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Bushes casualties in the "War on Christmas"

Bush 2005 Christmas Greeting Political correctness

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#41 Shoshana

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 10:59 PM

FYI - Channukah isn't a 'winter' or 'solstice' related holiday. It's a festival to celebrate the Maccabees leading the Israelites to victory over the Syrians and the Hellenic Jews and the miracle that occurred when the Maccabees liberated the Temple in Jerusalem - the sacred oil that should have burned for only a day in the Menorah lasted 8 days, long enough to for them to aquire more sacred oil.

It just happened to occur at this time of year.

more info ... http://www.chabad.or....asp?AID=102978

The Hellenic Jews were all into assimilation, taking on the holidays and practices of the Greeks. Which makes the celebration of Christmas by Jewish people in the US all the more ironic.

#42 Rhys

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 12:04 AM

SparkyCola, on Dec 8 2005, 06:07 PM, said:

I think that it's sheer and utter foolishness. If you are a Christian, send me an invitation to celebrate Christmas with you, regardless of my own religion. If you are Jewish, send me a Happy Hanakah and I'll be very happy. Invite me to celebrate Winter Soltice, Yule, Satur-freaking-nalia for all I care- or indeed, Happy Holidays - whatever!! If you ARE that religion, what's the problem with celebrating that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well said, Sparky!

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#43 Cheile

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:50 AM

_ph, on Dec 8 2005, 07:21 PM, said:

You know what else is getting old?  So-called "good" Christians getting pissed if anyone dares to notice that a vocal -- and rather large (not to mention, well-funded and politically powerful) -- number of people who share your faith (if not your interpretation of it) are giving it a really bad name. 

IMHO, "Good Christians" should clean up their own house before they go shooting the messenger.

spare me the "you should spend all your attention on the infighting" lecture.  it is better to spend our time speaking louder than the fundie hypocrites to show who is in the right here.  if you're going to insist we do it your way, then you're going to have to cough up some sure-fire plan to give to the average person to effectively and permanently dispose of people like Pat Robertson, the fake Reverend Phelps along with his little cult of inbreds, and their ilk. :sarcasm:

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#44 Zwolf

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 09:05 AM

Quote

Quote

QUOTE(Zwolf666 @ Dec 8 2005, 5:11 PM)
I absolutely know for a fact that there is no god


Your proof Zwolf?

**** I meant it as more of a personal fact - there's no doubt in my mind.  But that doesn't mean I could prove it to anyone else.  I have a few times before, but it takes a pretty long argument - I'd need my notes. :)  And I wouldn't try it here, because nobody here seems to be a jerk about their religion.  I don't try to wreck anybody's faith unless they're using it as a weapon.  If it's serving them well and they're cool about it, then there's no need to try to change anything. I don't think anybody around here has that problem, so there's no point in my trying to wreck it for 'em, even if I could. :)

Cheers,

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#45 Kosh

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 09:31 AM

May they feed on each other.
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#46 BklnScott

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 11:30 AM

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 03:50 AM, said:

_ph, on Dec 8 2005, 07:21 PM, said:

You know what else is getting old?  So-called "good" Christians getting pissed if anyone dares to notice that a vocal -- and rather large (not to mention, well-funded and politically powerful) -- number of people who share your faith (if not your interpretation of it) are giving it a really bad name. 

IMHO, "Good Christians" should clean up their own house before they go shooting the messenger.

spare me the "you should spend all your attention on the infighting" lecture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If you will spare US the persecution complex, that's a deal.

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#47 Rhea

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 11:45 AM

trikay, on Dec 8 2005, 01:40 PM, said:

Cheile, on Dec 8 2005, 09:26 PM, said:

and Schmokie Dragon did make reference to the "stealing"--she simply used a different term ("pinched").

to which i will repeat what i said.  everyone stole from everyone else thousands of years ago.  be quiet, get over it and celebrate what you want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm not sure Schmokie meant in in that way exactly....but I can't say for sure

I took the comment as meaning that there are a variety of different cultures that celebrate some sort of holiday at this time of year and that the early Christians placed Christmas at that time, (not sure of the reason tho).  I'm thinking the comment was intended more to illustrate the diverse history of the holiday season. But that's the way I read it.

And you are right..all through history people have adopted/borrowed/co-opted other cultures holidays etc.

And no, I don't think that all fundamentalists are the same any more than I believe all persons of a particular political persusasion are the exactly the  same.  Lots of diversity in beliefs and actions within a group as much as there is amongst all peoples

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



One of the reasons Christianity is so widespread is the ability to merge the old religions with theirs by the simple expedient of co-opting the old holidays so that people would still be celebrating as they always had at the same time of year. They used other, less pleasant ways (the way in which Chrisitianity established itself in Ireland, for example, was not so pleasant and involved some browbeating and some outright persecution of non-Christians) too, but that's irrelevant to this discussion and only of historic interest.

The Church (and I'm specifically pointing at the Catholic church here, since it was the ONLY church for hundreds upon hundreds of years) has always used the expedient method of allowing locals to told their religion into Christianity (and it's happened *everywhere* - all you have to do is look at Mexico, Central and South America to see bits of their old religion happily merged with the new).

There's nothing wrong with it, but it IS a fact and yelling at people for restating the obvious is pointless. They did it, they did on purpose, and it worked.  End of story.  I fail to see why restating a fact is offensive.

I would also think that anyone reading this thread would understand that we were talking about the specific right-wing fundies who are the loudest kids on the block in the Republican party these days and not all Christians.

Edited by Rhea, 09 December 2005 - 03:42 PM.

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#48 Cheile

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:13 PM

_ph, on Dec 9 2005, 09:30 AM, said:

If you will spare US the persecution complex, that's a deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


oh so we can't express our frustration?  how nice.  then if that's the case, you stop praising the whiners and bashers.  none of this would happen if it weren't for the "OMG so oppressed!" attitude i keep reading every time these articles come up.

because taking our rights away to supposedly suit yours isn't going to make matters any better.

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#49 Nonny

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:36 PM

enTranced, on Dec 8 2005, 10:28 AM, said:

Nonny, on Dec 8 2005, 05:26 PM, said:

No need to apologize.  Many of your fellow liberals are right there with you.  I managed to reason my way out of the dilemma by figuring that sooner or later, W was bound to do something right, but that I could safely assume that it couldn't possibly be for the right reasons.  :p 

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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enTranced

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Better record than Dubya's.  :rolleyes:  

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#50 Rhea

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:46 PM

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 12:13 PM, said:

_ph, on Dec 9 2005, 09:30 AM, said:

If you will spare US the persecution complex, that's a deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


oh so we can't express our frustration?  how nice.  then if that's the case, you stop praising the whiners and bashers.  none of this would happen if it weren't for the "OMG so oppressed!" attitude i keep reading every time these articles come up.

because taking our rights away to supposedly suit yours isn't going to make matters any better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'd be interested to know what rights you've lost. As far as I know, you are free to speak your mind as often as you like and you are certainly free to practice your religion any way you see fit.

The only thing you're not free to do is shove your religion down the throats of people who don't share your beliefs, and I don't believe "freedom to proselytize" or "freedom to make everybody Christian" was ever put into the Constitution.
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#51 Nonny

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:00 PM

Schmokie_Dragon, on Dec 8 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

To be honest, if it wasnt for Christmas, there would not be a public holiday at this time of year....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There have been public holidays at this time of year for many millennia.  :)  

Cheile, on Dec 8 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

trikay, on Dec 8 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

I took the comment as meaning that there are a variety of different cultures that celebrate some sort of holiday at this time of year and that the early Christians placed Christmas at that time, (not sure of the reason tho).  I'm thinking the comment was intended more to illustrate the diverse history of the holiday season. But that's the way I read it.
if that's the case then everyone should be throwing fits at the Jews for Hanukkah....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hanukkah predates Christmas.  

Zwolf666, on Dec 8 2005, 02:11 PM, said:

This is more a silly tug-of-war not about anything being "stolen," but for who gets validation.  Some fundies - lacking real faith in their own religion - worry that if words leave the public arena, their god will die off.  If the public doesn't bow to them and give lip-service to their beliefs, then their beliefs will somehow fade.   And people without the religion, or of a different religion, act like they're going to be injured if they're forced to hear words from some other religion... 

Nobody can steal your thoughts, your feelings, or your faith.   Nobody should expect anyone to go out of their way to validate 'em for ya, either, though.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly!  

Nonny
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#52 Cheile

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:35 PM

Quote

Hanukkah predates Christmas.

the point is not the date of origin, Nonny.  the point is no one complains about Hanukkah.

Rhea, on Dec 9 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

I'd be interested to know what rights you've lost. As far as I know, you are free to speak your mind as often as you like and you are certainly free to practice your religion any way you see fit.

the rights of nons haven't been taken away either.  there are no laws forbidding Buddhist temples/synagogues/Muslim temples/the use of forests/the right to set up an altar in one's own house.

Quote

The only thing you're not free to do is shove your religion down the throats of people who don't share your beliefs, and I don't believe "freedom to proselytize" or "freedom to make everybody Christian" was ever put into the Constitution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


i don't do any ministering (i suppose that's what you call "shoving it down others' throats").  i be friends with people because of who they are not what path they follow.

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#53 SparkyCola

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 06:25 PM

Cheile, Rhea, _ph - some calm please ? :(

{{{{{{{{Cheile, Rhea and _ph}}}}}}}}}

Cheile- Though I'm sure your passion just got a little away with you, your post did seem a little provocative. Trying to word your post carefully can be difficult but in the OT is really important. Your post was also somewhat offensive to fundamentalists too, they have a right to believe what they like as well, even if you disagree. Still, I know all too well what it's like to be generalised in that way, in the UK 'Christianity' seems to mean 'Catholicism', no offence intended if you are Catholic, but they are DIFFERENT. I can't stand people arguing against Christianity as a whole using arguments which only apply to Catholicism, because that's exactly why I'm NOT Catholic. Sorry, little rant there :rolleyes: Still I hope you can settle your differences with _ph :hugs:

_ph - Though you were likely just reacting to the arguably abrasive appearance of Cheile's post, but let me say this: fundamentalism is a different religion from whatever Cheile is (to be presumptuous :rolleyes: ) - What right would she have to tell them how to live their lives any more than telling non-Christians how to live their lives? Perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning there :eh: Although Cheile's post was indeed rather passionate, I believe what she was trying to say was 'Please don't generalise by making 'fundamentalists' and 'Christians' synonymous, because that's extremely unfair.'  I can understand why you reacted the way you did, but I'm sure Cheile didn't mean it to come across in the way you took it. :hugs:

Come on guys, whatever religion or non-religion you happen to be, we all need a happy warming festival in the middle of Winter, let's not argue over something so positive :)

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#54 SparkyCola

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 06:27 PM

Sorry, double post.

To make it worthwhile:

:harper:  :love:

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 09 December 2005 - 06:29 PM.

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#55 Rhea

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 06:53 PM

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM, said:

the point is not the date of origin, Nonny.  the point is no one complains about Hanukkah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Quote

i don't do any ministering (i suppose that's what you call "shoving it down others' throats").  i be friends with people because of who they are not what path they follow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nobody complains about Hanukah because no Jews jump up and down and complain if THEIR holiday doesn't get top billing - they simply don't expect it.

What I was asking you is exactly what rights of yours you believe are being violated, since that was an earlier statement you made. Do I have to go back and pull the quote? Here it is:

Quote

because taking our rights away to supposedly suit yours isn't going to make matters any better.

Edited by Rhea, 10 December 2005 - 10:55 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#56 BklnScott

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 08:05 PM

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

_ph, on Dec 9 2005, 09:30 AM, said:

If you will spare US the persecution complex, that's a deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


oh so we can't express our frustration?  how nice.

You can express whatever you'd like, but, in this context, you should expect people who disagree to say so.

Quote

  then if that's the case, you stop praising the whiners and bashers.

Where have I been "praising the whiners and bashers?"  On the contrary, I've been arguing for the hegemony of Christmas!  As I said above, nearly ALL the traditions we associate with Christmas come from dead pagan religions anyway.  Christians don't believe in them anymore than non-Christians do, so everyone should feel free to celebrate it in whatever way they see fit (including religious).  It's fun.   :)  

And I'd ask you to produce some kind of proof  to back up the wild assertion that Christians are being "bashed" in the first place.  I have a friend who was attacked on the street in Williamsburg and LOST AN EYE because his attackers perceived him to be gay.  That's what I think of as "bashing."  Matthew Shepherd was the victim of gay "bashing."  By that measure, Christian "bashing" went out of style -- what? -- sixteen hundred years ago?
              

Quote

  none of this would happen if it weren't for the "OMG so oppressed!" attitude i keep reading every time these articles come up.

It seems to me the only "whining" about being "oppressed" on this issue is coming from Christians (Bill O'Reilly, John Gibson, William Donohue, et al) rather than being directed at them. If you can show me an example (from this thread or elsewhere), I'll be happy to respond more directly to it.    

Quote

because taking our rights away to supposedly suit yours isn't going to make matters any better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Again, I have made no such argument.  

Sparky Cola said:

Cheile, Rhea, _ph - some calm please ? :sad:

I'm perfectly calm, but what did Rhea do?    :lol:

Sparky Cola said:

]Cheile- Though I'm sure your passion just got a little away with you, your post did seem a little provocative. Trying to word your post carefully can be difficult but in the OT is really important.

Well, wait.  She (she?) has a right to post her disagreements here, too, just as I have a right to respond to them, and we both have a right--within limits--to get heated if we disagree with each other.  Not vulgar, or vicious, or racist--but heated.    I think we're all a little jumpy in OT lately.  It seems strange to me that we're content to let debates get more heated in the Reviews forum than in the one dealing with things that actually matter... (like Christmas!   :hehe:).  

Quote

Come on guys, whatever religion or non-religion you happen to be, we all need a happy warming festival in the middle of Winter, let's not argue over something so positive smile.gif

That was kinda my point.

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#57 Shoshana

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:29 AM

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 03:35 PM, said:

Quote

Hanukkah predates Christmas.

the point is not the date of origin, Nonny.  the point is no one complains about Hanukkah.



Mmmm I think the reason no one complains about Channukah that there's nothing  to complain about. Exactly what about Channukah is there to complain about? That it's not a Christian holiday? That it occurs roughly at the same time as Christmas?

That Jewish kids in the US get gifts?

Channukah isn't in competition with Christmas. The holidays have nothing to do with each other.

'shana

Edited by Shoshana, 10 December 2005 - 12:31 AM.


#58 tennyson

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 03:13 AM

Quote

By that measure, Christian "bashing" went out of style -- what? -- sixteen hundred years ago?

Speaking strictly as a historian it depends upon what kind of Christian you are. The Albegensin cities were crushed and thier populations slaughtered in the 11th and 12th centuries, whole cities full of Anabaptists were put to the sword during the 16th and 17th centuries, the Protestant-Catholic 30 Years War killed something like 15 percent of the population of Bohemia in the 17th century, and then we have the Protestant-Catholic portion of the "troubles" in Ireland that continues a long tradition of sectarian violence in the isles from the time of Henry VIII onward with his dissolution of the monestaries and establishment of the Anglican Church.
If you want a more global perspective right now muslim vs Christian violence and vice versa is rampant in certain sections of Indonesia, the majorly Christian and animist south Sudenese have been slaughtered in Sudan for years, part of the massive interethnic/religous death match that was the Balkans in the 1990s was both Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic and both factions vs. Muslims with each side committing atrocities, within the last 5 years there have been several stories of Christians being executed or jailed in Pakistan, the same from the PRC for different reasons and it goes on. Religous persecution hasn't gone out of style and that includes some pretty graphic Christian bashing along with the same in  Muslim bashing, Hindu bashing, Buddist bashing and the PRC's favorite Fulan Gong bashing.
So both interfaith and extrafaith violence exists still on a global scale even if it is no longer such a great issue in the majority of the industrialized West.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#59 BklnScott

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 10:40 AM

Shoshana, on Dec 10 2005, 12:29 AM, said:

Cheile, on Dec 9 2005, 03:35 PM, said:

Quote

Hanukkah predates Christmas.

the point is not the date of origin, Nonny.  the point is no one complains about Hanukkah.


Channukah isn't in competition with Christmas.

'shana

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why are you guys just assumin that "no one" complains about Chanuka when it's clear that anti-semites DO -- and it's EXACTLY because they believe, stupidly, that "Chanuka is in competition with Christmas."  (You can't use logic with these people).

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#60 BklnScott

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 10:49 AM

tennyson, on Dec 10 2005, 03:13 AM, said:

Quote

By that measure, Christian "bashing" went out of style -- what? -- sixteen hundred years ago?

Speaking strictly as a historian it depends upon what kind of Christian you are.

I don't think we can include Christian on Christian violence, but I'd forgotten about the incidents in Pakistan (the Christmas Eve church bombing, for example).  Still, these are isolated incidents that hardly reflect, or even impact, the overwhelming place of power Chrsitianity occupies in the Western World.  

Cheile is claiming there is "harrassment," "oppression," and "bashing" going on right here and now -- over Christmas.  Which was, and remains, bollocks.

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