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US ONLY Death Penalty Poll

Crime Punishment Death Penalty Poll of EI'ers

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85 replies to this topic

Poll: Do you agree with the death penalty? (68 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you agree with the death penalty?

  1. Yes. (35 votes [51.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.47%

  2. No. (18 votes [26.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.47%

  3. I am definitively ambivalent (3 votes [4.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.41%

  4. I can't decide one way or the other (2 votes [2.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.94%

  5. Yes but not the way we do it (7 votes [10.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.29%

  6. I feel totally impassive (1 votes [1.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.47%

  7. Eh? I don't understand... (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Other (2 votes [2.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.94%

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#81 Nikcara

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:54 PM

The real problem is is that most of those neurological disorders I just mentioned never even get looked for, let alone treated.  And it seems that most juries don't care if the defendent DOES have a real medical problem.  They see only the actions, not the why.

I only believe in killing another if they are a direct threat to my life.  If someone comes at me with a knife, they are actively threatening my continued existance.  If I kill them as it happens, too bad for them.  If I run away, go to the cops. and get them thrown in jail, my window for justifibly killing them is gone.  Even if that person killed 10 other people, once in prison they are no longer an active threat and I simply can't find good enough reason to kill them.  Plenty of reasons to keep them IN jail, but that ultimate act is not something I feel that we have the right to inflict upon them.  And jails are so rarely broken out of that I'm worried about that, either, in all honesty.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#82 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 02:13 PM

To be honest, if LIFE incarceration was gaurenteed, escape was impossible and it was HUGELY cheaper than CP (I know it is in the US, but it didnt used to be in the UK... and I respected the UK system more) I would be up for that. As long as it was distinctly unpleasant for them in there. I still believe that prisons are too kushty. What happened to cold bare floors to sleep on, vegetable slop and scratchy wool uniforms?

Actualy, I like the idea of "coventry". Place murderers on a fortress island with no food, water, shelter etc etc. Dont remove food from the island, just dont supply any. And make sure the bu**ers never get off! Let them do as they will. They can kill eachother, they can create a society, they can live in peace and reform. Once they are there the only cost is keeping watch on the place and I'm sure te Navy will be more than obliging. You would have to have a seperate island for men and women cos you dont want innocent kiddies being born.
Saves killing em and saves spending money keeping em alive.

I was persuaded out of my interprison death tornament theory for violent criminals.
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#83 SparkyCola

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 11:35 AM

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but here is near-as-damn-it proof that since CP was abolished, homicide has DRAMATICALLY increased.

hardly 'near-as-damn-it', in fact I would argue it proves near-as-damn-it NOTHING to do with it. I asked you to compare rates in a place WITH and a place WITHOUT capital punishment. Am i to assume these were not included because they proved me correct?

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They all KNEW murder was unacceptable, they simply couldnt keep their fists to themselves.

Actually most criminals suffer from a condition which means they are unable to define right from wrong. They cannot tell the difference between giving to charity, and stealing from charity, in terms of morality.

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I was arguing that the type of difference and the motivation means that they should be treated differently. One kills for their own selfish ends, the other kills for the good of the millions of people under its charge.

This is what I'm talking about when I 'blow things out of proportion' (which of course by saying that allows you to entirely miss my point). The ends do not justify the means, (though oddly our legal system seems wired this way). It's the kind of "logic" you find in dystopian novels like The Handmaid's Tale and 1984. Why don't you take a look at what you are saying should be the ultimate goal- society, which is ironic for a 'there's-no-such-thing-as-society' conservative...but that aside- compare and contrast with The Handmaid's Tale, 1984- any dystopian novel like that- you could be the INSTIGATOR of Gilead and Oceania with an attitude like that - that the government has a licence to do whatever the hell it wants if it is what IT deems to be 'for the good of society'. As you can see it rather riles me some.

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This is where we fundamentaly disagree.

This is where you are fundamentally correct  :dontgetit:  sadly.

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There have been cases of people commiting suicide to avoid CP. Thus, they would rather take their own life than have someone else do it for them.

I believe your logic is flawed  :eh: . Does it not rather suggest that they would rather DIE than have all control taken away from them? The only reason they do it themselves is they have no choice. And...to be honest I think you know this.. As I say, control is simply the last thing they have. They can't even turn out the LIGHTS by themselves.

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But it NEVER excuses murder. Ever.

Man now we really are going round in circles. As I said, MANY times in fact, I'm not SAYING it excuses it- but then your example of a father murdering whoever raped his daughter has no excuse- and should, by your logic, be killed. But...that's NOT what you said. You said he DOES have an excuse. Hence hte utter contradiction in your argument. I'll say it again, you imply for SOME people- if it's very easy to understand why they did it, then it's easy enough to not kill them. If you can't see YOURSELF why they did it, clearly there is no other explanation than they are Satan themselves and thus should be murdered.


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I feel deeply for the two fathers, but more so for the innocent's father. and if I was the father of the criminal, I think it would be less sadness at the loss of the son and more deep anger at what my son had done.

Oh dear oh dear, why don't you ask your parents if - were you to kill someone then die yourself what htey would feel, devastation or anger? Both, most likely - but certainly an equal amount of devastation as ANYONE else. You can't stop love like that.

I feel equally for both fathers because what their SONS did doesn't make them love them any less. They both feel devastated. That pain cannot be justified by you.

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For one thing, I'm not a fan of the idea that some people are just wired at birth to be criminals or violent or whatever. If we're going to use that logic we should test for known indicators (low serotonin levels, ect) and just kill the children before they have a chance to grow up and kill someone. I don't think anyone is arguing for that.

exactly, Nikcara.

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Now, I know that there are many neurological problems that cause a person to become violent. Why should we put those people to death when we know that the violence was primarily caused by a medical reason? Wouldn't it make more sense to treat the problem? If someone has aggression due to low serotonin, why shouldn't we give them SSRIs? Or give antieplileptic medication to people with temporal lobe siezures (I can't find any good websites that don't require payment for info on these disorders, but if you can find the book Biological Foundations of Human Behavior by J. Wilson you can get a lot of good info on these and other disorders).

I'm also not saying that just because they are sick they shouldn't have any sort of punishment, or shouldn't be watched. While I do believe they deserve to have their freedom taken away, I also believe that if they get released again then someone should do checkups (at least for a while) to make sure they continue their medications.

Aside from all that, I simply can't believe it is ever right to kill someone else who isn't immediatly trying to kill you. There keeps being talk of just getting rid of people who kill others, without realizing that it puts them on the same level as those killers.

Ah, couldn't have said it better :hugs:

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Actually, I like the idea of "coventry". Place murderers on a fortress island with no food, water, shelter etc etc. Dont remove food from the island, just dont supply any. And make sure the bu**ers never get off! Let them do as they will. They can kill each other, they can create a society, they can live in peace and reform. Once they are there the only cost is keeping watch on the place and I'm sure te Navy will be more than obliging. You would have to have a separate island for men and women cos you don't want innocent kiddies being born.
Saves killing 'em and saves spending money keeping em alive.

No offence Schmox but I think this is a ludicrous idea on many levels. However, I hear what you are saying. Personally I think hard labour or PREFERABLY- doing something actually USEFUL would be nice. They could at LEAST farm for their OWN food and thus not need food paid for. I think having them sitting there is a major waste of resources. On Voyager, when Tom was in prison, they had prisoners fixing stuff up, but I think that's a little risky, heh. ah...Tom :love: :wub: ok enough swooning....anyways, waste of resources, stupid.

Sparky
Able to entertain a thought without taking it home to meet the parents

#84 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 01:46 PM

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For one thing, I'm not a fan of the idea that some people are just wired at birth to be criminals or violent or whatever. If we're going to use that logic we should test for known indicators (low serotonin levels, ect) and just kill the children before they have a chance to grow up and kill someone. I don't think anyone is arguing for that.

No one wants that. But you dont punish BEFORE  the crime, becuase there is always a chance (a BIG chance) the crime will not be committed.

Sparky, my good friend,

You love your fellow humans. You see the best in people. You want what is best for the individual.
I am diffarent. I have a fundamental HATRED of our species. The terrible things we have done for me out weight the "good". And what good have we really done? Art, science, religion, architecture, history.... these are all good in terms of humanity, but irrelevant in terms of the world. We are causing global warming, we are destroying natural habitats, we are acting like Gods over the other creatures of this world. If someone here and now told me I could click my fingers and reverse human evolution and make us into bog standard apes again, without the possibility of us re-evolving, I would. I would die if I had to to save this planet. I would risk another species taking our place cos I want to give the world another chance.
So now you can maybe see why I dont take the "save everyone, we have no right to kill" attitude.
I guess it seems like the desire to remove "undesireables" from society is at odds with the fact I hate humans, cos I guess humans are the only creatures with that concept. But still. I cant explain it. I think everyone should lead good, virtuous lives. We have been given a wonderful planet, and we could do wonderful things to help it *grow* woth us, to keep it lush and beautiful. But we dont. The only way I can see of giving our world a chance is to wipe out those who screw it up.

Now, before people suggest I want to be a baby killer, or a 1984 esqe dictator, I would point out that I know such a policy is evil (being a human concept, I can use this term) and extremely draconian. But my attitude to the whole thing certianly doesnt endear me to those who wreck the machine. There are people out there who could really help this world, who are innocent, and anyone who destroys those lives isnt wanted in my world. But again, great sweeping statements not taking into account extenuating circumstances. The execution of those who are BLATANTLY a willing danger to society, who have no compassion, no remorse, those who desire death and feed off it (Such people DO exist. True, I cannot prove they do, but no-one can prove they dont. And the evidence suggests they do), is as close as I will allow myself to get to these draconian policies. Even I have some compassion. Some sense of justice. And a rather acute one.

Sparky, you have fought well and pushed me to the limits of rational debate. You are one of the most caring and emotionaly rational individuals I have ever met. I am a broken creature in comparison to you. *laughs* I have even had those closest to me point out how f***ed up my mind is. So, for being good, gentle, loving and compassionate, I salute you.
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#85 Schmokie_Dragon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 01:51 PM

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America still had 5 times as many murders per head of population as did Britain in 1997, whilst Singapore had 15 times fewer murders per head of population than Britain.

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So if you do it wrong, it goes wrong (sorry US) but if you do it right, it works. Doesnt that generaly apply to everything in life? If it isnt working, change it until it does. Dont just scrap the entire idea.

I present this as a comparison of a country without (us) vs a country with (Singapore)
According to this, Sparky, you are wrong. Singapore is a thriving, modern, civilised country. It is on a par with us and the US. So two like countries, one with and one without. One has 15 times fewer murders per head than the other. Which one? The one with.
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#86 SparkyCola

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 01:53 PM

{{{{{{{{{{{Schmokie}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Naturally it is very difficult to compare such a thing worldwide, for a variety of reasons including:

Varying levels of reporting and different recording procedures.

Different categorisations of particular crimes by the police.

The varying availability and access to police statistics (and demographic and other explanatory data).

However, according to a statistical analysis site, nationmaster.com, this is what the list looks like for the crime of murder, which is a crime punishable by death in CP countries (hence why i chose it obviously :rolleyes:) :

http://www.nationmas...h-T/cri_mur_cap

To summarise, murder:

United States is number 24. That's in between Bulgaria and Armenia, incidentally. Then scroll down a bit and you have #40, France, #42 Iceland surprisingly...lovely Canada is number 44, UK are number 46. Netherlands #51, Ireland is #55, Japan 60, and Qatar #62

This is an attempt to compare like wealth with like wealth. It would be meaningless to compare a very poor country to a well-off country, for obvious reasons.

(Annoyingly it didn't have Singapore on it. )

At the very least I'm sure you can agree that the rates are comparable, roughly equal, almost as if to suggest that CP has no efffect whatsoever on crime.

My brother suggested that the US difficulty in catching criminals means they have to make an example out of them when they DO. Countries which are better at catching criminals can afford to take the moral high-ground. This would seem to be supported by the poorer countries = CP correlation, and of course vice versa, but he had no specific evidence with regard to the suggestion that US police don't catch criminals very often, nonetheless i thought i'd put it out there.

Sparky
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