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Riots In Toledo

Ohio Toledo Riots 2005

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#61 darthsikle

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:25 AM

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****yes it is
Goodbye.

#62 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 09:41 AM

******** Yeah
******** the
******** Jillian
******** style
******** posting
******** is
******** a
******** little
******** to
******** much

And Zwolf when you come up something other than ďThey canít be treated the same as everyone else because I donít like them.Ē Then Iíll jump back into this.

Posted Image


#63 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:13 AM

Grandtheftcow, on Oct 19 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

And Zwolf when you come up something other than ďThey canít be treated the same as everyone else because I donít like them.Ē Then Iíll jump back into this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, that's becoming tiresome...it always comes back around to that.
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#64 Zwolf

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:15 AM

Quote

And Zwolf when you come up something other than ďThey canít be treated the same as everyone else because I donít like them.Ē Then Iíll jump back into this.

***** I'm assuming that's meant to be some sort of incentive for me? :)  

If you think the only reason anyone would have for stopping Nazi skins is because "I don't like them," then I don't think you're wanting to understand the situation.  It's like you'd think I'd want to clip off a severed artery just 'cuz I'm worried about messing up the carpet.

Basically, if you feel good standing up for the civil rights of Nazis, then go on with your bad self and do that.  Just don't ask me to admire you for it, because, sorry, I don't.   I feel certain you'll be able to live with that - hey, maybe you can even feel like you have "moral high ground" or something.  Me, I'm happy doing what I can to hinder the bastards.   If that doesn't work for you, that's okay, I wasn't asking for your help or approval.  :)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#65 Grandtheftcow

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:24 AM

Unfortunate you canít think outside your own bias to look at a situation.

Iíll defend the rights of everyone who has them as long as they stay within those rights, and that racist group did stay within their rights.

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#66 Zwolf

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:37 AM

Quote

Unfortunate you canít think outside your own bias to look at a situation.

****** I often do.  I'll defend the rights of Christians all day long, and I'm an athiest.  I'll defend vegans, even though I eat many animals.  I'll defend a lot of things that I may have a bias against.   I just won't defend hate groups, because I see no downside to their rights being infringed, considering the fact that they only use them to make other people miserable.  Some biases are good.  It's not being closed-minded... it's being selective.   I do understand the point you're trying to make - I just don't agree with it.

Quote

Iíll defend the rights of everyone who has them as long as they stay within those rights, and that racist group did stay within their rights.

******** Then may you find the appreciation from them that you'll lack from me. :)  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#67 Lin731

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 01:03 PM

Ahhhh preaching tolerance for the intolerant. Preaching non-violence against the violent....Last time that was allowed to spread we had how many millions of dead Jews to show for it? You guys wanna support those goose-stepping, ass jockies, feel free. As for me, I will never "tolerate" ANY group whose agenda is all about the abuse, degradation, supression and ultimately the death of large swathes of "subhumans". You want to associate yourself with defending their rights, have at it. I'd no more defend their rights than I would the Man/Boy Love groups. Both have agendas that are flat out illegal and wrong. You folks may see no difference between tolerating the free speech rights of tree huggers, vegans, animal rights activist etc...but I do. None of them have an agenda based on abuse and murder of other humanbeings. I'm intolerant of hatred, intimidation, violence and ultimately murder...go figure?
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#68 MuseZack

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 01:10 PM

^^
It kind of reminds one of the hilarious Onion article,  "ACLUS defends nazis' rights to burn down aclu headquarters."

http://www.theonion....tent/node/39182

ACLU president Nadine Strossen told reporters that her organization intends to "vigorously and passionately defend" the Georgia chapter of the American Nazi Party's First Amendment right to freely express its hatred of the ACLU by setting its New York office ablaze on Nov. 25.

"I am reminded of the words of Voltaire: 'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,'" Strossen said. "While the ACLU vehemently disagrees with the idea of Nazis torching this building, the principle of freedom of expression must be supported in all cases. If we take away these Nazis' right to burn down our headquarters, we take away everyone's right to burn down our headquarters."

Buddy Carver, president of the Georgia chapter of the American Nazi Party, praised the ACLU for taking on his case. "I would like to thank Ms. Strossen and all the other n*gger-loving bleeding-heart liberals at the 'ACL-Jew' for defending my constitutional right to express my loathing of them with hundred-foot-high flames," said Carver, sporting a tan uniform and swastika arm band. "We must finish the job Hitler was unable to."
"Some day, after we have mastered the wind, the waves, the tides, and gravity,
We shall harness for God the energies of Love.
Then, for the second time in the history of the world,
we will have discovered fire."
--Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

#69 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 01:37 PM

Lin731, on Oct 16 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

BTW...maybe the former Education Sec. should educate himself to that fact that the majority of crime in this country ISN'T commited by blacks. Granted the crime numbers are TOO high but given that I beleive 60 percent of crime in commited by whites or other ethnic groups, we'd certainly drop the crime rates even more by aborting white babies....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Really. So you respond to racism with racism. Interesting. I also find it interesting in light of the fact that the majority of prison population is either black, hispanic, ect. Granted, there are whites there as well. But they are far outnumbered by the blacks.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#70 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:08 PM

Lin731, on Oct 19 2005, 01:03 PM, said:

Ahhhh preaching tolerance for the intolerant. Preaching non-violence against the violent....Last time that was allowed to spread we had how many millions of dead Jews to show for it? You guys wanna support those goose-stepping, ass jockies, feel free. As for me, I will never "tolerate" ANY group whose agenda is all about the abuse, degradation, supression and ultimately the death of large swathes of "subhumans". You want to associate yourself with defending their rights, have at it. I'd no more defend their rights than I would the Man/Boy Love groups. Both have agendas that are flat out illegal and wrong. You folks may see no difference between tolerating the free speech rights of tree huggers, vegans, animal rights activist etc...but I do. None of them have an agenda based on abuse and murder of other humanbeings. I'm intolerant of hatred, intimidation, violence and ultimately murder...go figure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The main point I've been trying to get across is: those who want to deny crackheads like the NSM their Constitutional rights to peacefully assemble aren't much better than aforementioned crackhead NSM members.

I didn't say let them carry through with their agenda.  There's a difference, and it doesn't take much intelligence to realize that.

Sorry, but I'm a little better than all that.  I guess those of us who've had to sweat for liberty savor it a little better than those who haven't, but whatever...
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#71 Zwolf

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:59 PM

Quote

The main point I've been trying to get across is: those who want to deny crackheads like the NSM their Constitutional rights to peacefully assemble aren't much better than aforementioned crackhead NSM members.

****** You can think that if it comforts you to do so, but my agenda is hardly the same as their agenda.  I'm not out to come down on somebody who's innocent and not trying to hurt anyone else.  They chose their path.  If somebody joins a group whose intent is to persecute someone else, then they don't get my respect.  I don't see standing up to criminals like that as infringing on their rights - I see it as consequences.  


Quote

I didn't say let them carry through with their agenda. There's a difference, and it doesn't take much intelligence to realize that.

******  We just have different ideas of when their agenda starts.  I'm wanting to keep it down before it gets overblown and the wrong people get hurt.  You'd rather wait until they start chopping heads, while I'd rather crack down on them while they're still just trying to intimidate and provoke.  The history of the Nazis shows us that it's a little too late when they get to the point of marching people into ovens.  I'm saying deal with them before they metastasize.   You don't have to agree; no one's asking you to join in.

Quote

Sorry, but I'm a little better than all that.

******** I'm glad that one of us is impressed with you. :)

Quote

I guess those of us who've had to sweat for liberty savor it a little better than those who haven't, but whatever...

******* We've gone from "I don't have a dog in that fight" to "sweating for liberty."  Quite a dichotomy there.  I haven't been in the military, I admit, but there are other ways to sweat for liberty.   I've fought a few of these guys you're defending and stood up for people they were trying to hurt.   And maybe that's why I don't treasure their precious "rights" as much as you do.  To me, "rights" are only as valuable as what one does with them.  These guys aren't using theirs for anyone's good, and so you'll just have to forgive me for not treasuring them.  If you see it differently, then that's fine; you do what works for you.  I'm not looking for you to approve of my viewpoint.  It wouldn't mean anything to me if you did, anyway.

Cheers,

Zwolf

Edited by Zwolf666, 19 October 2005 - 03:02 PM.

"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#72 Natolii

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:16 PM

MuseZack, on Oct 19 2005, 02:10 PM, said:

"I am reminded of the words of Voltaire: 'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,'"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Bingo...

I may not agree with the Neo-Nazi movement (No, make that I despise what they stand for) but at no time should their right to express themselves be curtailed.

It sets a dangerous precedence and leds us into curtailing other rights for other groups.

We can question their motives until the cows come home but there is no reason to deny them their Right to Assemble.

Otherwise, you can tell Farrakhan yourself, that he cannot have his "Million More" march.

What's Good for the Goose is good for the Gander...
"I have on this board written pages and pages pointing out the science, and I will be dammed if I am going to attempt to reach closed minds that donít even know how to use a reference library." -emsparks (Fenton E. Magill, dec. 1/25/07 - Love you Dad)

#73 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:18 PM

Zwolf666, on Oct 19 2005, 02:59 PM, said:

****** You can think that if it comforts you to do so, but my agenda is hardly the same as their agenda.  I'm not out to come down on somebody who's innocent and not trying to hurt anyone else.  They chose their path.  If somebody joins a group whose intent is to persecute someone else, then they don't get my respect.  I don't see standing up to criminals like that as infringing on their rights - I see it as consequences. 

I saw a movie like that...the name was Minority Report I think.


Quote

******  We just have different ideas of when their agenda starts.  I'm wanting to keep it down before it gets overblown and the wrong people get hurt.  You'd rather wait until they start chopping heads, while I'd rather crack down on them while they're still just trying to intimidate and provoke.  The history of the Nazis shows us that it's a little too late when they get to the point of marching people into ovens.  I'm saying deal with them before they metastasize.   You don't have to agree; no one's asking you to join in.

Actually...and I can see where this would be difficult to grasp...I'm in favor of punishing people for crimes they've committed...not stripping them of their rights as a citizen because I'm afraid of them.

Quote

******** I'm glad that one of us is impressed with you. :)

Likewise.

Quote

******* We've gone from "I don't have a dog in that fight" to "sweating for liberty."  Quite a dichotomy there.  I haven't been in the military, I admit, but there are other ways to sweat for liberty.   I've fought a few of these guys you're defending and stood up for people they were trying to hurt.   And maybe that's why I don't treasure their precious "rights" as much as you do.  To me, "rights" are only as valuable as what one does with them.  These guys aren't using theirs for anyone's good, and so you'll just have to forgive me for not treasuring them.  If you see it differently, then that's fine; you do what works for you.  I'm not looking for you to approve of my viewpoint.  It wouldn't mean anything to me if you did, anyway.

Because people with your attitude concerns me...I grew up in an environment where the proto-fundies of the 50's, 60's and 70's honestly felt it was ok to infringe on someone's rights because that person "wasn't doin' what the Bible said was right."  Now, it's just the same song, different verse...you want to infringe on someone's rights because you don't like what they say. I see no difference.

I once swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.  I'm a civilian now, but when the weather's pretty I still like to play that game. ;)

Edited by CoyoteUgly, 19 October 2005 - 03:19 PM.

The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#74 darthsikle

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:22 PM

********************************************************************************
***************************************************************************admit it CU, you were at the rally
Goodbye.

#75 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:26 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 19 2005, 03:22 PM, said:

********************************************************************************
***************************************************************************admit it CU, you were at the rally

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nope.  Got better things to do.  Halloween's coming up and I have to make plans for the Great Sacrifice of 1001 virgins to Satan. ;)
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#76 darthsikle

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:39 PM

******************************************Where would you find 1,001 virgins pray tell??
Goodbye.

#77 Zwolf

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:40 PM

Quote

I saw a movie like that...the name was Minority Report I think.

*** Skipped it.  Can't stand Tom Cruise.  And I'm not crazy about sci-fi.  I know the plot, though - some Phillip K. Dick thing.


Quote

Actually...and I can see where this would be difficult to grasp...I'm in favor of punishing people for crimes they've committed...not stripping them of their rights as a citizen because I'm afraid of them.

****** I'm not stripping them of their rights.  They can think whatever they want to, and they can say it, put up their posts, publish their fliers, plan out their RAHOWA concerts (oops, forgot, George Hawthorne wised up because he finally got a girlfriend).  That's all reasonable.  I won't like them for it, but I won't do any more than call them idiots, which is a reasonable response.  I'm just saying that if they march around trying to start riots, they shouldn't cry if they end up eating some curb.  Nobody has the right not to get treated like an a-hole unless they're not being an a-hole.

Quote

Because people with your attitude concerns me...

****** Unless you're a member of a hate group, it shouldn't.   I'm not planning to start any pogroms against 'em.  Just resistance should they show up.

Quote

I grew up in an environment where the proto-fundies of the 50's, 60's and 70's honestly felt it was ok to infringe on someone's rights because that person "wasn't doin' what the Bible said was right."

******* So did I.  Which is why I oppose the Nazis.  Ever read any of those Stormfront posts?  These guys are fundies, and they do think they're enforcing their twisted version of Biblical teachings. Unlike standard fundies, however, they target people and they use bats.  

Quote

Now, it's just the same song, different verse...you want to infringe on someone's rights because you don't like what they say. I see no difference.

******* I repeat: I don't give a damn what they say.  They can wrap themselves in their bedsheets, strap on their suspenders, lace up their Doc Martens and babble all they want about ZOG and the mud-people and any other damn thing.  Then they're just another bunch of noisy crackpots.  If they go out instigating and looking for a fight, though, then I'm happy for them to find one.

Quote

I once swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. I'm a civilian now, but when the weather's pretty I still like to play that game

******** I hope you get your own action figure. :)  

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"

#78 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:51 PM

But Z, you said:

Quote

What I was meaning is, if you let these guys get a foothold in your town, then pretty soon they'll be running it. Then it's a little too late to just tolerate them, because they'll be stomping you if you do something they don't like. The time to stop the snowball is while it's still at the top of the hill.

Which sounds to me like you'd like to curtail their 1st Amendment rights.
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#79 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:54 PM

Zwolf666, on Oct 19 2005, 03:40 PM, said:

******** I hope you get your own action figure. :) 

Cheers,

Zwolf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Better! I have an artist who has immortalized me. ;)

Shatna, from TK created this comic for me...

Posted Image
The Future...Unless Things Change.

And how am I to face the odds, of man's bedevilment and God's, I a stranger and afraid in a world I never made? ó A.E. Housman (1859-1936)

#80 Zwolf

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 04:15 PM

Quote

Which sounds to me like you'd like to curtail their 1st Amendment rights.

***** The article is about a riot caused by the Nazis marching through a black neighborhood, no?  That's action more than it is speech, and there's not much doubt what the goal of it is.

Tell me if there is a difference: if I post "I don't like you" here on the board, that's one thing.  You won't like it, you'll probably post "I don't like you, either," and... meh.   That's one thing.  It's free speech, and easy to shrug off, because what's the threat?  Nil.

Now, say I show up in your driveway (or the street in front of your house, if property is an issue) screaming about how I hate your guts.  Would you still say, "Well, it's nice to see you exercising your rights," or would you come out and make a good attempt at shutting me up?   Somehow I doubt you'd be as tolerant as you're expecting the targets of these Nazis to be.  And I know I wouldn't be expecting any different treatment.  If I show up in front of somebody's house screaming hate for them, then I'm asking for it.  

Everything has its limits.  I know where mine are in regards to Nazis.   You're willing to cut them X amount of slack, and I'm willing to cut them X-Y amount.  If it doesn't please ya, then it doesn't.  

Nice comic... but isn't the cartoon coyote infringing on the redhead's first ammendment rights there?  You might want to request an edit from the artist. ;)

Cheers,

Zwolf
"I've moved on and I'm feeling fine
And I'll feel even better
When your life has nothing to do with mine."
-Pittbull, "No Love Lost"

"There are things that I'd like to say
But I'm never talking to you again
There's things I'd like to phrase some way
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'd put you down where you belong
But I'm never talking to you again
I'd show you everywhere you're wrong
But I'm never talking to you again

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you

I'm never talking to you again
I'm never talking to you
I'm tired of wasting all my time
Trying to talk to you."
- Husker Du, "Never Talking To You Again"



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