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Libby Indicted over Plamegate

Libby Indited Valerie Plame 2005 CIA agent outed

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#21 Spectacles

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 03:38 PM

Kosh, on Oct 28 2005, 03:34 PM, said:

AS has been predicted by the political right, the charges have nothing to do wiht Plame, but are about the investigation.I hate to admit when Tucker Carlson is correct, but he called this on Bill Maurs show this week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't think those predictions were limited to the political right, Kosh. Just about everything I've read from the right to the left to middle predicted the same. Most people on the left were prediciting obstruction and perjury charges, too--as soon as everyone understood how hard it is to charge someone under the identities act that would have applied to the original leak.
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#22 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 03:45 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 01:26 PM, said:

I'm sure there are a lot, just not that many that lied under oath about it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Oooh how many people have died because of ANY of those.  Puhlease.

This is reality Greg.
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#23 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 03:50 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??  Her boss, the leader of the free world, asked for a hummer.  She did not have the capacity to decline, therefore it was rape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually my thoughts are that Ms Lewinski was hired by the Republicans to do this.  Which makes them into the most profitable pimps in the USA.

You make accusations so can I.
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#24 darthsikle

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 03:55 PM

Hibblette, on Oct 28 2005, 08:45 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 01:26 PM, said:

I'm sure there are a lot, just not that many that lied under oath about it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Oooh how many people have died because of ANY of those.  Puhlease.

This is reality Greg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So death is all that matters??  Your president can just lie under oath??  Nice country.


Hibblette, on Oct 28 2005, 08:50 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??  Her boss, the leader of the free world, asked for a hummer.  She did not have the capacity to decline, therefore it was rape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually my thoughts are that Ms Lewinski was hired by the Republicans to do this.  Which makes them into the most profitable pimps in the USA.

You make accusations so can I.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


At least my thoughts are based in reality
Goodbye.

#25 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 04:19 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 03:55 PM, said:

Hibblette, on Oct 28 2005, 08:45 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 01:26 PM, said:

I'm sure there are a lot, just not that many that lied under oath about it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Oooh how many people have died because of ANY of those.  Puhlease.

This is reality Greg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So death is all that matters??  Your president can just lie under oath??  Nice country.


Hibblette, on Oct 28 2005, 08:50 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??  Her boss, the leader of the free world, asked for a hummer.  She did not have the capacity to decline, therefore it was rape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually my thoughts are that Ms Lewinski was hired by the Republicans to do this.  Which makes them into the most profitable pimps in the USA.

You make accusations so can I.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


At least my thoughts are based in reality

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Supposedly your president can just lie because he's a Republican and a Good Chrisitian Boy.

Where is your Reality?  

Ms Lewinski was caught on tape by her friend (Ms Tripp-remember her) saying how much she LOVED Mr. Clinton.  That's not rape.

So Reality?

Uhm your forgetting what happened, how convenient.  But on this board I'll refresh your memory.

Edited by Hibblette, 28 October 2005 - 04:20 PM.

"There are many ways of going forward, but there is only one way of standing still."  FDR explaining why Liberals are so often divided and Conservatives are so often united.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."  Will Rogers

#26 Eskaminzim

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 04:32 PM

I was wondering if anyone could help me with this, because it seems like semantics (and I do realize that semantics is nine tenths of the law...or something like that. <G>)

People are saying that he wasn't indicted for outing Plame, but, from reading the indictment, he WAS indicted for lying when he said that he DIDN'T.

So, if you're indicted for lying when you say you didn't out someone, that means that, in truth, you did.  (Shades of I, Mudd, anyone?)

It seems to me, reading the indictment in full, that the jury accepts the fact that Libby DID 'out' Plame.  They're just not sure that outing her was essentially illegal, and that's why the investigation is ongoing.

Am I anywhere near the basepads on this one?

#27 Timon

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 04:56 PM

I think the Bush administration needs to sweat about this indictment. Especially since the investigation is not over. After all, it's interesting to note that it's always the coverup that brings the administration down. Not the actual crime in question.
The Nixon administration wasn't brought down by the burglary of the Watergate hotel, but the coverup of it.
Clinton's indictment wasn't over the fact that he had an affair with Monica Lewinsky but that he lied about it.
This is consistent with what we've seen in scandals for a long time. It's always the coverup that gets them in the end.
Of course the question begs, why do they feel they have to lie? We know why Nixon and Clinton were lying and what they were attempting to coverup. However, I suspect we've yet to hear the full story connected to these recent indictments.

#28 Rhea

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 05:31 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 12:30 PM, said:

If the president, the leader of the free world, told me to drop to my knees, I just might have to do it myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Gotta feel sorry for you, then.  :ninja:
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#29 offworlder

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 05:32 PM

Quote

I was wondering if anyone could help me with this, because it seems like semantics (and I do realize that semantics is nine tenths of the law...or something like that. <G>)

People are saying that he wasn't indicted for outing Plame, but, from reading the indictment, he WAS indicted for lying when he said that he DIDN'T.

So, if you're indicted for lying when you say you didn't out someone, that means that, in truth, you did. (Shades of I, Mudd, anyone?)

it doesn't work quite like that, it's more literal - it's about exactly what he said, and that Fitz decides there is enough evidence to prove that exactly what he said, was knowingly false.

the exact statements he said, to investigators and to the grand jury, were not about outting someone confidential, but rather from whom he got it and precisely when - the indictment alleges that when he stated that he got her name 'from reporters' and what date that was, and that at that date he didn't know Wilson had a wife or who she was, and that he was the end of a train of gossip, was false: that he did in fact know before his statement date that Wilson had a wife, her name, and what she was, and that he did not get it from reporters but in fact had heard it before that date from others, insiders, officials. Fitz says he was the start of the train, not the end like some innocent. (who shouldn't have named or gossiped anyway even if he was at the end, my take)

This indictment is not about divulging her name or capacity- it's about allegedly being caught in lies to the grand jury, obstruction of justice.

Edited by offworlder, 28 October 2005 - 05:34 PM.

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#30 BklnScott

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 05:54 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, of course she did.  This is not a matter of opinion.  She was of age to give consent, and she did so.  You don't want to take her word for it, that's your issue.  

Did he--as you say, the leader of the free-world--take advantage of her, the lowly intern?  No question about it, but that's a far cry from rape, and to equate the two is insulting to rape survivors.

More to the point, equating an illcit blow job with "damaging national security" during wartime, as the Libby indictment charges, is insulting to every American.

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#31 BklnScott

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 05:58 PM

Call Me Robin, on Oct 28 2005, 03:28 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 07:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??  Her boss, the leader of the free world, asked for a hummer.  She did not have the capacity to decline, therefore it was rape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


There is no proof that he forced her to do anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nor is there even any allegation that he "forced her to do anything."

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#32 MuseZack

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:24 PM

Does it make me a bad liberal to say I felt bad for the poor guy, hobbling on his crutches, knowing he'd been hung out to dry by his comrades?   On a purely human level it's quite sad, especially since Libby seems much more like the earnest policy wonk/ cultured novelist than an anti-intellectual political hack like Rove or the other Bushies.
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#33 BklnScott

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:24 PM

Timon, on Oct 28 2005, 04:56 PM, said:

I think the Bush administration needs to sweat about this indictment. Especially since the investigation is not over. After all, it's interesting to note that it's always the coverup that brings the administration down. Not the actual crime in question.
The Nixon administration wasn't brought down by the burglary of the Watergate hotel, but the coverup of it.
Clinton's indictment wasn't over the fact that he had an affair with Monica Lewinsky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I should hope not, since there's nothing illegal about having an affair.  And, in any case, Clinton was not indicted, he was impeached by the House of Representatives on a party line vote where the maximum penalty would've been the loss of his job.  

By contrast, Libby will be arrested.  He will stand trial in Federal Criminal Court, and if found guilty, he will go to prison for 30 years.  (Though, of course, Bush would pardon him.)

Edited by _ph, 28 October 2005 - 06:26 PM.

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#34 prolog

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:35 PM

Spectacles, on Oct 28 2005, 07:18 PM, said:

Anyway, what the heck does Monica Lewinsky have to do with Scooter Libby lying to federal agents, committing perjury before the grand jury, and obstructing justice? Those things are now all legal because of Clinton-Lewinsky?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


B-b-b-but Clinton!

#35 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:38 PM

MuseZack, on Oct 28 2005, 06:24 PM, said:

Does it make me a bad liberal to say I felt bad for the poor guy, hobbling on his crutches, knowing he'd been hung out to dry by his comrades?   On a purely human level it's quite sad, especially since Libby seems much more like the earnest policy wonk/ cultured novelist than an anti-intellectual political hack like Rove or the other Bushies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Oh sweety.  No.

It actually makes you the absolute Liberal.  It doesn't make you a bad liberal.  

It just says something about how good a person you are.

{{{{{Zack}}}}}}

Me on the other hand is thinking-ya know he's what 55?  Thirty years.  Will he take the fall on the presumption that he will be pardoned.  Remember the last prez that did that was a Republican and if it hadn't been for Carter's ineptitude then it could have been ages before the Republicans recovered from Watergate.

What a crap shoot.
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#36 Spectacles

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 07:06 PM

Quote

Zack: On a purely human level it's quite sad, especially since Libby seems much more like the earnest policy wonk/ cultured novelist than an anti-intellectual political hack like Rove or the other Bushies.

I feel for what he's going through--on a purely human level.

However, I can't forget that Libby, a former student of neocon Paul Wolfowitz's, was one of the prime movers of the Iraq War. Thanks to their hubris, ideological blindness, and refusal to consider any evidence that didn't support their totally unrealistic notions that it would be an easy thing to topple Saddam, install Chalabi, and create a U.S.- friendly Iraq that would give us good deals on oil and permit us to build permanent bases, we're in the godawful mess we're in. This is Libby's war as much as it is Bush's--maybe moreso. That's why he went after Wilson with such a vengeance.

So, to me, his suffering is sad but it's also a sign that there is maybe a little justice in the world. Lord knows Libby played a prominent role in creating a war that has caused over 2000 American service people's deaths, tens of thousands of serious injuries to them, deaths of at least tens of thousands of Iraqis, and strengthened Iran's hand in the region so that we'll probably have more hell to pay down the line.

I can rest a little easier tonight knowing that he resigned and won't be dispensing his advice in the White House. Now, if we could just get rid of the rest of the lot....
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#37 darthsikle

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 07:46 PM

I am a staunch republican and I don't feel bad for the guy.  He has to take one for the team.  You know what can happen when you take the job and the perks.
Goodbye.

#38 Hibblette

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 08:16 PM

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

I am a staunch republican and I don't feel bad for the guy.  He has to take one for the team.  You know what can happen when you take the job and the perks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Which is why the Christian Coalition and the Republicans to me has always been like oil and water.

Amazing. :hehe:
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#39 GiGi

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 08:20 PM

_ph, on Oct 28 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, of course she did.  This is not a matter of opinion.  She was of age to give consent, and she did so.  You don't want to take her word for it, that's your issue.  

Did he--as you say, the leader of the free-world--take advantage of her, the lowly intern?  No question about it, but that's a far cry from rape, and to equate the two is insulting to rape survivors.

More to the point, equating an illcit blow job with "damaging national security" during wartime, as the Libby indictment charges, is insulting to every American.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, most of the guys I know don't even consider blow jobs to be sex, they consider it therapy!
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#40 darthsikle

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:23 AM

GiGi, on Oct 29 2005, 01:20 AM, said:

_ph, on Oct 28 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

darthsikle, on Oct 28 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

*sigh*  Clinton took advantage of an intern.  Did she have the capacity to give consent??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yes, of course she did.  This is not a matter of opinion.  She was of age to give consent, and she did so.  You don't want to take her word for it, that's your issue.  

Did he--as you say, the leader of the free-world--take advantage of her, the lowly intern?  No question about it, but that's a far cry from rape, and to equate the two is insulting to rape survivors.

More to the point, equating an illcit blow job with "damaging national security" during wartime, as the Libby indictment charges, is insulting to every American.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, most of the guys I know don't even consider blow jobs to be sex, they consider it therapy!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:lol:
Goodbye.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Libby Indited, Valerie Plame, 2005, CIA agent outed

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