that isn't happening.  More broadly, it means locking a group of people out of the power structure through a variety of approaches.  White people are not disenfranchised by affirmative action.

I started to write a point by point reply, but it was seeming long, redundant and pointless.  So I'm going for a different approach.

1st. Your central thesis seems to be, that the existence of racists on the minority side of the fence necessitates/justifies the existence of racists on the majority side of the fence.  Your thesis is flawed in two respects:

a. The majority wins - all the time.  In an outright confrontation of whites against blacks here in the US, whites would win, because they form the majority.  They've got the numbers on their side.  

b. (And more importantly) the argument ignores the effectiveness of NON-racists in combating racism

Indeed - extremists on both sides of the camp have to continually create the philosophical underpinnings of separation - left to their own devices, people simply relate to one another as people.  Extremists on both sides are very concerned about keeping the trenches firmly separated - especially when it comes to things like intermarriage - which is dreaded by those who want to keep the conflict going.  In my faith, intermarriage is actively encouraged - expressly to END the conflict - to create bridges of genuine human understanding. (That's not to say that people go around trying to marry people outside of their race/culture.  But when it happens, it is considered to be a good thing.)

2.  Special interest groups work on behalf of their special interests.  We can debate about whether or not that should be happening - whether or not segments of the population should organize societies in which they try to get everything for their own interests, and let the rest of society fend for themselves - but in the current political climate - special interest groups are fundamentally a part of the fabric of American political life.  As such - there is nothing wrong with a group organizing to advance the interests of black people, or asian people, or white people. What IS a problem is special interest groups having in their charter hatred of others.  That crosses the line from being a special interest group to being a hate group.  NAAWP crosses the line.  

3. You suggest that white racists are treated worse than black racists.  I've stated repeatedly that the reason for this is historical precedent.  The KKK (for instance) can claim not to be the same old cross burning, lynching mob that they were - but they can't expect people to actually believe it... the risk is simply too great.

That said - I lived in New York during some of the controversies you listed - and because I'm African-American, I happen to be quite close to the news of what goes on with various people who gain media notoriety.  Khallid Muhammad was lambasted all over the press - there was nothing but calls for his repudiation.  At a time when Min. Louis Farrakhan was attempting to steer the Nation of Islam into a more tolerant direction and trying to make overtures to the white community - Khallid became so virulently outspoken that he almost entirely derailed this new direction of the Nation of Islam, and was dismissed by Farrakhan.  

Sonny Carson was one of the main reasons then Mayor David Dinkins did not get re-elected. Public outcry over those statements that you quoted caused him to be dismissed from a government post, and significantly damaged the Dinkins administration.

Prof. Leonard Jeffries was dismissed as chair of CUNY black studies department.  He did in FACT do something worthwhile - he put together a "Curriculum of Inclusion" such as I believe is necessary... he along with a bunch of other educators of various persuasions, including white, came up with a k-12 curriculum that would integrate history.  BUT, because of his other extremist commentary - it was very easy for those who had no desire of implementing any inclusionary curriculum to label him a racist and dismiss the curriculum out of hand.  (I don't know if the curriculum was any good or not - but it seemed a valuable effort.  I certainly support the idea of a curriculum of inclusion.)

ETC.  

So, in answer to your question

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Now -- do you see a difference? Look at where yours came from, and the reaction it got -- have you even see the ones I posted before? Was an uproar raised about them? Did anyone in the media express any upset or opposition to those hateful things? There's the difference.

Yes.  The media raised QUITE a fuss, as did the political machinery where these people were operating, as did the average citizen, when politicians who harbored racism from minorities came up for reelection.

I agree that the free-for-all attitude of comedians is deplorable.  There is a reason I don't really watch Paul Mooney and some other comedians.  TO me, having some kind of cathartic open season on white people is no substitute for actual problem solving (and facing) in the black community. There's a side of me that suspects the media of complicitly letting stuff like that be successful, to keep black people from actually addressing the real problems they face.  After all, Budweiser is a big sponsor of African History. :sarcasm:  Plenty of money to be made from poor people drowning their sorrows in Budweiser and racist wisecracks.

But - this brings me to where I really want to be.  

We can go tit-for-tat all day about who is more racist than whom, who's got more extremist examples than whom, etc.  It isn't productive.  It doesn't solve problems.  For that matter - rooting for one's OWN extremist doesn't help matters either.  In both cases, the real work of changing conditions doesn't get done by extremists shouting at each other.  The concerns of white people and black people and other minorities have a nexus - a point at which they meet, and agree.  We (you and I) already found one:

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I did miss this, thanks for bringing it back to my attention. Unlike "Black History" subjects, white history is not taught in schools from a racial viewpoint.

Have you ever considered the fact that NO history should be taught from a "racial" viewpoint?  Black history is history.  It ought to be included in the history that is taught, period. The fact that "Black history" persists in being a segregated topic is not a compliment to black people, even if many think it is.

I agree 100%. Either no one's history should be given special focus as a seperate subject on racial grounds, or everyone's should be.

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"Black" historians turn up information like the stuff posted by gsmonks in another thread, about St. George, the so-called "Black Mozart."  Whereas - his story ought to be a part of history in the first place.  So long as that is relegated to "Black history" there will persist in being a distortion of perception - black people persistently feeling like our history is being deliberately "whitewashed" and white people persistently wondering what it is that black folks are going on and on about - seeing as they just aren't aware of much of the history that black people make a point of learning.

Which is why I agree with you wholeheartedly -- history should not be segregated if the people learning are going to have any success at desegregating themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Let's work on that.  Let's work on correcting this particular wrong.  It is manageable - and would go quite a way toward helping understand how we got to where we are today, and what we need to do to fix things.  Let's not let the extremists force us to places where it isn't productive to be.  Let's write/right the history.

BTW - I've actually made a start of this in this thread... your contributions are welcome.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 31 October 2005 - 12:41 PM.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#318 Shoshana

Shoshana
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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:46 PM

Thought this was an interesting take on a similar situation..

KKK to rally in Austin to support Prop. 2

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One controversial amendment driving voters to the polls is Proposition 2, a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage.

The Ku Klux Klan has announced plans to rally in Austin supporting that amendment this weekend. The Klan's visit to Austin is not a story News 8 Austin would normally cover. We believe the publicity plays into the hate group's goals. But rather than ignore a visit that many people are already talking about, we chose to uncloak the group's agenda.

...

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Certainly, emotions run high when it comes to bigotry, but Marks said, the key to killing the message is not to give it undue attention, which goes for the media too.

...

History professor Janice Sumler-Edmond will be at home Saturday afternoon.

Student Latrevor Johnson agrees.

"It should be ignored. It shouldn't even be brought up again. People should act like they're not even here," Johnson said.

Computer Science Professor Allen Johnson says news agencies should be mindful of the KKK's agenda.

"If they get the publicity they want, they consider it a success." Johnson said.

Sounds like a  "Don't feed the trolls" :D

We'll have to see how this plays out Saturday. Hopefully just a great big :yawn:

'shana

Edited by Shoshana, 02 November 2005 - 05:48 PM.




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